Nice post(s). What are your thoughts on limping weak hands like 22-55 utg early on? I assume this is OK (unless the table has been particularly aggressive preflop) since you figure your implied odds are better hitting a set, as opposed to hitting a flush draw OOP (since many passive players will shut down when the 3rd flush card hits). Plus, small pairs are generally easy to play post-flop.
Nice post(s). What are your thoughts on limping weak hands like 22-55 utg early on? I assume this is OK (unless the table has been particularly aggressive preflop) since you figure your implied odds are better hitting a set, as opposed to hitting a flush draw OOP (since many passive players will shut down when the 3rd flush card hits). Plus, small pairs are generally easy to play post-flop.
I think limping small pairs UTG early in a SNG is a fine play, for the reasons you mentioned. As a matter of fact, I generally like to see a LOT of cheap flops early, with a lot of hands.
The old "play tight at the beginning and then players will give you credit for a hand when you're bluffing later" strategy just doesn't work anymore. Not as well as it did, anyway. Most experienced SNG players now realize that as the blinds go up, starting hand requirements go down, regardless of how tight or loose a player has been in the first few levels of the SNG.
To change the subject almost completely, EMAIL THE SHOW. This thread is great, but I could use some of these thought-provoking questions as emails to answer on the show.
It's great that so many people are watching, but man, sometimes we need some quality emails to the show, because I can only read so many bad beat stories.
It's great that so many people are watching, but man, sometimes we need some quality emails to the show, because I can only read so many bad beat stories.
I always laugh when I hear the VO ask for the bad beat stories. I always think how much badder a beat can there be?
Maybe I'll send a bad beat story in about limping with 99 UTG and the guy who limps with A9 UTG+1 beats me.
Nice post(s). What are your thoughts on limping weak hands like 22-55 utg early on? I assume this is OK (unless the table has been particularly aggressive preflop) since you figure your implied odds are better hitting a set, as opposed to hitting a flush draw OOP (since many passive players will shut down when the 3rd flush card hits). Plus, small pairs are generally easy to play post-flop.
Scooby,
In a sit and go, I wouldn't be limping 22-77 in early position unless you have more than 50 BBs (probably more like 75 on most tables). Many times the pot will be raised and you'll just be donking off chips by either folding or calling. Those small amounts of chips are valuable later on because they can slightly delay how long you have to actually pick up a hand rather than pushbotting with nothing. If I have position and there are limps, I'll of course limp along with 20 BBs or even less, trying to hit the set (not much less because you have to dump the hand if the blinds raise and you won't always get paid off when you hit the set).
In a multitable tournament, you're going to need to speculate more and call those hands in early position every time w/ 50 BBs, and often less.
Devin: I don't think you're conservative enough in sit and gos, but I can understand that from a limit guru
First off -- I love the feedback and interest in the debate. As Devo said, we/I'd love to get more feedback on the show via e-mails expert@pokernightlive.ca .
I thought I would listen to all the responses before I explained my thoughts on the matter -- just in case someone changed my mind.
I love this hand debate because it brings out some very important points on these short stacked/quick blind tournaments.
Here's the scenario. Very early in the tournament. Blinds are 10/20. Stacks are all about even at 1000. There are some very aggressive players behind me. Ysbrd and Satterfield.
Key point is that the stacks are not deep -- 50bb and the blinds are going up in 2-3 hands. Chips are very precious and I will not be risking large portions of my stack on low percentage plays. I think the key to these types of tournaments if focusing on high percentage plays -- not neccessarily choosing hands which win a high percentage of the time. More like playing lots of hands on the button and taking pots uncontested or pushing in the late stages where you will take the pot uncontested. Taking pots uncontested is a high percentage play.
Most of my show advice is specific to these tournaments. Yes, I try and bring it up a level to general advice, but the advice is targeted at these types of tournaments. So, I never say always. And, quite often you will see me seemingly contradict my advice because the situation has changed -- even slightly.
This is much more than -- is it correct to limp with A9s UTG. Factor in the stack vis a vis the blinds, the blinds going up very quickly AND two aggressive players behind me.
This is where I say "I don't like the limp with A9s". I believe it's not a big mistake, but a little mistake which in many instances will lead to much larger mistakes. The correct thinking is risking relatively little to hit something huge. However, most often when you are out of position -- way out of position these drawing hands will cost you dearly -- that is the mistake. In fact, most often the best way to play these hands has you pushing all-in (either c/r or push) on the flop to ensure you get paid when you hit your flush. The trouble with A9s is that your draw on the flop will rarely be a favourite. Hands like suited connectors play much better because of the multiple draws which allow you to put maximum pressure on your opponents while giving you the best odds to win the pot. So, I would prefer limping with a suited connector early. I still think it's a mistake with suited connectors under a ten.
In a deeper stacked tournament where I have over 100BB and it's early in the tournament I will limp with A9s UTG and possibly any suited ace. I won't do it often, but it's a club I have in the bag. I will also limp A9s if I have double the stack of everyone at the table. So, same tournament and blind level and I have 2000 chips, I will limp any suited ace sometimes AND I don't think it's a mistake to limp. Losing 200/400 chips with a 2000 chip stack is a worthwhile risk. Losing 200/400 chips with a 1000 chip stack is near disaster.
Here's where I what sent me over the edge! UTG Limp A9s, LMP raise to 80, Cutoff call and folded to the BB. Johnny says if the BB calls, he would call with A9s. This is why I think limping with A9s is bad in EP with 50BB. It leads to what IMHO is a much larger mistake. You call the 80 and the pot is 320 with two very aggressive players in the pot -- they have shown their aggression at this tournament, so no prior knowlege is required.
As always, you should look at the hand you could make and how much it will cost you to see it through. You're likely facing a draw out of position for 1/3 of your stack. While you may have the pot odds for the draw, I don't believe this is a way to win these types of tournaments. And, if you hit you're ace you're likely going to lose 1/2 your stack to find out that you're behind -- there were two callers of a non-steal raise (hypothetically).
In short, this is a low percentage play for lots of chips relative to your stack. That's not the way to win these tournaments. And going super short stack in the first round is near disaster.
I don't think I'm allowed to say "ace nine" on PNL anymore after the war that John and Lou had. I didn't see it, but beleive me, I've heard about it.
IMHO if it's a passive table and the blinds are low I will limp with any suited ace from UTG. Unsuited I fold. My objective isn't to make one pair of aces... it is to make the nut flush and bust some poor sucker. Of course, that doesn't happen very often, but you know... low blinds... passive table... I say give 'er.
You guys went to war over THIS?!? When I went to war with Lou, it was over something decent at least. I believe it was about whether or not open-limping from the button with pocket nines is a terrible play. (I thought it was, Lou thought it wasn't.)
Well, as it turns out Sklansky and Ed Miller think open-limping with a medium pocket pair can be correct in certain situations. This is what I was getting at. It's not always horrible to limp -- even thought I'm open-raising more often than I'm open limping.
See the chapter labelled Adjusting to Stack Sizes -- An Example, page 131 in No Limit Theory and Practice (ground breaking book IMO). The coles notes version is that when your stack size cannot stand a re-raise AND the blinds are not worth stealing, it's better to limp with medium pairs. You can easily call a raise in these situations but calling a re-raise to hit a set is real ugly when the re-raise is 1/3 of your stack. Hmm..., wasn't that what I thought it would take to call to hit your flush with A9s...I digress.
Here's where I what sent me over the edge! UTG Limp A9s, LMP raise to 80, Cutoff call and folded to the BB. Johnny says if the BB calls, he would call with A9s. This is why I think limping with A9s is bad in EP with 50BB. It leads to what IMHO is a much larger mistake. You call the 80 and the pot is 320 with two very aggressive players in the pot -- they have shown their aggression at this tournament, so no prior knowlege is required.
As always, you should look at the hand you could make and how much it will cost you to see it through. You're likely facing a draw out of position for 1/3 of your stack. While you may have the pot odds for the draw, I don't believe this is a way to win these types of tournaments.
On a more serious note, I totally agree with Lou here. We had this same discussion at length after a deep-stack tournament, but the same principle applies. The "small mistake" early (calling the raise) often makes your future calls correct (due to the odds), but you end up losing a lot of chips overall. Eliminating these small mistakes is critical, short-stacked or deep...
Wow,
That is impressive,
I didn't anticipate such a wide response, but I appreciate the efforts to examine this hand. While I do agree with many of the responses, looking at both sides of the equation, my personal play may still be a limp UTG, but not always. I am confident enough in my tournament record to get involved with more hands than the average tight tournament player. The advice I give on PNL is, more often than not, to play very tight in the early rounds and learn as much as you can from your table. But I don't always play this way, I will suggest it for beginners. However, given that it is an 8 handed game and there is a very loose and agressive player that will act before me after the flop (Ysbrdy) on my right, I like to be involved with this hand. If I miss the flop (ie. no flush draw, no ace) I can get out easily. If it is raised heavily from tight players pre-flop that act after me I can fold. BUT, if there is weak raise or no raise at all and the loose player on my right is in and or there are other limpers, I think it is a good opportunity if a flush draw comes on board OR if there is a naked ace. Many of you may disagree arguing that the 9 kicker is no good. I don't think this is always the case. On a loose table there will be ace rags involved in the hand and the 9 will kick more often than expected. I like my chances if I can push the others out of the pot and get heads up and position on a player like Ysbrdy. It has worked for me in the past in both limit and single table sit'n'goes. I don't always recommend it, depending on the table, but If I have a player like Ysbrdy on my right, I like to get involved. Thats how I feel and I'm sticking to it. And yes, for those of you that like to spark a debate and give your input, email us at expert@pokernightlive.ca
Comments
Compelling, but... nope!
I think limping small pairs UTG early in a SNG is a fine play, for the reasons you mentioned. As a matter of fact, I generally like to see a LOT of cheap flops early, with a lot of hands.
The old "play tight at the beginning and then players will give you credit for a hand when you're bluffing later" strategy just doesn't work anymore. Not as well as it did, anyway. Most experienced SNG players now realize that as the blinds go up, starting hand requirements go down, regardless of how tight or loose a player has been in the first few levels of the SNG.
To change the subject almost completely, EMAIL THE SHOW. This thread is great, but I could use some of these thought-provoking questions as emails to answer on the show.
expert@pokernightlive.ca
It's great that so many people are watching, but man, sometimes we need some quality emails to the show, because I can only read so many bad beat stories.
I always laugh when I hear the VO ask for the bad beat stories. I always think how much badder a beat can there be?
Maybe I'll send a bad beat story in about limping with 99 UTG and the guy who limps with A9 UTG+1 beats me.
Scooby,
In a sit and go, I wouldn't be limping 22-77 in early position unless you have more than 50 BBs (probably more like 75 on most tables). Many times the pot will be raised and you'll just be donking off chips by either folding or calling. Those small amounts of chips are valuable later on because they can slightly delay how long you have to actually pick up a hand rather than pushbotting with nothing. If I have position and there are limps, I'll of course limp along with 20 BBs or even less, trying to hit the set (not much less because you have to dump the hand if the blinds raise and you won't always get paid off when you hit the set).
In a multitable tournament, you're going to need to speculate more and call those hands in early position every time w/ 50 BBs, and often less.
Devin: I don't think you're conservative enough in sit and gos, but I can understand that from a limit guru
Ryan
Ryan
My track record speaks for itself. PokerProphecy me... Aces_All at Party
I can understand that... it's a fun job.
I thought I would listen to all the responses before I explained my thoughts on the matter -- just in case someone changed my mind.
I love this hand debate because it brings out some very important points on these short stacked/quick blind tournaments.
Here's the scenario. Very early in the tournament. Blinds are 10/20. Stacks are all about even at 1000. There are some very aggressive players behind me. Ysbrd and Satterfield.
Key point is that the stacks are not deep -- 50bb and the blinds are going up in 2-3 hands. Chips are very precious and I will not be risking large portions of my stack on low percentage plays. I think the key to these types of tournaments if focusing on high percentage plays -- not neccessarily choosing hands which win a high percentage of the time. More like playing lots of hands on the button and taking pots uncontested or pushing in the late stages where you will take the pot uncontested. Taking pots uncontested is a high percentage play.
Most of my show advice is specific to these tournaments. Yes, I try and bring it up a level to general advice, but the advice is targeted at these types of tournaments. So, I never say always. And, quite often you will see me seemingly contradict my advice because the situation has changed -- even slightly.
This is much more than -- is it correct to limp with A9s UTG. Factor in the stack vis a vis the blinds, the blinds going up very quickly AND two aggressive players behind me.
This is where I say "I don't like the limp with A9s". I believe it's not a big mistake, but a little mistake which in many instances will lead to much larger mistakes. The correct thinking is risking relatively little to hit something huge. However, most often when you are out of position -- way out of position these drawing hands will cost you dearly -- that is the mistake. In fact, most often the best way to play these hands has you pushing all-in (either c/r or push) on the flop to ensure you get paid when you hit your flush. The trouble with A9s is that your draw on the flop will rarely be a favourite. Hands like suited connectors play much better because of the multiple draws which allow you to put maximum pressure on your opponents while giving you the best odds to win the pot. So, I would prefer limping with a suited connector early. I still think it's a mistake with suited connectors under a ten.
In a deeper stacked tournament where I have over 100BB and it's early in the tournament I will limp with A9s UTG and possibly any suited ace. I won't do it often, but it's a club I have in the bag. I will also limp A9s if I have double the stack of everyone at the table. So, same tournament and blind level and I have 2000 chips, I will limp any suited ace sometimes AND I don't think it's a mistake to limp. Losing 200/400 chips with a 2000 chip stack is a worthwhile risk. Losing 200/400 chips with a 1000 chip stack is near disaster.
Here's where I what sent me over the edge! UTG Limp A9s, LMP raise to 80, Cutoff call and folded to the BB. Johnny says if the BB calls, he would call with A9s. This is why I think limping with A9s is bad in EP with 50BB. It leads to what IMHO is a much larger mistake. You call the 80 and the pot is 320 with two very aggressive players in the pot -- they have shown their aggression at this tournament, so no prior knowlege is required.
As always, you should look at the hand you could make and how much it will cost you to see it through. You're likely facing a draw out of position for 1/3 of your stack. While you may have the pot odds for the draw, I don't believe this is a way to win these types of tournaments. And, if you hit you're ace you're likely going to lose 1/2 your stack to find out that you're behind -- there were two callers of a non-steal raise (hypothetically).
In short, this is a low percentage play for lots of chips relative to your stack. That's not the way to win these tournaments. And going super short stack in the first round is near disaster.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers
Lou
Well, as it turns out Sklansky and Ed Miller think open-limping with a medium pocket pair can be correct in certain situations. This is what I was getting at. It's not always horrible to limp -- even thought I'm open-raising more often than I'm open limping.
See the chapter labelled Adjusting to Stack Sizes -- An Example, page 131 in No Limit Theory and Practice (ground breaking book IMO). The coles notes version is that when your stack size cannot stand a re-raise AND the blinds are not worth stealing, it's better to limp with medium pairs. You can easily call a raise in these situations but calling a re-raise to hit a set is real ugly when the re-raise is 1/3 of your stack. Hmm..., wasn't that what I thought it would take to call to hit your flush with A9s...I digress.
Cheers
Lou
On a more serious note, I totally agree with Lou here. We had this same discussion at length after a deep-stack tournament, but the same principle applies. The "small mistake" early (calling the raise) often makes your future calls correct (due to the odds), but you end up losing a lot of chips overall. Eliminating these small mistakes is critical, short-stacked or deep...
That is impressive,
I didn't anticipate such a wide response, but I appreciate the efforts to examine this hand. While I do agree with many of the responses, looking at both sides of the equation, my personal play may still be a limp UTG, but not always. I am confident enough in my tournament record to get involved with more hands than the average tight tournament player. The advice I give on PNL is, more often than not, to play very tight in the early rounds and learn as much as you can from your table. But I don't always play this way, I will suggest it for beginners. However, given that it is an 8 handed game and there is a very loose and agressive player that will act before me after the flop (Ysbrdy) on my right, I like to be involved with this hand. If I miss the flop (ie. no flush draw, no ace) I can get out easily. If it is raised heavily from tight players pre-flop that act after me I can fold. BUT, if there is weak raise or no raise at all and the loose player on my right is in and or there are other limpers, I think it is a good opportunity if a flush draw comes on board OR if there is a naked ace. Many of you may disagree arguing that the 9 kicker is no good. I don't think this is always the case. On a loose table there will be ace rags involved in the hand and the 9 will kick more often than expected. I like my chances if I can push the others out of the pot and get heads up and position on a player like Ysbrdy. It has worked for me in the past in both limit and single table sit'n'goes. I don't always recommend it, depending on the table, but If I have a player like Ysbrdy on my right, I like to get involved. Thats how I feel and I'm sticking to it. And yes, for those of you that like to spark a debate and give your input, email us at expert@pokernightlive.ca
Omega
For more info on A9s, check out what Sklansky thinks about it in "Small Stakes Hold'em", a great book for limit and small stakes players
Omega