the places the protesters occupy...is my lawn..its not government lawn...its public...or better said....nobody owns any of this shit...
It is owned by the public, and the majority of the public, if this Forum is indicative, want them out. The government is merely the tool that the public imbues with the force of law to act on their behalf. Quite simple really . . .
we are talking about a protest for human rights...and you are defending the system that takes them..
No, he is defending a system which actually enshrined them. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drafted by a Canadian, or don't you watch those "Heritage Moments" on TV.
there are some people in this world who agree.....you just said....the rich can protest...but the poor cannot
The members of the Occupy groups are not exactly what I would call poor.
the message i think is clear humans around the world are no longer accepting the barrier we grew up to believe....they are demanding change....they don't know what the change will be....but they demand it..and won't budge with out it.....
How can you demand anything if you do not know what it is? A baby cries when it is upset. It cannot articulate to Mommy and Daddy why it is upset, so all it can do is cry . . . that is the approximate level of thinking you are attributing to the movement with that comment.
im not saying this and im not an expert on the movement but i understand it....and i think some people who support it but don't understand are still correct and not hypocritical....because they know its 'good' or feel it is....
but i don't think a lot of people want to accept what the protesters want...
Most people have little interest in what the Occupy movement wants because there is little to no articulation of what those things are. It is like their ridiculous chant:
What do we want? CHANGE
When do we want it? NOW
Oh all right then, Starting tomorrow our entire economic system is gone. We're starting over . . . you, over there in the wool jacket with the Starbucks latte, gimme the keys to your car. Whatta you mean it's yours . . . says who? You paid for it? That was the old system, mate . . . we're starting over, and I want to start with a Lexus.
fear of anarchy as a result of questioning democracy...is not a rational fear....
People question Democracy all the time . . . they're called elections, and it's why so many people want to have them for themselves. why is this so hard for you to understand.
Most people have little interest in what the Occupy movement wants because there is little to no articulation of what those things are. It is like their ridiculous chant:
What do we want? CHANGE
When do we want it? NOW
Oh all right then, Starting tomorrow our entire economic system is gone. We're starting over . . . you, over there in the wool jacket with the Starbucks latte, gimme the keys to your car. Whatta you mean it's yours . . . says who? You paid for it? That was the old system, mate . . . we're starting over, and I want to start with a Lexus.
Great post!
I see people posting on other forums about their idea of change. A lot of the time it is "once we get rid of government let's pick people to form groups and decide how things should be done.". Duuuh, that's exactly what we do today, we pick people (i.e. elect them) to form groups (i.e. committees and govt departments) and they decide (on our behalf) how things should work. The logic of this whole thing breaks down whenever it is analyzed in any way.
not really different than an unelected and unaccountable group running our economy into the ground and making laws that serve corporations and not the people.
we are protesting the concepts of 'little guy'...we don't want little guys......that implies big guys...we don't want that division...
Too bad . . . that is the way of the world. Some people have more, some less . . . whether it is money, brains, physical power, or political pull.
i would like to point out how faced with this change we go straight to a question on capitalism....what about business or our way of living..
It is all part and parcel of the same thing. A capitalist system allows people to achieve a measure of success commensurate with the risk they are prepared to take to achieve it. Those who are not comfortable with such risks can content themselves with a more passive, yet secure existence. To put it in poker terms, we are not all betrthanphil . . . but we can invest in him and thereby profit from the risks he takes.
although we know no other way...these people believe we shouldn't have to fear poverty......especially when 90% of the money is held by 10 percent of the population (i made that stat up but its quite well known whatever the numbers are) and the people who own most of that money basically invented it with things like the fed res. and world bank..
There are other ways, they just do not work as well. If you want to look at one of those "other" economic systems, check out Cuba. Hell Darb, even the Commies aren't Commies anymore.
im guessing im the only one who sees this isn't getting wrapped up.....
Oh, this will get wrapped up . . . probably before Christmas, too.
I see people posting on other forums about their idea of change. A lot of the time it is "once we get rid of government let's pick people to form groups and decide how things should be done.". Duuuh, that's exactly what we do today, we pick people (i.e. elect them) to form groups (i.e. committees and govt departments) and they decide (on our behalf) how things should work. The logic of this whole thing breaks down whenever it is analyzed in any way.
Good point, especially when the kitchen staff at Occupy Toronto went on a 1 day strike to protest the fact that numerous homeless and other folks were dropping by for free eats, and they felt that they were being overworked. The derelicts and homeless aren't part of the 99%? Seems elitist to me . . .
You keep blaming the "way we were brought up" and "how the institution taught us". Now I'm a big fan of lateral thinking, and challenging traditions for tradition's sake.. but you need to remember, that there are rules that in place, often for a very good fucking reason.
yes because our society is corrupt to the core...we need them...and those very rules keep us in the state we are in.....im not proposing we drop them....just admitting we have a horrible setup for this world.
Two people that I have heard of have died during these protests, one due to drug overdose.
Mark
again tho overdose and addiction is one of the issues of occupy Vancouver, like thats what they are protesting about....the fact that someone died of od there is the issuse....not the protest....people die like that on Van streets everyday...that day tho...she had a tent to sleep in...
i know it will flip you out for me to say but theres martyr-ism in it... thats how these people will go down...dieing for a cause...
. They are damaging land that taxpayer money (i.e. MY money) was used to purchase, landscape, and maintain and I would not be able to access it currently AND it will be ruined.
Mark
yes....in return for a chance at real freedom....real change....we complain about our material things....people in this world don't have those things...just watched a doc on water where bolivia people were forced to buy privatized water and there governement made laws they can't collect rain water...this is in the 80's.....
and when they revolted....the government put snipers in the building tops.....
these are the things people disagree with....from that right down to civil laws and the like.....
im not worried about our parks or wherever these people sit...its a small price to pay for a chance at change...
If the city bought a Christmas tree, and I believed that Christmas was responsible for the ills of the world, I'd still be arrested for chopping it up
Mark
yes ...but we are not talking about that....we are talking about protesting vs the government..... we are testing....our right.....which i don't believe we have...to peacefully stand in ..and ask for change.....
I see people posting on other forums about their idea of change. A lot of the time it is "once we get rid of government let's pick people to form groups and decide how things should be done.". Duuuh, that's exactly what we do today, we pick people (i.e. elect them) to form groups (i.e. committees and govt departments) and they decide (on our behalf) how things should work. The logic of this whole thing breaks down whenever it is analyzed in any way.
Agreed completely. The down and outs don't like their place in society so they want a redo with the 'withouts' running the show. This forum is a good representation of the 99% (and trust me, poker players in general are not for the most part in the 1% category of society)...very few support this stupidity, or the way they are going about it.
It's the act of terrorists Milo. And no matter how you look at it, peaceful or not...these 'terrorists' have 'demands' they want met or they'll hold 'hostages'. Whether it be city parks, streets, now the web etc. Sorry, the general population doesn't like giving in to terrorists, in any way shape or form.
BTW, I'm from London Ontario, the first city to throw them to the curb. The public here couldn't be more supportive of that move.
You're right, and it'll be by one of the protesters.
You cite examples of other countries where people are being kidnapped, "disappeared" and murdered in the street. This IS NOT what the 99% movement is portraying themselves as.... they're sitting there in their tents with iPhones and iPads, and complaining that a lot of the money is at the top... and that's why they can't have pretty things.
The fact that someone who's reading this thinks I'm just ignorant on the subject (and I am), that's my point. To protest, you need to win the majority's sympathy, that's not happening here.
I will admit that I can see why you are pro-occupy though darb... you argue just like them by talking a lot, sensationalizing everything, and not actually saying anything helpful.
People question Democracy all the time . . . they're called elections, and it's why so many people want to have them for themselves. why is this so hard for you to understand.
thats not questioning democracy..that IS democracy......
I see people posting on other forums about their idea of change. A lot of the time it is "once we get rid of government let's pick people to form groups and decide how things should be done.". Duuuh, that's exactly what we do today, we pick people (i.e. elect them) to form groups (i.e. committees and govt departments) and they decide (on our behalf) how things should work. The logic of this whole thing breaks down whenever it is analyzed in any way.
i agree tho....completely ....its just doing the same thing over and over and it will never work..
What I do like is on this forum, it is a TRUE representation, so you don't get a bunch of protesters sitting in the park blogging day and night making it seem like the movement has support, like in the comment sections of all newspaper websites. 99%? I'd guess less than 5% support.
Good point, especially when the kitchen staff at Occupy Toronto went on a 1 day strike to protest the fact that numerous homeless and other folks were dropping by for free eats, and they felt that they were being overworked. The derelicts and homeless aren't part of the 99%? Seems elitist to me . . .
these homeless people did not have the same upbringing or education as others.....they don't know better...they were not taught drive and work ethic....but im sure there are contradiction and this surely is one..but i think its part of the problem the movement would like to solve...
these homeless people did not have the same upbringing or education as others.....they don't know better...they were not taught drive and work ethic....but im sure there are contradiction and this surely is one..but i think its part of the problem the movement would like to solve...
Agreed completely. The down and outs don't like their place in society so they want a redo with the 'withouts' running the show. This forum is a good representation of the 99% (and trust me, poker players in general are not for the most part in the 1% category of society)...very few support this stupidity, or the way they are going about it.
ill bet you its very proportional to the people who have a clue of whats going on in this world.....
and knowing that drug addicts and homeless and the like imagrants...2nd 3rd world people are part of the 99% id think this forum doesn't rep it at all....no where near.....
thats not questioning democracy..that IS democracy......
i understand it well....
NO, YOU DON'T. An election is a question about democracy, namely: Are the citizens happy with the way things are going over the last few years. To use our last election as an example, the people of Quebec decided that they were NOT happy with things, and sent a boatload of NDP candidates to Ottawa to strive for change. As a side issue, seeing this all started with a video of Remembrance Day, I would like to relate something that you would not have seen/heard. I watched the Toronto Remembrance Day service on-line at work. During the portion where wreaths are being laid by various levels of government, service groups, etc. one stood out. It was announced as being from "MP - Toronto/Danforth" For all his "progressive" leanings, Jack Layton knew that a vibrant democracy was the best way to help all people and, even after his death, made sure to pay tribute to those who, like himself, fought for that cause. I may not have agreed with all of Jack's political beliefs, but I would have happily bought him a beer to taslk about that one.
ill bet you its very proportional to the people who have a clue of whats going on in this world.....
and knowing that drug addicts and homeless and the like imagrants...2nd 3rd world people are part of the 99% id think this forum doesn't rep it at all....no where near.....
Ah ok, so now we are being held hostage by drug addicts and homeless and immigrants ? Now at least we are getting somewhere. Of course we should give in to their 'demands'
This has become boring. Back to my hot tub and then I'll turn in on my mattress of money ;-)
It's the act of terrorists Milo. And no matter how you look at it, peaceful or not...these 'terrorists' have 'demands' they want met or they'll hold 'hostages'. Whether it be city parks, streets, now the web etc. Sorry, the general population doesn't like giving in to terrorists, in any way shape or form.
BTW, I'm from London Ontario, the first city to throw them to the curb. The public here couldn't be more supportive of that move.
you remind me of the time the US were made to believe that arabs were 'evil doers'
again they are people....we are people...they have fear...we have fear...its all the same...their never were terrorists...just countries and groups that disagree....both wrong....
Uh . . . threatening to damage a City's ability to carryo out their legitmate function is pretty much the definition of terrorism. As for your comment about groups that disagree . . . well, you and I are disagreeing. Neither of us is threatening the others life, or holding housepets as hostages. As is said, you're starting to get ridiculous with some of your responses.
you remind me of the time the US were made to believe that arabs were 'evil doers'
again they are people....we are people...they have fear...we have fear...its all the same...their never were terrorists...just countries and groups that disagree....both wrong....
>>>>from the hot tub
If arabs decided they would illegally set up camp in a public park making it a disgusting drug infested urinal, block streets, threaten websites and have a comically bumbling attempt at putting together a list of 'demands'....then you have me pegged. These low lifes are the bottom of the barrel terrorists, whether they realize it or not. No power, no leverage, but the whine a lot and talk about their 'demands being met'. Power hungry lowlifes, not happy with the situation 'they' made for themselves.
You're right, and it'll be by one of the protesters.
You cite examples of other countries where people are being kidnapped, "disappeared" and murdered in the street. This IS NOT what the 99% movement is portraying themselves as.... they're sitting there in their tents with iPhones and iPads, and complaining that a lot of the money is at the top... and that's why they can't have pretty things.
i can assure you its what its about...i don't mean disappearing people i mean murder in civil protest.... but ya its what its about...but id agree that they aren't portraying that properly...
but i think its more fair to say ...that the general population doesn't understand the movement either.....and i didn't know this until now...
The fact that someone who's reading this thinks I'm just ignorant on the subject (and I am), that's my point. To protest, you need to win the majority's sympathy, that's not happening here.
to call it 'successful'....maybe you have to win the majority....and here we are judging it in its infancy....but you are correct...they need to do that and they aren't......
I will admit that I can see why you are pro-occupy though darb... you argue just like them by talking a lot, sensationalizing everything, and not actually saying anything helpful.
=Mark
no...you are used to conflict and concrete ideas....im not giving any... we are still discussing the problem.....can't have a solution until the problem is known...the root...
What would you do about the illegal protests currently taking place in Canadian cities?
Just got back in and really don't see anything new... The whole Occupy thing is very sad and misdirected. Even if the organizers could come up with some actual direction and original ideas rather than the current pot induced ramblings I might have some sympathy for them.... but what they're doing now, throw em out...
And Darb, since you never did answer the question above that I and Milo asked I can no longer take you seriously, you are obviously trolling...
these homeless people did not have the same upbringing or education as others.....they don't know better...they were not taught drive and work ethic....
Many homeless also suffer from mental illness.
Mental Illness has nothing to do with upbringing.
Comments
fear of anarchy as a result of questioning democracy...is not a rational fear....
Most people have little interest in what the Occupy movement wants because there is little to no articulation of what those things are. It is like their ridiculous chant:
What do we want? CHANGE
When do we want it? NOW
Oh all right then, Starting tomorrow our entire economic system is gone. We're starting over . . . you, over there in the wool jacket with the Starbucks latte, gimme the keys to your car. Whatta you mean it's yours . . . says who? You paid for it? That was the old system, mate . . . we're starting over, and I want to start with a Lexus.
People question Democracy all the time . . . they're called elections, and it's why so many people want to have them for themselves. why is this so hard for you to understand.
Great post!
I see people posting on other forums about their idea of change. A lot of the time it is "once we get rid of government let's pick people to form groups and decide how things should be done.". Duuuh, that's exactly what we do today, we pick people (i.e. elect them) to form groups (i.e. committees and govt departments) and they decide (on our behalf) how things should work. The logic of this whole thing breaks down whenever it is analyzed in any way.
Oh, this will get wrapped up . . . probably before Christmas, too.
Good point, especially when the kitchen staff at Occupy Toronto went on a 1 day strike to protest the fact that numerous homeless and other folks were dropping by for free eats, and they felt that they were being overworked. The derelicts and homeless aren't part of the 99%? Seems elitist to me . . .
again tho overdose and addiction is one of the issues of occupy Vancouver, like thats what they are protesting about....the fact that someone died of od there is the issuse....not the protest....people die like that on Van streets everyday...that day tho...she had a tent to sleep in...
i know it will flip you out for me to say but theres martyr-ism in it... thats how these people will go down...dieing for a cause...
yes....in return for a chance at real freedom....real change....we complain about our material things....people in this world don't have those things...just watched a doc on water where bolivia people were forced to buy privatized water and there governement made laws they can't collect rain water...this is in the 80's.....
and when they revolted....the government put snipers in the building tops.....
these are the things people disagree with....from that right down to civil laws and the like.....
im not worried about our parks or wherever these people sit...its a small price to pay for a chance at change...
yes ...but we are not talking about that....we are talking about protesting vs the government..... we are testing....our right.....which i don't believe we have...to peacefully stand in ..and ask for change.....
guns will be drawn first..
Agreed completely. The down and outs don't like their place in society so they want a redo with the 'withouts' running the show. This forum is a good representation of the 99% (and trust me, poker players in general are not for the most part in the 1% category of society)...very few support this stupidity, or the way they are going about it.
Mentioned this earlier, more deets in the link. So, still say this is a "peaceful" protest?
BTW, I'm from London Ontario, the first city to throw them to the curb. The public here couldn't be more supportive of that move.
You're right, and it'll be by one of the protesters.
You cite examples of other countries where people are being kidnapped, "disappeared" and murdered in the street. This IS NOT what the 99% movement is portraying themselves as.... they're sitting there in their tents with iPhones and iPads, and complaining that a lot of the money is at the top... and that's why they can't have pretty things.
The fact that someone who's reading this thinks I'm just ignorant on the subject (and I am), that's my point. To protest, you need to win the majority's sympathy, that's not happening here.
I will admit that I can see why you are pro-occupy though darb... you argue just like them by talking a lot, sensationalizing everything, and not actually saying anything helpful.
Mark
i understand it well....
* - Citation needed
Mark
and knowing that drug addicts and homeless and the like imagrants...2nd 3rd world people are part of the 99% id think this forum doesn't rep it at all....no where near.....
NO, YOU DON'T. An election is a question about democracy, namely: Are the citizens happy with the way things are going over the last few years. To use our last election as an example, the people of Quebec decided that they were NOT happy with things, and sent a boatload of NDP candidates to Ottawa to strive for change. As a side issue, seeing this all started with a video of Remembrance Day, I would like to relate something that you would not have seen/heard. I watched the Toronto Remembrance Day service on-line at work. During the portion where wreaths are being laid by various levels of government, service groups, etc. one stood out. It was announced as being from "MP - Toronto/Danforth" For all his "progressive" leanings, Jack Layton knew that a vibrant democracy was the best way to help all people and, even after his death, made sure to pay tribute to those who, like himself, fought for that cause. I may not have agreed with all of Jack's political beliefs, but I would have happily bought him a beer to taslk about that one.
Please excuse me, I have a tournament to win.
Ah ok, so now we are being held hostage by drug addicts and homeless and immigrants ? Now at least we are getting somewhere. Of course we should give in to their 'demands'
This has become boring. Back to my hot tub and then I'll turn in on my mattress of money ;-)
but i agree its fluff....too many people have a solution without considering the fact that our minds are bred corrupt...
again they are people....we are people...they have fear...we have fear...its all the same...their never were terrorists...just countries and groups that disagree....both wrong....
>>>>from the hot tub
If arabs decided they would illegally set up camp in a public park making it a disgusting drug infested urinal, block streets, threaten websites and have a comically bumbling attempt at putting together a list of 'demands'....then you have me pegged. These low lifes are the bottom of the barrel terrorists, whether they realize it or not. No power, no leverage, but the whine a lot and talk about their 'demands being met'. Power hungry lowlifes, not happy with the situation 'they' made for themselves.
but i think its more fair to say ...that the general population doesn't understand the movement either.....and i didn't know this until now...
to call it 'successful'....maybe you have to win the majority....and here we are judging it in its infancy....but you are correct...they need to do that and they aren't......
no...you are used to conflict and concrete ideas....im not giving any... we are still discussing the problem.....can't have a solution until the problem is known...the root...
Just got back in and really don't see anything new... The whole Occupy thing is very sad and misdirected. Even if the organizers could come up with some actual direction and original ideas rather than the current pot induced ramblings I might have some sympathy for them.... but what they're doing now, throw em out...
And Darb, since you never did answer the question above that I and Milo asked I can no longer take you seriously, you are obviously trolling...
Many homeless also suffer from mental illness.
Mental Illness has nothing to do with upbringing.
John Forbes Nash, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia