Sad news, guys. I know how much work you put into this and how much people were looking forward to this.
I think the size of the event got the attention of the cops. The normal 20-30 player tournaments don't really interest them as long as the neighbours aren't complaining. The rake gave them an excuse to put a scare into you.
Just thinking about the prize pool, kinda makes me wonder if there wasn't a risk of a robbery? From that perspective, the police may be trying to prevent a much bigger crime from happening. If the cops can read, can't the hoods? What if the cops are the hoods?
There are ways to set up bigger tourneys online without much rake at all. Not nearly as much fun but simpler logistically.
I'm surprised some of the bigger GTA events haven't been 'warned'. Or maybe they have. I don't see nearly as many posts these days...
Thanks for trying, guys. I wasn't able to attend anyway but I was looking forward to hearing about it. Best of luck for future events.
Thanks so much much for the idea, the planning, the effort boys. Everyone, as evidenced by the full sign up reserve list, appreciated your vision and your organization. It will happen eventually, if not this month. And we will have you three to thank for it.
Screw them change the locaton ,mail everyone idaviually threw email and we can still have it maybe not as big but we can still do this, do it outside and have a barbecue the weathers beautiful , we cant just not have it , come on people were not the NHL here lol we will have this tournament.
I must intervene a little here and side with the organizers.
There are people who have "WAY" too much to lose if busted. (family, professional desginations, pride, etc) I would imagine even the players would receive some sort of fine. There is absolutely no reason to try and circumvent the KWSOP. The police obviously have an "insider" or somebody viewing the forum and you will never know who it is ever. (Remember, it's their job). I do give props to the police for giving advanced warning about the tourney. We had people coming from Ottawa to play in this I believe.
I do want to thank the organizers for trying to organize a clean, fair tournament and making it is as legal as all understood the tourneys. The reason "I believe" this tourney has drawn the attention of the police is the actual money involved. When you start reaching $10,000, this isn't just small cash games anymore. Having your buddies over for $20-$40 tournaments isn't a big deal to the police I wouldn't imagine. It's the amount of money in this one that has finally caught their attention.
You can be sure they're reading all the replies to this thread as well. Don't try and re-invent the KWSOP unless there is some sort of "legal opinion" sought before doing so. I personally don't believe it to be worth it. I do have some contacts in the KW area if you would like for some lawyers.
Just my thoughts. However, thanks for all your hard work guys.
Folded
I have no affiliation with Kwsop at all and didnt plan on being in the tourny but I would like to say a few things because I feel for you all have been wronged... I will excuse my language ahead of time because this upsets me very much for some reason.. I find it kind of pathetic that it is illegal to run a poker tournament with no rake and every1 realizes what they are buying in for... I think that the reason that you are unable to run this tourny is because the canadian government does not benefit from this the fact that it is not taxed.. Casino Niagara runs games and tournaments and has a rake.. So your telling me that the government can have raked games but the people cant have non raked tournments where noone has any financial gain this is outlandish. I know I will probably have the police reading our logs so if they are I would like to say this. Poker games should be last on your priority list because noone is benefitting financially from it why dont you go try and arrest some crack dealers and do your community what you are paid to do. mmmmmmmmmmmmm donuts
it's to simply find out the parameters from the police as to HOW this can happen.
That's the problem. Since the charities had to shut their doors way back when, I would guess1 that at least 15 lawsuits to define gaming, poker, and other forms of tournament play have been filed and lost. People with real resources (read: the operators of the charitiy casinos) have tried and failed to redefine the rules or find a loophole.
I totally agree with your first point though.
N
1 I have no real record, so this fact is mostly fabricated, but I do know there have been at least 72 suits filed.
As far as I am concerned Keep my 10 deposit and use it to challenge the law. I'll play free that weekend too if that's how it can still run. I'll even donate a trophy for the event. We all need to get together and show that we will not be intimidated. Hopefully this isn't the end of tourneys cuz Rama gets to charge $270 +$30 with no accounting of the $30..... OHHHHHH but that's legal, must be a liberal plot cuz they aren't getting a kickback.
Let's just do as a couple other posters suggested and play for bragging rights then! Beating out 95 of the best players in the region has to be worth something?!
What about giving back the $10, getting everbody's $150 in advance, then using it to purchase something like Home Depot gift cards? I know I'd gladly put up $150 to win a $5,000 gift card.
The beauty of this is that there is no rake and technically there is no cash as I believe the standard gift cards have "No Cash Value". We would just be playing cards!
I think we shoudl have a mini tourney then for the seat winners, and the people who have all paid in full. $160 buy-in. it's already all taken care of. same format, smaller blinds, no rake of course.
it's up to everyone who has won a seat of course, and whomever woudl host. just an idea.
Again the amount of people willing to play for free just for the title is overwhelming. Truly it is just a great testament to the poker community, and I'm saddened that the Justice system can't see that we were not holding this for profit.
However, the damage has been done. I think no matter which way we decided to proceed we will face a battle. Having a common gaming house is illegal, and unfortunately the burden of proof is solely on the proprietor, that we are Legal. Â Although we may be absolutely right, it will cost alot to prove it. I have a career, a family and house (which is owned more by bank then me at this point ) Â that I cannot afford to risk.
I am sure that we are being made an example of and that no matter how we try to proceed, the OPP and WRP will try to make that example of us.
Yes, I think we are on the right side of the law. Yes, I think we could prove it in court. However, the costs of doing so would be severe burden. Not to mention being charged with a crime like this would be a burden on my career and my bondability. Â Not to mention the stigma I would have in my neighborhood.
I cannot risk it, for now the police win. WPC is shut down.
Truly is unfortunate; Â as we have never charged a rake, or profited from hosting. Where as we all know of many other venues that sell food, a 'cover charge', or take a direct profit from the prize pool. Â In fact I'm sure we have all invested alot in terms of tables, chairs, chips, time and special presents so our spouses will let us host.
Thank you all for your support, dedication and understanding!!
It'll take a few days to figure out if there is anything we can do, until then thanks again. Â It's alot easier to get through all of this with so many understanding people on your side.
Thanks to Shannon, Rob and Tyson for their efforts to date.
very sad indeed. I'm sure everyone will understand.
Everyone on the forum understands you were doing this for "all the right reasons". Â
Everyone is going to be disappointed, but the ones that should be most upset is you three, you've poured hours into this, and everyone knows that you were doing for the pure love of the game. Â We can only hope that this doesn't affect the normal games we've already enjoyed, as I can honestly say that I have met more great people, and felt more a part of K/W's community (something the police are trying to develop!) since meeting you all at my first Bristol Street, than at any other time in my life. Â You guys should be commended, not harrassed.
I don't think anyone that registered for the tournament felt in anyway that you guys were attempting to make any sort of profit off of this tournament (hell, I expected you guys to take a loss over all of this because of rentals etc). This is truely something that couldn't have been expected.
I hope things work out for you guys.
I've spent many an hour reading your posts and seeing how everyone has faired...not even being there...
you guys have done an amazing job, put in heroic efforts and invested gobs of personal time, all for your love of the game, and I know we all appreciate this so thanks again.
I can imagine the heartbreak from all the time you guys spent in preparing for this.
I know a lot of effort goes into organizing these events and the 3 of you (PUNKYMISHA in Guelph too) are motivated purely by a love for the game. Â Once again, you guys are awesome and all your work is hugely appreciated.
Thanks to everyone on the KW organizing committee for your efforts.
Thanks for putting this whole thing together guys! It is really dissapointing what has happened.
Thanks to everyone who had a hand in organizing the tourny, I know it was going to go of smashingly, and would have been A LOT of fun for all of us involved, win or lose.
I agree totally with the notion that it is offensive that the police have decided to politely bust up a clean, safe, non-profit operation as opposed to some of the other games that we know about
I would like to let Shannon, Rob and Tyson know that I, and I'm sure everyone, appreciates all they've done to provide us with fun, rake free, and very well organized fairly low stakes poker games.
I'd personally like to say "THANK YOU!!!", for all the blood, sweat and tears you three have put into organizing this event. You guys are my heroes
Thanks you guys for all the planning and effort of trying to bring the WSOP to KW. Â
To all of you involved in the KWSOP, I am truly sorry that this has happened to such a group of nice people, you really have gone out of your way to put this together, and I thank you for the opportunity to play with some of the best in Ontario
For the organizers, I wouldn't give this a second thouught and I thank you guys for being honest with everyone
Sad news, guys. I know how much work you put into this and how much people were looking forward to this.
Thanks so much much for the idea, the planning, the effort boys. Â Everyone, as evidenced by the full sign up reserve list, appreciated your vision and your organization.
I do want to thank the organizers for trying to organize a clean, fair tournament and making it is as legal as all understood the tourneys.
As far as I am concerned Keep my 10 deposit and use it to challenge the law. Â I'll play free that weekend too if that's how it can still run. Â I'll even donate a trophy for the event.
Dude, I am really sorry to hear that, I looked at the forum earlier, everyone understands, but it still suck
As was stated, very well explained. Â Very unfortunate. Â You guys have to make the call obviously, and I hope everyone will agree that we trust you guys to make the right decision.
Your news really frustrated me too. Â I can only
imagine how upset you are.I would recommend making some new arrangements on or near U of waterloo under a new name. Â If you need a pep talk or just to vent, let me know.
Sorry to hear the bad news. You guys seemed to have put a lot of time into organizing the event and it is to bad there isn't any way around it. I wish there was I'm sure you do to. Anyways thanks a lot everyone appreciates your effort.
Is anybody interested in still getting together that weekend for a wake/party? We can morn the loss of our beloved KWSOP, but still gather a have a good time with some BBQ, frosty beverages and poker stories. I offer my humble home for this purpose.
JohnnieH
Note to any officier of the law reading this post:
WE'LL KEEP THE CHIPS OFF THE TABLE, I PROMISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a law degree, but I have never practiced law and my thoughts should be treated with a great deal of skepticism since they really are only my opinion.
(1) I, like everyone else, am sad to see the KWSOP go down because it was being done for all the right reasons.
(2) Poker is EXPLODING. And, consequently, there are A LOT of people trying to make a buck off it in legal not illegal ways. Take a look at "corned in P.A." in the "Ask Dave" section if you want to see the kind of crap that can go on.
(3) Law enforcement has, correctly in my view, taken notice of this explosion. And, they have obviously allocated some resources to this area. KWSOP has been caught up in this phenomenon. That's a shame, but in hindsight, not a surprise.
(4) The law in this area is not clear. In my opinion, a non-rake poker game held regularly in a bar would be in contravention of the Criminal Code. If I am right, then we can hate the law, but that's the law.
(5) Poker SHOULD be regulated. Yes, there is an element of skill. Perhaps a large element. But, there is also an element of chance. And, there are a lot of "social policy" reasons to carefully regulate the gaming industry -- the possibility of corruption and addiction come to mind. It is too simple to say "The governements wants a piece." If that was the case, there are some pretty easy ways to move in that direction. But, the government does want to regulate this acticity -- like is regulates other "dangerous" activities like alcohol and driving.
(6) I would be leery about playing the underground scene in Ontario right now. The shut down of a good event like the KWSOP tells me that there are assets being directed this way and, cops are generally the good guys... If they have been "put on the case" they are looking much deeper than the KWSOP.
(7) In the end we will all be better off. Government will respond to demand. There will be more large scale poker available and it will be regulated.
Again, I want to reiterate that I am saddened by this news. My opinion about "poker and the law" is counter to many on this forum, but I am in full agreement that the KWSOP organizers are the "good guys."
Okay... I guess I'll have to add my two cents too...
Point 1:
The three guys running the KWSOP are doing it for the game, they are honest gentlemen who I have enjoyed playing (read losing my money to). They were doing this for the poker playing community, to have a great tournament, and weren't going to make one damned cent... barring of course they place money.
Point 2:
The police have shut this tournament down. The 96 players registered are understandably upset, feel cheated, and truly disappointed. These feelings have led to resentment of the police, and sympathy for the three organizers. Also, there are some scrambling to salvage this thing, simply because they are like-minded to the organizers, poker is a great game, and we would love to play it. I worry that these people may be inadvertently pressuring the organizers. These people should remember that they may be willing to stake more on the line to play a tournament that will very likely be watched and shut down regardless, and the organizers should not be pressured to do this, they've been through enough, let's not make them feel worse about it, I know they feel bad already (but don't guys, we love you!! <gratuitous man flirting>)
Point 3:
The cops are getting a bum rap.Â
I'll say it again.
The cops are not the bad guys here, and are getting a lot of flack for simply doing their jobs.Â
The fact is the police have to try to PREVENT crime. Reacting to it is not enough, and people get hurt / angry. Yes, this is a case that there was not a crime in intent, but legally there may have been a case to be made simply because none of us are lawyers specializing in gaming law, and we may have acted in ignorance.
The bottom line is, KWSOP (beta version maybe?) is not going to fly. We have two options:
  A: Hate the police, put unnecessary pressure on stpboy, reddington, and Zithal, and then watch as whatever we attempt likely gets cracked down on anyways, resulting in legal troubles and reinforcing the hatred.
 B: Learn from what went wrong here, regroup, re-plan, and find a way to make something like this happen, if it's even possible. If not, well, we do our small stakes 24 person tournaments, and be happy with that. Until something happens legally that makes these types of initiatives more accessible, we have to live with it.
 I don't quite know what made me want to post this, but this is what I have concluded. I have been distraught over the loss of the KWSOP (hell, I was #2 on the list!), but I was more concerned that stpboy Zithal and Reddington would be harassed, made to feel guilt, or simply disrespected. I know none of these guys will outright say to someone that they're doing this to them, but please, consider their feelings... they wanted it more than any of us, that's why they were setting it up, and you weren't.
So, STP, Reddington and Rob, I would like to offer my thanks, my praise, my services for anything you could need, and I would love to split a pitcher with each of you, on me (not all in the same night though okay? I can't drink like I used to!). You guys are great!Â
Mark
(P.S. Zithal, I suggest we keep the pitcher away from poker tables, what with my history of staining them!)
All this hatred towards the Police and the AGCO is IMO is crazy, I think that we should thank them for coming to the doors of the KWSOP TD(s) and saying "Hey we know, we say no, thought we would warn you" is a lot more respect than the average "criminal" get's. They could have waited, busted the event in progress and "REALLY" made an example of this. I hope that before they kick in one of my events that the OPP AGCO and RCMP up here have the same kind of regard for boltonpoker as the K/W police have for the KWSOP boy's.
If people are willing to play for free, are there a couple of us that get together and talk, maybe bear the expense of renting a hall and trophies and food and stuff and play for nothing other than bragging rights. I am in!
What if the winner (whose prize is increased slightly) decides to generously "donate" part of his/her winnings to cover any rental fee's?
Common gaming house.
First of all, judges are not stupid. You're going to have serious trouble passing off house fees as "donations", whether they appear to be voluntary or not. In fact, even suggesting the idea on a public forum basically immediately kills the idea anyway, since, if such a donation scheme was attempted, the pre-meditation of the scheme is evident.
Second, and more definitively, there is already case law in Canada which already supports a specific kind of "donations" being classified as house fees.
Actually, one of the original complainants in that very case was Casino Regina.
[10] Corporal Jeffrey Adams, a 20 year veteran of Regina Police Service, testified that a series of complaints had come from Casino Regina regarding a possible unlawful "gaming house" being operated at 1640 Albert Street.
They must really have a deep love of poker over there at Casino Regina.
I just thought I'd offer one perspective that I haven't seen represented.
A game that takes no rake, and the organizors don't profit may still be sticky legally.
If you are playing little cash games here and there, or low limit tournaments, the average person isn't making a whole lot of profit overall. Up and little here, down a little there.
With the KWSOP, the prizes were substantial, and it is likely that the person who wins the 4 grand or so for first, isn't going to lose all that going back to the low limit games.
That profit then, should be treated as income, and recorded on a tax return under other sources of income. This is not likely to happen, though the individual would be legally required to. This may be part of the reason that an event with such high stakes got the attention that it did. Therefore, unless the tournament was going to issues T4s to the winners to ensure they record the winnings as income the police could see it as circumventing Revenue Canada.
Last I checked thou gambling income in Canada is tax free. I think the push is on the common gaming house and not the winners. I think there is a case where a skilled player that sets up tournaments and wins is still considered a gaming house. Players/Games in this area I believe have about the same skill levels so I do not think this would be a concern.
That profit then, should be treated as income, and recorded on a tax return under other sources of income. This is not likely to happen, though the individual would be legally required to. This may be part of the reason that an event with such high stakes got the attention that it did. Therefore, unless the tournament was going to issues T4s to the winners to ensure they record the winnings as income the police could see it as circumventing Revenue Canada.
Just a thought.
I was under the impression you only had to record poker winnings if they are the main source of your income?
Last I checked thou gambling income in Canada is tax free.
State your source.
Gambling income is not necessarily non-taxable in Canada. In fact gambling tax law is arguably even more of a grey area than gambling law itself.
You may be confusing gambling income as a whole with income from a "lottery scheme or a pool system" (Criminal Code, Sec. 205) specifically. The latter is in fact declared as non-taxable income in the Income Tax Act. (Sec. 40 (2))
I'm going to reiterate what a few people have essentially said on this thread already. Anybody who has an 'idea' or 'suggestion' as to how this will work, should back it up and step forward and organize it themselves. There's been far too much pressure and suggestion for the three guys who were trying their A** off to make this work in the first place.
I'll just take another moment to thank them again for their vision and effort.
I am a member of the Law Society although not currently practicing law, and therefor I am NOT entitled to give any legal advice, nor would I in this context in any event. I did practice as a criminal lawyer for 3+ years a few years back and want to make sure that people know this is serious stuff. I will tell you what your gut is probably already telling you... to see a real, licensed and insured lawyer about this stuff and to try to work out whatever problems you have with the police in advance. What I will say is that in the huge grey area about gambling income and gaming houses, there is definitely some reason to be VERY cautious. Typically the only way to challenge a law or the police interpretation of it is to go ahead and do the alleged crime and fight the charges in court. The people fighting these cases often suffer terrible consequences financially and personally doing so, even when they win their case.
I have seen too many good and well meaning people think they are clever enough to outwit the judicial system, only to end up being really hurt. Don't take the advice of a non legal professional (including myself) on these matters. This is serious stuff.
Last I checked thou gambling income in Canada is tax free.
State your source.
Gambling income is not necessarily non-taxable in Canada. In fact gambling tax law is arguably even more of a grey area than gambling law itself.
You may be confusing gambling income as a whole with income from a "lottery scheme or a pool system" (Criminal Code, Sec. 205) specifically. The latter is in fact declared as non-taxable income in the Income Tax Act. (Sec. 40 (2))
Other than lottery, I could find no other law which clearly addresses gambling income.
Usual disclaimer applies.
ScottyZ
Tax Law course McMaster University 1995. If gambling is not considered your main occupation and source of income it is not taxable in Canada. This is why the US has a withholding tax on winnings. Since Canada won't tax you they will. International tax treaty would kick in if Canada was taxing these amounts and the US would have no rights to tax it.
Not my area of expertise just what I have heard and been taught.
See heres what I dont understand (and I appologize if this has been brought up already as I havent read all the posts in this)
If me and my friends were going to have a poker tournament, and we decided the buyin was going to be $50 and of course it was all going to the prize pool, the game would be legal. If we then decided the game would be more fun with professional dealers and tables, and we all decided to put in $10 bucks and go rent some tables and dealers, and then use them for our upcoming $50 tournament, the game would still be legal. Were just a bunch of friends pitching in $10 to rent stuff, just like when we split pitchers, or go in on a birthday gift or anything like that.
So why then is it illegal to take a fee in a situation like the KWSOP? Just because its strangers playing? Or is it because the fee is considered part of the entry? Why?
If the KWSOP add hadve said, "KWSOP: The buyin for this tourney will be $X and ALL money will go to the prize pool. Anybody who wants to play please throw in $Y to cover your share of the rental costs."
would it then have been legal?
I jsut dont see the difference betweeen a house fee to cover rental expenses and a bunch of friends pooling to rent some cool stuff for their tourney. The only difference I ciould see is that the pooling is done before and seperate of the tournament, and the house fee is more a part of the actual tournament fee.
If we then decided the game would be more fun with professional dealers and tables, and we all decided to put in $10 bucks and go rent some tables and dealers, and then use them for our upcoming $50 tournament, the game would still be legal.
I do not believe it would be legal.
Were just a bunch of friends pitching in $10 to rent stuff...
The fact that the "stuff" is gaming equipment makes a big difference. See Section 197 of the Criminal Code.
If the KWSOP add hadve said, "KWSOP: The buyin for this tourney will be $X and ALL money will go to the prize pool. Anybody who wants to play please throw in $Y to cover your share of the rental costs."
would it then have been legal?
Probably not. Fees/donations which claim to be optional are still house fees. There is at least one point of case law supporting this interpretation. Heck, you might even find a link to that particular case in this very thread.
"no one's heard a single word I've said..."
My understanding is that if anyone, including a chair rental company, makes a profit (directly or indirectly) from the fact that a (non-freeroll) poker game is going on, you then have a common gaming house (Criminal Code, Sec 197).
I jsut dont see the difference betweeen a house fee to cover rental expenses and a bunch of friends pooling to rent some cool stuff for their tourney.
Me neither. You would seem to have a common gaming house in both cases.
Comments
I think the size of the event got the attention of the cops. The normal 20-30 player tournaments don't really interest them as long as the neighbours aren't complaining. The rake gave them an excuse to put a scare into you.
Just thinking about the prize pool, kinda makes me wonder if there wasn't a risk of a robbery? From that perspective, the police may be trying to prevent a much bigger crime from happening. If the cops can read, can't the hoods? What if the cops are the hoods?
There are ways to set up bigger tourneys online without much rake at all. Not nearly as much fun but simpler logistically.
I'm surprised some of the bigger GTA events haven't been 'warned'. Or maybe they have. I don't see nearly as many posts these days...
Thanks for trying, guys. I wasn't able to attend anyway but I was looking forward to hearing about it. Best of luck for future events.
There are people who have "WAY" too much to lose if busted. (family, professional desginations, pride, etc) I would imagine even the players would receive some sort of fine. There is absolutely no reason to try and circumvent the KWSOP. The police obviously have an "insider" or somebody viewing the forum and you will never know who it is ever. (Remember, it's their job). I do give props to the police for giving advanced warning about the tourney. We had people coming from Ottawa to play in this I believe.
I do want to thank the organizers for trying to organize a clean, fair tournament and making it is as legal as all understood the tourneys. The reason "I believe" this tourney has drawn the attention of the police is the actual money involved. When you start reaching $10,000, this isn't just small cash games anymore. Having your buddies over for $20-$40 tournaments isn't a big deal to the police I wouldn't imagine. It's the amount of money in this one that has finally caught their attention.
You can be sure they're reading all the replies to this thread as well. Don't try and re-invent the KWSOP unless there is some sort of "legal opinion" sought before doing so. I personally don't believe it to be worth it. I do have some contacts in the KW area if you would like for some lawyers.
Just my thoughts. However, thanks for all your hard work guys.
Folded
That's the problem. Since the charities had to shut their doors way back when, I would guess1 that at least 15 lawsuits to define gaming, poker, and other forms of tournament play have been filed and lost. People with real resources (read: the operators of the charitiy casinos) have tried and failed to redefine the rules or find a loophole.
I totally agree with your first point though.
N
1 I have no real record, so this fact is mostly fabricated, but I do know there have been at least 72 suits filed.
2 I actually do know of these ones.
What about giving back the $10, getting everbody's $150 in advance, then using it to purchase something like Home Depot gift cards? I know I'd gladly put up $150 to win a $5,000 gift card.
The beauty of this is that there is no rake and technically there is no cash as I believe the standard gift cards have "No Cash Value". We would just be playing cards!
Would this work?
it's up to everyone who has won a seat of course, and whomever woudl host. just an idea.
Johnny
Again the amount of people willing to play for free just for the title is overwhelming. Truly it is just a great testament to the poker community, and I'm saddened that the Justice system can't see that we were not holding this for profit.
However, the damage has been done. I think no matter which way we decided to proceed we will face a battle. Having a common gaming house is illegal, and unfortunately the burden of proof is solely on the proprietor, that we are Legal. Â Although we may be absolutely right, it will cost alot to prove it. I have a career, a family and house (which is owned more by bank then me at this point
I am sure that we are being made an example of and that no matter how we try to proceed, the OPP and WRP will try to make that example of us.
Yes, I think we are on the right side of the law. Yes, I think we could prove it in court. However, the costs of doing so would be severe burden. Not to mention being charged with a crime like this would be a burden on my career and my bondability. Â Not to mention the stigma I would have in my neighborhood.
I cannot risk it, for now the police win. WPC is shut down.
Truly is unfortunate; Â as we have never charged a rake, or profited from hosting. Where as we all know of many other venues that sell food, a 'cover charge', or take a direct profit from the prize pool. Â In fact I'm sure we have all invested alot in terms of tables, chairs, chips, time and special presents so our spouses will let us host.
Thanks for all the help and great times...
It'll take a few days to figure out if there is anything we can do, until then thanks again. Â It's alot easier to get through all of this with so many understanding people on your side.
Thanks to Shannon, Rob and Tyson for their efforts to date.
very sad indeed. I'm sure everyone will understand.
Everyone on the forum understands you were doing this for "all the right reasons". Â
Everyone is going to be disappointed, but the ones that should be most upset is you three, you've poured hours into this, and everyone knows that you were doing for the pure love of the game. Â We can only hope that this doesn't affect the normal games we've already enjoyed, as I can honestly say that I have met more great people, and felt more a part of K/W's community (something the police are trying to develop!) since meeting you all at my first Bristol Street, than at any other time in my life. Â You guys should be commended, not harrassed.
I don't think anyone that registered for the tournament felt in anyway that you guys were attempting to make any sort of profit off of this tournament (hell, I expected you guys to take a loss over all of this because of rentals etc). This is truely something that couldn't have been expected.
I hope things work out for you guys.
I've spent many an hour reading your posts and seeing how everyone has faired...not even being there...
you guys have done an amazing job, put in heroic efforts and invested gobs of personal time, all for your love of the game, and I know we all appreciate this so thanks again.
I can imagine the heartbreak from all the time you guys spent in preparing for this.
I know a lot of effort goes into organizing these events and the 3 of you (PUNKYMISHA in Guelph too) are motivated purely by a love for the game. Â Once again, you guys are awesome and all your work is hugely appreciated.
Thanks to everyone on the KW organizing committee for your efforts.
Thanks for putting this whole thing together guys! It is really dissapointing what has happened.
Thanks to everyone who had a hand in organizing the tourny, I know it was going to go of smashingly, and would have been A LOT of fun for all of us involved, win or lose.
I agree totally with the notion that it is offensive that the police have decided to politely bust up a clean, safe, non-profit operation as opposed to some of the other games that we know about
I would like to let Shannon, Rob and Tyson know that I, and I'm sure everyone, appreciates all they've done to provide us with fun, rake free, and very well organized fairly low stakes poker games.
I'd personally like to say "THANK YOU!!!", for all the blood, sweat and tears you three have put into organizing this event. You guys are my heroes
Thanks you guys for all the planning and effort of trying to bring the WSOP to KW. Â
To all of you involved in the KWSOP, I am truly sorry that this has happened to such a group of nice people, you really have gone out of your way to put this together, and I thank you for the opportunity to play with some of the best in Ontario
For the organizers, I wouldn't give this a second thouught and I thank you guys for being honest with everyone
Sad news, guys. I know how much work you put into this and how much people were looking forward to this.
Thanks so much much for the idea, the planning, the effort boys. Â Everyone, as evidenced by the full sign up reserve list, appreciated your vision and your organization.
I do want to thank the organizers for trying to organize a clean, fair tournament and making it is as legal as all understood the tourneys.
As far as I am concerned Keep my 10 deposit and use it to challenge the law. Â I'll play free that weekend too if that's how it can still run. Â I'll even donate a trophy for the event.
Dude, I am really sorry to hear that, I looked at the forum earlier, everyone understands, but it still suck
As was stated, very well explained. Â Very unfortunate. Â You guys have to make the call obviously, and I hope everyone will agree that we trust you guys to make the right decision.
Your news really frustrated me too. Â I can only
imagine how upset you are.I would recommend making some new arrangements on or near U of waterloo under a new name. Â If you need a pep talk or just to vent, let me know.
Sorry to hear the bad news. You guys seemed to have put a lot of time into organizing the event and it is to bad there isn't any way around it. I wish there was I'm sure you do to. Anyways thanks a lot everyone appreciates your effort.
Maybe look into what it would take to obtain a not for profit gaming license or something along those lines.
JohnnieH
Note to any officier of the law reading this post:
WE'LL KEEP THE CHIPS OFF THE TABLE, I PROMISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(1) I, like everyone else, am sad to see the KWSOP go down because it was being done for all the right reasons.
(2) Poker is EXPLODING. And, consequently, there are A LOT of people trying to make a buck off it in legal not illegal ways. Take a look at "corned in P.A." in the "Ask Dave" section if you want to see the kind of crap that can go on.
(3) Law enforcement has, correctly in my view, taken notice of this explosion. And, they have obviously allocated some resources to this area. KWSOP has been caught up in this phenomenon. That's a shame, but in hindsight, not a surprise.
(4) The law in this area is not clear. In my opinion, a non-rake poker game held regularly in a bar would be in contravention of the Criminal Code. If I am right, then we can hate the law, but that's the law.
(5) Poker SHOULD be regulated. Yes, there is an element of skill. Perhaps a large element. But, there is also an element of chance. And, there are a lot of "social policy" reasons to carefully regulate the gaming industry -- the possibility of corruption and addiction come to mind. It is too simple to say "The governements wants a piece." If that was the case, there are some pretty easy ways to move in that direction. But, the government does want to regulate this acticity -- like is regulates other "dangerous" activities like alcohol and driving.
(6) I would be leery about playing the underground scene in Ontario right now. The shut down of a good event like the KWSOP tells me that there are assets being directed this way and, cops are generally the good guys... If they have been "put on the case" they are looking much deeper than the KWSOP.
(7) In the end we will all be better off. Government will respond to demand. There will be more large scale poker available and it will be regulated.
Again, I want to reiterate that I am saddened by this news. My opinion about "poker and the law" is counter to many on this forum, but I am in full agreement that the KWSOP organizers are the "good guys."
Point 1:
The three guys running the KWSOP are doing it for the game, they are honest gentlemen who I have enjoyed playing (read losing my money to). They were doing this for the poker playing community, to have a great tournament, and weren't going to make one damned cent... barring of course they place money.
Point 2:
The police have shut this tournament down. The 96 players registered are understandably upset, feel cheated, and truly disappointed. These feelings have led to resentment of the police, and sympathy for the three organizers. Also, there are some scrambling to salvage this thing, simply because they are like-minded to the organizers, poker is a great game, and we would love to play it. I worry that these people may be inadvertently pressuring the organizers. These people should remember that they may be willing to stake more on the line to play a tournament that will very likely be watched and shut down regardless, and the organizers should not be pressured to do this, they've been through enough, let's not make them feel worse about it, I know they feel bad already (but don't guys, we love you!! <gratuitous man flirting>)
Point 3:
The cops are getting a bum rap.Â
I'll say it again.
The cops are not the bad guys here, and are getting a lot of flack for simply doing their jobs.Â
The fact is the police have to try to PREVENT crime. Reacting to it is not enough, and people get hurt / angry. Yes, this is a case that there was not a crime in intent, but legally there may have been a case to be made simply because none of us are lawyers specializing in gaming law, and we may have acted in ignorance.
The bottom line is, KWSOP (beta version maybe?) is not going to fly. We have two options:
  A: Hate the police, put unnecessary pressure on stpboy, reddington, and Zithal, and then watch as whatever we attempt likely gets cracked down on anyways, resulting in legal troubles and reinforcing the hatred.
 B: Learn from what went wrong here, regroup, re-plan, and find a way to make something like this happen, if it's even possible. If not, well, we do our small stakes 24 person tournaments, and be happy with that. Until something happens legally that makes these types of initiatives more accessible, we have to live with it.
 I don't quite know what made me want to post this, but this is what I have concluded. I have been distraught over the loss of the KWSOP (hell, I was #2 on the list!), but I was more concerned that stpboy Zithal and Reddington would be harassed, made to feel guilt, or simply disrespected. I know none of these guys will outright say to someone that they're doing this to them, but please, consider their feelings... they wanted it more than any of us, that's why they were setting it up, and you weren't.
So, STP, Reddington and Rob, I would like to offer my thanks, my praise, my services for anything you could need, and I would love to split a pitcher with each of you, on me (not all in the same night though okay? I can't drink like I used to!). You guys are great!Â
Mark
(P.S. Zithal, I suggest we keep the pitcher away from poker tables, what with my history of staining them!)
If people are willing to play for free, are there a couple of us that get together and talk, maybe bear the expense of renting a hall and trophies and food and stuff and play for nothing other than bragging rights. I am in!
Common gaming house.
First of all, judges are not stupid. You're going to have serious trouble passing off house fees as "donations", whether they appear to be voluntary or not. In fact, even suggesting the idea on a public forum basically immediately kills the idea anyway, since, if such a donation scheme was attempted, the pre-meditation of the scheme is evident.
Second, and more definitively, there is already case law in Canada which already supports a specific kind of "donations" being classified as house fees.
http://www.canlii.org/sk/cas/skpc/2002/2002skpc12.html
Actually, one of the original complainants in that very case was Casino Regina.
They must really have a deep love of poker over there at Casino Regina.
Oh, that was a typo. I meant "money".
ScottyZ
A game that takes no rake, and the organizors don't profit may still be sticky legally.
If you are playing little cash games here and there, or low limit tournaments, the average person isn't making a whole lot of profit overall. Up and little here, down a little there.
With the KWSOP, the prizes were substantial, and it is likely that the person who wins the 4 grand or so for first, isn't going to lose all that going back to the low limit games.
That profit then, should be treated as income, and recorded on a tax return under other sources of income. This is not likely to happen, though the individual would be legally required to. This may be part of the reason that an event with such high stakes got the attention that it did. Therefore, unless the tournament was going to issues T4s to the winners to ensure they record the winnings as income the police could see it as circumventing Revenue Canada.
Just a thought.
I was under the impression you only had to record poker winnings if they are the main source of your income?
State your source.
Gambling income is not necessarily non-taxable in Canada. In fact gambling tax law is arguably even more of a grey area than gambling law itself.
You may be confusing gambling income as a whole with income from a "lottery scheme or a pool system" (Criminal Code, Sec. 205) specifically. The latter is in fact declared as non-taxable income in the Income Tax Act. (Sec. 40 (2))
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/i-3.3/66130.html
Other than lottery, I could find no other law which clearly addresses gambling income.
Usual disclaimer applies.
ScottyZ
I'll just take another moment to thank them again for their vision and effort.
Thanks guys.
I have seen too many good and well meaning people think they are clever enough to outwit the judicial system, only to end up being really hurt. Don't take the advice of a non legal professional (including myself) on these matters. This is serious stuff.
Tax Law course McMaster University 1995. If gambling is not considered your main occupation and source of income it is not taxable in Canada. This is why the US has a withholding tax on winnings. Since Canada won't tax you they will. International tax treaty would kick in if Canada was taxing these amounts and the US would have no rights to tax it.
Not my area of expertise just what I have heard and been taught.
If me and my friends were going to have a poker tournament, and we decided the buyin was going to be $50 and of course it was all going to the prize pool, the game would be legal. If we then decided the game would be more fun with professional dealers and tables, and we all decided to put in $10 bucks and go rent some tables and dealers, and then use them for our upcoming $50 tournament, the game would still be legal. Were just a bunch of friends pitching in $10 to rent stuff, just like when we split pitchers, or go in on a birthday gift or anything like that.
So why then is it illegal to take a fee in a situation like the KWSOP? Just because its strangers playing? Or is it because the fee is considered part of the entry? Why?
If the KWSOP add hadve said, "KWSOP: The buyin for this tourney will be $X and ALL money will go to the prize pool. Anybody who wants to play please throw in $Y to cover your share of the rental costs."
would it then have been legal?
I jsut dont see the difference betweeen a house fee to cover rental expenses and a bunch of friends pooling to rent some cool stuff for their tourney. The only difference I ciould see is that the pooling is done before and seperate of the tournament, and the house fee is more a part of the actual tournament fee.
I do not believe it would be legal.
The fact that the "stuff" is gaming equipment makes a big difference. See Section 197 of the Criminal Code.
Probably not. Fees/donations which claim to be optional are still house fees. There is at least one point of case law supporting this interpretation. Heck, you might even find a link to that particular case in this very thread.
"no one's heard a single word I've said..."
My understanding is that if anyone, including a chair rental company, makes a profit (directly or indirectly) from the fact that a (non-freeroll) poker game is going on, you then have a common gaming house (Criminal Code, Sec 197).
Me neither. You would seem to have a common gaming house in both cases.
"Not a lawyer" disclaimer applies.
ScottyZ
don't worry, i would make a fancy website and post links to it...it's all covered...
BYOChair