KWSOP CANCELLED :(
I suppose the best way to go about this is to be up front and honest with everyone, as we always have been. This morning I was awoken by Waterloo Regional Police Detective Rob Monroe who proceeded to tell me that the Police knew about my poker game and that it was illegal. Detective Monroe asked me politely but decisively to cease and desist running poker at my house as it was an illegal operation.
My immediate reaction was obviously one of shock, confusion, disbelief and to be frank I was somewhat pissed. Rob, Tyson and myself have all researched the legalities of home games, as have many of you. I was still very confident that this detective was misinformed. I reassured him that I never took a rake and was not gaining or profiting from the poker at my house in any way. Detective Monroe said it didn’t matter.
I proposed the following scenario: Friday night after work, you and your buddies want to play some poker. Cash is on the table and no rake is taken, this is illegal? Detective Monroe stated that “Yes, this particular game would be illegal but would likely not get busted. The line in the sand is crossed when you start ‘posting’ games and having a large number of people to your house on a regular basis.†Ok, so maybe he is misinformed somewhat. What he describes above is not illegal. Either way, Detective Monroe said that if I continue to run games at my house I would get busted and then I could fight it in court if I wished.
I asked the officer if one of my neighbors had complained, that would be a legitimate reason for me to desist running games here. He replied, “Well, I’m not going to tell you my sources but no, none of your neighbors complained.†He then mentioned the Bristol Street Night Club and Casino and The Waterloo Poker Cave. He asked me to relay what he had said to Rob and Tyson. The Detective was well aware of the forum and the KWSOP along with www.kwsop.com. I couldn’t debate the issue with him, the advice he gave me was to talk to my lawyer, the OLGC, AGCO and the OPP Illegal gambling division. So I did.
OLGC and the AGCO couldn’t help me. I called the OPP (519) 474 8930 Illegal gambling division. The officer I spoke with clearly said that if I am running a game where the house does not gain, no rake/profit/entry fee on top of the prize pool it is not illegal. I explained the situation to him as I have absolutely nothing to hide, we haven’t done anything wrong. The officer said that my regular games sound legit although he was skeptical due to the nature of his business and the many times he has been lied to. I assured him it wasn’t going to help me to lie to him. After talking for sometime, the officer said “Oh, are you running the KWSOP?†I said, “Yes that’s me. I live on Park Street.†The officer was already on the kwsop website. The officer then became somewhat harsh with me, “It says here $150 plus $10. That is illegal.†I attempted to tell him that the plus $10 was for prizes that were going back into the prize pool and possibly for a few chair rentals (less then $100). The officer clearly explained it to me that we cannot gain from the event in any way, taking money to rent chairs is clearly a gain in his opinion. He gave the example, “If you were to pay $5000 for chair rentals and only take $1000 out of the prize pool, it would be illegal. It does not have to be financial profit to mean a gain.†I understood. So if I take the +10 off and eat the rental fee money, can I run the tournament? “The Waterloo Regional Police stated that if you continued to run games you would be busted, I would go with that†stated the officer.
So we have a couple of options here. Run the tournament and take the risk of getting a criminal record, have everyone who traveled go home 20 minutes into the tournament and have all of the prize pool confiscated? Or the other option, I hate to say it, cancel the tournament. After discussing this with Rob and Tyson, we have all agreed that this is the only option we have.
This really sucks, I truly am very sorry to everyone for this, as are Tyson and Rob. We tried to run this tournament for the poker community and were not taking any rake/profit whatsoever. I feel as though we are being made an example of. Poker is getting to big, let’s run over a few home games to send a buzz out. I am a completely law abiding citizen, as are Rob and Tyson. It is very unfortunate that the example has to lay with three reputable and legal games in the KW area. I’m deeply saddened, disappointed and more cynical today because of this.
I want to thank everyone for their initial interest in the event and Rob and Tyson for their tireless efforts. All monies owed to people will be distributed by the person holding it. Please be patient with this as it could take some time. Once again, my apologies go out to all.
Shannon McMahon
stpboy
My immediate reaction was obviously one of shock, confusion, disbelief and to be frank I was somewhat pissed. Rob, Tyson and myself have all researched the legalities of home games, as have many of you. I was still very confident that this detective was misinformed. I reassured him that I never took a rake and was not gaining or profiting from the poker at my house in any way. Detective Monroe said it didn’t matter.
I proposed the following scenario: Friday night after work, you and your buddies want to play some poker. Cash is on the table and no rake is taken, this is illegal? Detective Monroe stated that “Yes, this particular game would be illegal but would likely not get busted. The line in the sand is crossed when you start ‘posting’ games and having a large number of people to your house on a regular basis.†Ok, so maybe he is misinformed somewhat. What he describes above is not illegal. Either way, Detective Monroe said that if I continue to run games at my house I would get busted and then I could fight it in court if I wished.
I asked the officer if one of my neighbors had complained, that would be a legitimate reason for me to desist running games here. He replied, “Well, I’m not going to tell you my sources but no, none of your neighbors complained.†He then mentioned the Bristol Street Night Club and Casino and The Waterloo Poker Cave. He asked me to relay what he had said to Rob and Tyson. The Detective was well aware of the forum and the KWSOP along with www.kwsop.com. I couldn’t debate the issue with him, the advice he gave me was to talk to my lawyer, the OLGC, AGCO and the OPP Illegal gambling division. So I did.
OLGC and the AGCO couldn’t help me. I called the OPP (519) 474 8930 Illegal gambling division. The officer I spoke with clearly said that if I am running a game where the house does not gain, no rake/profit/entry fee on top of the prize pool it is not illegal. I explained the situation to him as I have absolutely nothing to hide, we haven’t done anything wrong. The officer said that my regular games sound legit although he was skeptical due to the nature of his business and the many times he has been lied to. I assured him it wasn’t going to help me to lie to him. After talking for sometime, the officer said “Oh, are you running the KWSOP?†I said, “Yes that’s me. I live on Park Street.†The officer was already on the kwsop website. The officer then became somewhat harsh with me, “It says here $150 plus $10. That is illegal.†I attempted to tell him that the plus $10 was for prizes that were going back into the prize pool and possibly for a few chair rentals (less then $100). The officer clearly explained it to me that we cannot gain from the event in any way, taking money to rent chairs is clearly a gain in his opinion. He gave the example, “If you were to pay $5000 for chair rentals and only take $1000 out of the prize pool, it would be illegal. It does not have to be financial profit to mean a gain.†I understood. So if I take the +10 off and eat the rental fee money, can I run the tournament? “The Waterloo Regional Police stated that if you continued to run games you would be busted, I would go with that†stated the officer.
So we have a couple of options here. Run the tournament and take the risk of getting a criminal record, have everyone who traveled go home 20 minutes into the tournament and have all of the prize pool confiscated? Or the other option, I hate to say it, cancel the tournament. After discussing this with Rob and Tyson, we have all agreed that this is the only option we have.
This really sucks, I truly am very sorry to everyone for this, as are Tyson and Rob. We tried to run this tournament for the poker community and were not taking any rake/profit whatsoever. I feel as though we are being made an example of. Poker is getting to big, let’s run over a few home games to send a buzz out. I am a completely law abiding citizen, as are Rob and Tyson. It is very unfortunate that the example has to lay with three reputable and legal games in the KW area. I’m deeply saddened, disappointed and more cynical today because of this.
I want to thank everyone for their initial interest in the event and Rob and Tyson for their tireless efforts. All monies owed to people will be distributed by the person holding it. Please be patient with this as it could take some time. Once again, my apologies go out to all.
Shannon McMahon
stpboy
Comments
Its not April Fools, so, i have to assume its for real. A disappointment for sure.
 I want to say something very eloquent and classy, but the best way to say it is honest....
 Everyone is going to be disappointed, but the ones that should be most upset is you three, you've poured hours into this, and everyone knows that you were doing for the pure love of the game.  We can only hope that this doesn't affect the normal games we've already enjoyed, as I can honestly say that I have met more great people, and felt more a part of K/W's community (something the police are trying to develop!) since meeting you all at my first Bristol Street, than at any other time in my life.
 You guys should be commended, not harrassed.
Mark
I don't think anyone that registered for the tournament felt in anyway that you guys were attempting to make any sort of profit off of this tournament (hell, I expected you guys to take a loss over all of this because of rentals etc).
This is truely something that couldn't have been expected.
Hopefully something is resolved, but it is risky in all cases.
I've spent many an hour reading your posts and seeing how everyone has faired...not even being there...
I hope it works out for you. It's an honurable thing to eat the costs of rentals etc. Can you make it a BYOChair
to keep your costs to $0?
Good luck - I hope you can play!
I have to take alot of the responsabilty here, as I really wanted the +10, which is the reason it seems we were shut down. But I hope alot of people can learn from this.
I really wanted to have 'prizes' and wanted to be legit so that a watch, the plaques  etc wouldn't come out of the prize pool and there would be no debate about how much of the cash pool was missing, you would know that everything came out of $960 and all the cash was in the cash prize pool.
We had two other expenses; chiars and food. Â Everything else, chips, tables, website, time, hostelling service for some out of towners. Was all out of our pockets.
I do hope that everyone understands, but it isnt worth the risk to me and my family, I appologize for not being able to fight this to the end even though were probably right, that's a big probably.
Tyson/WPC
I will add that this is not worth the risk to Tyson, Rob and Shannon. If this can't be done without the approval of the authorities then it can't be done.
Mark....community-building is a highly subjective term.
Shannon, you guys have done an amazing job, put in heroic efforts and invested gobs of personal time, all for your love of the game, and I know we all appreciate this so thanks again.
I think that we all should take this opportunity to make this a real issue outside of the poker community. If the law wants to make an example out of us/this, then we should respond in kind by blowing this up and making it a very prominent public issue.
By this I mean getting as many influential people involved, such as our local politicians/MPP's/etc., as well as maybe calling on some high-profile names in the poker community. Maybe a plea for help/assistance from someone/people like Negraneau (sp?) perhaps?
Something. We have to do something to bring awareness to the unfairness and unchecked heavy-handedness of the law as it is being applied to you and used to pressure you. That's not right, especially to someone like me who is all about fairness, morality and ethics.
What about a postponement of the tournament (indefinitely of course) instead of a cancellation until this can be sorted out?
I seriously suggest a rallying of the troops to look for help from some high-level shakers and movers.
If the authorities are aware of the KWSOP and such, then they are also very much aware of the other tournament postings and such. Is this strictly a Waterloo Region crackdown or a province-wide effort or what? I know KW is a very ultra-conservative, resistant-to-change community but come on.
What if any is the impact of this on future home game hostings by either you Shannon, WPC or Bristol?
I can't even type anymore that's how angry I am. It really steams me when the little guy gets steamrolled. I know life is unfair sometimes but geez.
Don't give up Shannon! There is always a way somehow...just have to figure it out!
Sammy.
They currently have the nuts but I think you still have some outs!!!
I have only been to a few games at WPC, but I know a lot of effort goes into organizing these events and the 3 of you (PUNKYMISHA in Guelph too) are motivated purely by a love for the game. The only crime here is that you may not be allowed to continue offering this valuable and much appreciated service to the community.
I agree with the sentiments of others that, hopefully, this is not the end to these events. I would be willing to help with chairs, refreshments, or whatever is needed  - it certainly should not come out of the organizers' pockets. I would also be willing to contribute to a legal fund to help you research/fight to keep these games going (if you decide it's worth it to go to that level).
Once again, you guys are awesome and all your work is hugely appreciated.
Tim
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that something will change and it can go ahead as scheduled. If donations in lieu of the +$10 will solve the problem, I'm all for it.
Do you think it's worth seeking legal counsel (I'd be happy to contribute to a legal defense fund). Or maybe you have access to free legal advice .........are any forum members lawyers??
Good luck.
I'm not attending the KWSOP but have been keeping my eye on this section and have looked at the website. Hopefully you guys can set some precedent with your local police and rectify this situation.
Good luck!
Heh, due to my current tagline, no I am not a lawyer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm bummed that this has happened but I also believe that there is an opportunity to step back and try another approach. With everyone being aware of what happened I can see more information bubbling up that will allow the tournament to happen without any interference.
It was mentioned that the +10 may have been the problem and what caused the officer to take action. This can be rectified, nobody has to be out of pocket for things like chair rental for the tourney. Hey everyone, bring your own chair. Don't have one? You can rent one for yourself from "X Chair Rentals". Need some food? Pot luck. Location? It's summer time, lets sit outside.
SP
I do have a half-assed solution: If you can't get this fixed in time, what about playing it online? I know it's not the same, but it would be better than not playing at all. I think it was Sloth that had a good idea about how to run a tourney on PS using a $1 private tourney.
I don't think ScottyZ is a lawyer, but he plays one on TV (or maybe just in the forum)1
1 I am so banned -
I guess I'm too predictable. I already sent a legal-type essay to Stpboy about this via PM.1
ScottyZ
1You're probably going to be okay. After all, how could I possibly ban someone who makes such good use of footnotes? :cool:
I knew you would love the footnotes!
Although, maybe some others knew it was coming (ie, Heuthers telling us they were scared, maybe they were tipped off?)
I will have a chat with some of the lawyers I know and see what they say.
Again, as stated before, Thanks to everyone who had a hand in organizing the tourny, I know it was going to go of smashingly, and would have been A LOT of fun for all of us involved, win or lose.
So...are we goping ot be taking back underground...hehe go to the corner store "I'd like to um, exchange an egg?!"
I know you guys had put a lot of effort into this. I had cancelled a few weeks ago because I was going to be out of town unexpectedley but I had really hoped this would be a big success.
I can think of one positive though, Shannon and Rob, if you make it to the finals of the degree poker on Friday night you don't have to worry about the KWSOP. Sorry Tyson, I have no bright side for you
No way...... kidding or serious??
Absolutely.
I have always thought that this was the case, and now it seems crystal clear that this certainly is the case.
What a nice segue into this item from the FAQ: Forum Posting Guidelines.
http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=579.0
ScottyZ
Ewwwww......... creepy!
We weren't the biggest game out there, but we were one of the loudest and I guess we got noticed. I think the +10 to cover additional prizes and chair/chip rental was, in hindsight, a bad idea. It comes across as rake, when it was never meant to be that. I still don't think that would have changed much. I also get the feeling that they don't like us giving cute names to our homes. I just thought "The Bristol Street Nightclub and Casino" sounds a bit more fun than "My Basement"
It's a shame that the police and detectives don't come out and let us know what they'd like to see. (Though it was nice that we did get a heads up about this) I think they'd find that the players here are reasonable folks and we could have reached some sort of compriomise so that they players are happy, because they get to play poker, and the cops are happy because nothing illegal's going on.
A few kind words from both sides and the police and dectives could then free up their resources and hunt out drug dealers and violent offenders, but I guess an illegal activity is an illegal activity.
So where does that leave my place? Hopefully nowhere different that what I've been doing for the past year... running low limit, rake-free, LEGAL, home games. I'd like to contact the police so that I can make doubly sure that what I'm doing does not step outside the bounds of the law.