Alternately, you can return to basics like we all kinda did when we started - "email me for details (including location and time)" might be a way around the problem even once this blows over.
I agree totally with the notion that it is offensive that the police have decided to politely bust up a clean, safe, non-profit operation as opposed to some of the other games that we know about, but still - the point was correctly made that wrong is wrong.
I maintain that you can keep operating, just move WAY under the radar.
I would like to let Shannon, Rob and Tyson know that I, and I'm sure everyone, appreciates all they've done to provide us with fun, rake free, and very well organized fairly low stakes poker games.
That being said I agree with a few of the other members on one point. I'm furious and we shouldn't give up hope quite yet. My family has close ties with several very influential people in this region and I intend to make some inquiries about this matter. I have know idea if anyone will be able to help us but I'll try and I recommend that anyone else who might be able to, do the same. I can't see how they have any legal grounds to still prohibit this once Shannon told them we would do away with the +10.
We have not heard the last word on this matter.
Talk about going on TILT!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, I'm mad.
It's too bad that the police had shut you(us) down when there is a hellva lot of other sh!t going down in this city. How can other big tournaments get away with it? It doesn't seem fair.
I'd personally like to say "THANK YOU!!!", for all the blood, sweat and tears you three have put into organizing this event. You guys are my heroes.
Hey guys....knocked heads with my brother who is a lawyer and who's wife is as well and a rake free game is not an illegal event. Â Covering costs of renting the facilities,chairs etc...is not illegal. Â The only technicality could be on the food and drink, depending on who is profiting from it etc...
Again...I repeat....this event is not illegal. Â Obviously I am not stating my life on what he says, look into it for yourself....call the OPP illegal gaming commission in the Toronto branch. Â I had a discussion once there with a detective who told me the same thing my brother just confirmed.
think about it what could you be charged for...it would be like organizing a baseball tournament where teams have to pay there entry fee to enter!!!
From what I am gathering this site is being watched??? I am not sure that anyone wants to take any chances until they get a better/ more favourable answer from the law.
Jeeesh, imagine what would happen if someone were to threaten THE PRESIDENT (of Dubai) on here or something.......
Forgot one more thing.....there might be a technicality if the events are out your home when it comes to a disturbing the peace issue they might try and nail you for (cars constantly coming and going at late hours, parking on the streets etc... Â but if you keep all of your accounting straight and keep receipts for rentals etc...you will be fine.
I maintain that you can keep operating, just move WAY under the radar.
See, I can't work that way. I don't see why I'd want or need to move WAY under the radar for something that's legal? To me, that's like admitting that it's wrong when it's not. When Bristol Street XVI comes up, it'll still be posted on the Board, it'll still be rake-free, it'll still be a blast and it'lll still be legal.
I also want to say thanks to everyone here for the great outpouring of support. I have no doubt that the KWSOP will return, but I think we want to do it with the input of the OPP so that this doesn't repeat.
Well interesting developments in Guelph. I arrived home from work today (20 mins ago) to find 2 police crusiers awaiting my arrival. I was asked about the GMSOP and the KWSOP and my connection with either/both. I mentioned that I have nothing to do with the KWSOP and the GMSOP was my brain thought and baby. They then started to hound me on what I have done so far and what I have planned to do and they basically said that this would be considered an illegal gaming house if any proceeds goes to the house to cover any costs or in an effort to make a profit. I sighted the criminal code to them as I have analyzed it to death myself. (I am not a Lawyer) and stated that I was under the assumption that expenses could be covered. The officer stated in almost the same words as the one in KW that proceeds are any money derived from the event and that it does not matter what it would eventually be allocated to. Wow the crazy thing is the GMSOP was dying a natural death they didn't need to put it in front of the firing squad. I have scheduled an interview to discuss having rake free events and from the feedback I got it seems like NO RAKE, NO EXPENSE FEE, No MEMBERSHIP FEE and no profit on the sale of food or alcohol would make it a legal game. I will keep you posted.
I Â know its been said a hole lot but this SUCKS!!!
Thanks you guys for all the planning and effort of trying to bring the WSOP to KW. Â If all it takes is a donation to help cover cost then I'm sure we will all gladly help.
OK, if the wole thing is 100% legal without having the +$10, then why don't we all just bring our own chair and snacks? I think the thing thats pissing off the cops is the size of the game, but if these changes are made is there anything they can do? Disturbing the peace is all I can think of. Maybe we could go to 4-5 venues to limit the amount of people. What if we "explain" our situation to some of the halls & legions around, perhaps they'll donate some time (although they couldn't sell food/beer)?
Shit, anyone here live in the country with a Big Ole Barn?
Taking a fee of any kind is the problem. Remove that and if people choose to bring things (read: food, chair, prizes), that's cool. That's the setup for any event run at York U and that is definitely clear of any problems.
Zithal, I intended 'under the radar' to mean lighten a little on the PR and perhaps wait for things to cool down a little.
I'd like to see EXACTLY what the Criminal Code of Canada states on this matter. Then the organizers of the KWSOP could follow the rule to the letter of the law, and we could all still enjoy this event.
I'm perfectly happy just playing the KWSOP without trophy's, prizes, food, or rental chairs(I have a few)
Hell, I think we should still play the KWSOP WITHOUT THE MONEY!!!
Would that be considered illegal gambling? Let a cop sit and watch at the each houses and see that no money is being exchanged, just 96 players passing cards and chips around a table for 2 and a half days.
The winner has the honor of being the 2005 KWSOP Champion winning a "prize" of Zero Dollars!!
All the cops are trying to do is give us a heads up so things don't get out of hand. Everyone knows that holding rake free games are legal. Just like everyone knows that possession of drugs is illegal. But you don't see the police going around frisking everyone. They're just following government orders to shut down local games so ppl will have nowhere to play and forced to head to the casinos.
I know lots of ppl from school that host keg parties and I've lived with friends that held keg parties almost every other week. We advertised through email, phone, and by putting up flyers at school and everytime the campus police or local police would come by and check on us to see what's going on. All the cops ever did was inform us that selling beer without a license is illegal blah blah blah and that if there are complaints then they would come back later and shut the party down etc. And of course they never did come back once cause we always kept the party in control.
So if they let all these alcohol parties continue on then I don't see why rake free poker can't live on.
WTF is  going on......... it's a province-wide sting operation!!  There's a mole ...... let the witchhunt begin!
Ya, a mole whiterabbit, called the www...do you think the 1200 of us are the only ones here? Â Witch hunt is the wrong idea.
I'd totally understand if Rob, Shannon and Tyson pulled out, regardless of the +10 being removed.
Considering that Det Monroe was already at Shannon's, I think its foolish to proceed with the event without some form of consent from the police. Â We are upfront, professional (ie-working stiffs) people. Â Who can request clarification of what can be done to make it legal (for those putting their homes up for us to play in) so that NO ONE gets hurt. Â If they have a list, lets get the list, adhere to the things on it and play some cards. Â
I'll bring some popcorn and my own chair...I'm a little manly to wear a bracelet...i can do without the +10 and will bring 10 chairs if it makes a difference.
Who knows, there's 3 weeks to have open discussions with the powers that be, maybe this can still be pulled off.
Dave Wolff
p.s. noise violations? Â My 6 year olds birthday party causes a bigger ruckus than our poker games (costs me more too!!!).
The safest streets around will be the ones that these games let out onto, no drunks, no drugs...just poker players.
I think it's pretty obvious that you doomed yourself by listing the entry fee explicitly as $xxx + $yy..
Next time , just say $160 and let it be known via word of mouth that where the extra 10 bucks is going.
But I must say, I love the priority of the police department.. Annoy the normal people trying to have a little fun while massive corruptions and theft and murders run rampant.
Good job Mr Officer that reads this board. You are completely useless.
Johnnie...exactly...I have already booked the weekend off...I'd play just the same.
I'd love to make the trip, even if it is just for a friendly game with no money. I think it would be cool to have a lot of the forum guys/girls and non-forum members just to get together ( a forum convention??? ).
To all of you involved in the KWSOP, I am truly sorry that this has happened to such a group of nice people, you really have gone out of your way to put this together, and I thank you for the opportunity to play with some of the best in Ontario.
I called the OPP (519) 474 8930 Illegal gambling division. The officer I spoke with clearly said that if I am running a game where the house does not gain, no rake/profit/entry fee on top of the prize pool it is not illegal.
I doubt it. The info is right here for all to see. Shannon, if you want to do this send an email to all of the people you "know". If they have a buddy that they signed up then they need to vouch for them.
My concern at this point would be, running the KWSOP and people taking the weekend off or driving in from wherever and then it getting busted. We could run it legally, IMO. I can't run it without Rob and Tyson though and they have more at stake then I do. Tyson has a wife and kids, I wouldn't ask that of him. "Sorry wife and neighbors and kid, the cops are here for Daddy." Yes, I know obviously they wouldn't take him away but it is still embarrassing. Plus the fact that they could very well take the money. I open for suggestions...
First of all I think people need to get rid of the anger towards the police here. Sure, it sucks.......hard. And sure, there are an INFINITE amount of more important things/issues/illegalities that they could be investigating instead of this, but as a couple of posters already mentioned, finding this stuff out NOW is a big difference from finding it out as your sitting at the table and the cops are writing out tickets for everyone.....and who knows what for the organizers.
In my opinion, the answer is simple.......not flying under the radar, not emailing a secret location......it's to simply find out the parameters from the police as to HOW this can happen. If there's a way, then we find a way to adhere to it, and if there's not a way, then we respect the efforts of the guys who have put their time into this and not even siggest that they put their neck on the line. It's a HUGE risk vs. reward scenario with really no reward for those who stand to lose the most.
So while we all may be seriously pissed, and rightfully so......let's try to figure out what can be done. Cooler heads always prevail, and it sounds like Shannon et al are being quite painstaking in researching the options here. Let's find out what happens......
On another note, Shannon, thanks for a fun time at the satellite. It was my first time playing with you and a lot of players there and I really enjoyed myself. I look forward to seeing you guys all again sometime soon.
Haven't read the thread, but I wanted to put my opinion forth.
Absolutely correct decision to cancel the tournament given the circumstances. Be happy the cops gave us a heads up and didn't wait until the tournament to bust it. Actually good of them, as they likely know we are a bunch of law abiding people out for some fun.
For the organizers, I wouldn't give this a second thouught and I thank you guys for being honest with everyone. Poker is for the long run -- they'll be more tournaments.
Comments
I agree totally with the notion that it is offensive that the police have decided to politely bust up a clean, safe, non-profit operation as opposed to some of the other games that we know about, but still - the point was correctly made that wrong is wrong.
I maintain that you can keep operating, just move WAY under the radar.
Good luck in any case
That being said I agree with a few of the other members on one point. I'm furious and we shouldn't give up hope quite yet. My family has close ties with several very influential people in this region and I intend to make some inquiries about this matter. I have know idea if anyone will be able to help us but I'll try and I recommend that anyone else who might be able to, do the same. I can't see how they have any legal grounds to still prohibit this once Shannon told them we would do away with the +10.
We have not heard the last word on this matter.
Talk about going on TILT!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, I'm mad.
It's too bad that the police had shut you(us) down when there is a hellva lot of other sh!t going down in this city. How can other big tournaments get away with it? It doesn't seem fair.
I'd personally like to say "THANK YOU!!!", for all the blood, sweat and tears you three have put into organizing this event. You guys are my heroes.
If you need some help, let Wraych and I know
JohnnieH
Again...I repeat....this event is not illegal. Â Obviously I am not stating my life on what he says, look into it for yourself....call the OPP illegal gaming commission in the Toronto branch. Â I had a discussion once there with a detective who told me the same thing my brother just confirmed.
think about it what could you be charged for...it would be like organizing a baseball tournament where teams have to pay there entry fee to enter!!!
Jeeesh, imagine what would happen if someone were to threaten THE PRESIDENT (of Dubai) on here or something.......
See, I can't work that way. I don't see why I'd want or need to move WAY under the radar for something that's legal? To me, that's like admitting that it's wrong when it's not. When Bristol Street XVI comes up, it'll still be posted on the Board, it'll still be rake-free, it'll still be a blast and it'lll still be legal.
I also want to say thanks to everyone here for the great outpouring of support. I have no doubt that the KWSOP will return, but I think we want to do it with the input of the OPP so that this doesn't repeat.
Thanks you guys for all the planning and effort of trying to bring the WSOP to KW. Â If all it takes is a donation to help cover cost then I'm sure we will all gladly help.
Shit, anyone here live in the country with a Big Ole Barn?
WTF is  going on......... it's a province-wide sting operation!!  There's a mole ...... let the witchhunt begin!
Zithal, I intended 'under the radar' to mean lighten a little on the PR and perhaps wait for things to cool down a little.
I'm perfectly happy just playing the KWSOP without trophy's, prizes, food, or rental chairs(I have a few)
Hell, I think we should still play the KWSOP WITHOUT THE MONEY!!!
Would that be considered illegal gambling? Let a cop sit and watch at the each houses and see that no money is being exchanged, just 96 players passing cards and chips around a table for 2 and a half days.
The winner has the honor of being the 2005 KWSOP Champion winning a "prize" of Zero Dollars!!
JohnnieH
yeah......I'm still tilting...........
Hmmm, going to cue up one of my old NWA cd's....fuc fuck fuck da police!
Though, I think I may donate something to signify the win... maybe a badge?
Mark
I know lots of ppl from school that host keg parties and I've lived with friends that held keg parties almost every other week. We advertised through email, phone, and by putting up flyers at school and everytime the campus police or local police would come by and check on us to see what's going on. All the cops ever did was inform us that selling beer without a license is illegal blah blah blah and that if there are complaints then they would come back later and shut the party down etc. And of course they never did come back once cause we always kept the party in control.
So if they let all these alcohol parties continue on then I don't see why rake free poker can't live on.
Dom
Okay.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42557.html
Most of it is covered in Sections 197 and 201.
ScottyZ
I don't know this, particularly because this is false.
ScottyZ
Ya, a mole whiterabbit, called the www...do you think the 1200 of us are the only ones here? Â Witch hunt is the wrong idea.
I'd totally understand if Rob, Shannon and Tyson pulled out, regardless of the +10 being removed.
Considering that Det Monroe was already at Shannon's, I think its foolish to proceed with the event without some form of consent from the police. Â We are upfront, professional (ie-working stiffs) people. Â Who can request clarification of what can be done to make it legal (for those putting their homes up for us to play in) so that NO ONE gets hurt. Â If they have a list, lets get the list, adhere to the things on it and play some cards. Â
I'll bring some popcorn and my own chair...I'm a little manly to wear a bracelet...i can do without the +10 and will bring 10 chairs if it makes a difference.
Who knows, there's 3 weeks to have open discussions with the powers that be, maybe this can still be pulled off.
Dave Wolff
p.s. noise violations? Â My 6 year olds birthday party causes a bigger ruckus than our poker games (costs me more too!!!).
The safest streets around will be the ones that these games let out onto, no drunks, no drugs...just poker players.
Next time , just say $160 and let it be known via word of mouth that where the extra 10 bucks is going.
But I must say, I love the priority of the police department.. Annoy the normal people trying to have a little fun while massive corruptions and theft and murders run rampant.
Good job Mr Officer that reads this board. You are completely useless.
Ummmmm........ I was kidding. Next time I'll use the "just joking" smiley.
I'd love to make the trip, even if it is just for a friendly game with no money. I think it would be cool to have a lot of the forum guys/girls and non-forum members just to get together ( a forum convention???
To all of you involved in the KWSOP, I am truly sorry that this has happened to such a group of nice people, you really have gone out of your way to put this together, and I thank you for the opportunity to play with some of the best in Ontario.
Hey I'm just going by what I read...
Dom
If you want it to happen, then find new venues, stop posting information online about it, and talk to only those people who are registered.
No one outside of those who are play need ever know that it even took place.
http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=4619.new#new
JohnnieH
stp
In my opinion, the answer is simple.......not flying under the radar, not emailing a secret location......it's to simply find out the parameters from the police as to HOW this can happen. If there's a way, then we find a way to adhere to it, and if there's not a way, then we respect the efforts of the guys who have put their time into this and not even siggest that they put their neck on the line. It's a HUGE risk vs. reward scenario with really no reward for those who stand to lose the most.
So while we all may be seriously pissed, and rightfully so......let's try to figure out what can be done. Cooler heads always prevail, and it sounds like Shannon et al are being quite painstaking in researching the options here. Let's find out what happens......
On another note, Shannon, thanks for a fun time at the satellite. It was my first time playing with you and a lot of players there and I really enjoyed myself. I look forward to seeing you guys all again sometime soon.
Sean
Absolutely correct decision to cancel the tournament given the circumstances. Be happy the cops gave us a heads up and didn't wait until the tournament to bust it. Actually good of them, as they likely know we are a bunch of law abiding people out for some fun.
For the organizers, I wouldn't give this a second thouught and I thank you guys for being honest with everyone. Poker is for the long run -- they'll be more tournaments.
Cheers
Magi