If you make a mistake by calling with a marginal hand preflop, can you make up for that mistake by playing according to pot odds post-flop?
Once the initial mistake is made the question is how to deal with the situation you're in.
Are you in a sitaution where you'll be throwing good money after bad or is your best move to just end your lose on that situation now, since pot odds don't dictate that your results from here forward will be positive.
so good post-flop play won't correct the mistake pre-flop but what it will do is help you maximize the results from the situation you've gotten yourself into
The more important question is, why are you asking?
If you make a mistake by calling with a marginal hand preflop, can you make up for that mistake by playing according to pot odds post-flop?
If it was a mistake, over the long run it will still be a mistake, regardless of how you salvage the hand post flop. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a mistake pre-flop (see Scotty's remark).
Would you make a -EV bet pre-flop to build a pot that's so big you are getting odds to call any two cards post flop or on a re-raise? I'm thinking of Harthgosh's 42 raise in the 500 Sunday tourney as an example.
If the sub-text of your post was "Should a player who substantially outclasses his opponents play more hands than usual pre-flop?" then I'd say yes, absolutely.
As an extra tidbit, I've seen this termed as: Floating - Making a bad* call with the intention of outplaying your opponent on further streets.
*what would normally be a -EV play without taking skill into consideration.
Inkling confirmed. Return to base. Again though, some excellent points regardless. I'd like to think that I must be really skilled at generating solid poker discussion if I can do it when I'm trying to be funny.
But really, I'm delusional, and probably not that funny.
But this brings up a question in my mind. How do you define 'mistake' in NL? If you try to steal with bad cards but the BB calls, did you make a mistake? If you follow up with a huge bet and the BB subsequently folds, have you corrected your mistake?
Here's a little something for A_A: :mad: :frown: :biggrin: :eek: :rolleyes:
knock yourself out...
And I thought I was highly delusional about making my monthly goal. Woo whoo -- I just came second in the step 5 tourney. Things are looking good once again. The heck with BB/100 hands -- lol. Ok, let me revel for a few minutes. BB/100 tomorrow.
And I thought I was highly delusional about making my monthly goal. Woo whoo -- I just came second in the step 5 tourney. Things are looking good once again. The heck with BB/100 hands -- lol. Ok, let me revel for a few minutes. BB/100 tomorrow.
Cheers
Magi
wow, that must be a big payday ... $2-3000 if i recall
did you buy-in directly or work your way up the ladder
wow, that must be a big payday ... $2-3000 if i recall
did you buy-in directly or work your way up the ladder
Five big uns. :eek: Bought in for $11 on a lark to kill some time while I was taking a beating on the bad beat tables. Funny thing was that the first one was a limit tourney. I was able to switch to NL. And, then I asked if I could have the 1k entry fee for Step 5, in cash. Glad they didn't let me take the cash.
I thought it was 1st-$4500. 2nd-$2500. 3rd- $1800. 4th and 5th got a freeroll into level 5 again. Could be wrong , I am going senile. Won a seat into level 5 as well from the $11 buyin, to afraid to use it ( poof there goes my chance) been sitting there for 3 weeks, waiting to get the courage to play the last level ( would gladly take the 1k for the buyin if it was available).
I thought it was 1st-$4500. 2nd-$2500. 3rd- $1800. 4th and 5th got a freeroll into level 5 again. Could be wrong , I am going senile. Won a seat into level 5 as well from the $11 buyin, to afraid to use it ( poof there goes my chance) been sitting there for 3 weeks, waiting to get the courage to play the last level ( would gladly take the 1k for the buyin if it was available).
Congrads on your money finish Magi, great job.
It's the two table tourney. Step 5 -- 9k, 5k, 3.6k, 2.4k. No other prizes. I was happy to get the 2.4k. Gravy after that.
Just jump in when you're not tired. They seem to get going around 8:00. Looks like only one per night.
GL to ya. Patience & aggression seem to work well on sample of 1, if that's worth anything.
Quote from: BBC Z
Is there anyone else out there that sees the error of this statement? I want to say it's bad, but I don't think I can come up with a touchy feely vanilla politically correct way to express myself that won't offend everyone.
What does 'Do the right thing.' mean? You make an error preflop so you should fold the flop regardless?
Here an idea: Think about HOW MUCH you lose on each mistake. A loose preflop call can cost you 1 bet maximum. Folding a big draw in a pot can cost you large %'s of the pot.
Here's a thoguht you XXXX XXX. FOLD PRE-FLOP. The XXXX mistake is make pre-flop. CAN I Say that again. It's PRE-FLOP. Are you XXXXX XXX, or am i talking to a dead XXXX stump. Not making the original mistake is the BEST course of action. But, youXXXXXXX may not realize that you should not make the first mistake.
Well, I have to agree with you both here.....I absolutely agree that you should strive to not make the original pre-flop mistake, who wouldn't...and hopefully we all get to that point someday Lou...I also believe that low-limit and in particular beginning players should stick to ABC poker and in most cases play premium hands and play tighter as you learn the game...that would include looking for a reason to fold rather then play, especially in a raised pot (and really aren't we talking about the mediocre or borderline hands here anyways?)...however, as is human nature, we make mistakes so I also think BBC's point is very worthwhile. When you find you've perhaps made a mistake pre-flop I think it is a tremendous error to simply fold your hand. I believe on every street you need re-evaluate your hand obviously taking in any new information you have gathered including but not limited to odds (pot odds, implied odds, reverse odds, suckout odds, super sized double chocolate swirl almond crunch fat free odds or whatever!).
You're both obviously successful and I value both your opinions but I think because of the rift between you that in trying to each make your own points you're not willing to concede that the other persons point has merit or is worthwhile. I think if you stepped back and thought about it you'd both say that in some cases both points are valid.
Quote from: BBC Z
Is there anyone else out there that sees the error of this statement? I want to say it's bad, but I don't think I can come up with a touchy feely vanilla politically correct way to express myself that won't offend everyone.
What does 'Do the right thing.' mean? You make an error preflop so you should fold the flop regardless?
Here an idea: Think about HOW MUCH you lose on each mistake. A loose preflop call can cost you 1 bet maximum. Folding a big draw in a pot can cost you large %'s of the pot.
Here's a thoguht you XXXX XXX. FOLD PRE-FLOP. The XXXX mistake is make pre-flop. CAN I Say that again. It's PRE-FLOP.  Are you XXXXX XXX, or am i talking to a dead XXXX stump.  Not making the original mistake is the BEST course of action. But, youXXXXXXX may not realize that you should not make the first mistake.
Well, I have to agree with you both here.....I absolutely agree that you should strive to not make the original pre-flop mistake, who wouldn't...and hopefully we all get to that point someday Lou...I also believe that low-limit and in particular beginning players should stick to ABC poker and in most cases play premium hands and play tighter as you learn the game...that would include looking for a reason to fold rather then play, especially in a raised pot (and really aren't we talking about the mediocre or borderline hands here anyways?)...however, as is human nature, we make mistakes so I also think BBC's point is very worthwhile. When you find you've perhaps made a mistake pre-flop I think it is a tremendous error to simply fold your hand. I believe on every street you need re-evaluate your hand obviously taking in any new information you have gathered including but not limited to odds (pot odds, implied odds, reverse odds, suckout odds, super sized double chocolate swirl almond crunch fat free odds or whatever!).
You're both obviously successful and I value both your opinions but I think because of the rift between you that in trying to each make your own points you're not willing to concede that the other persons point has merit or is worthwhile. I think if you stepped back and thought about it you'd both say that in some cases both points are valid.
entertaining reading for sure!
Hehe, you had to bring this up again huh. No problem. Lots of time has passed and after a year I've grown as a player and a person. The funny thing is the side argument on the post was more of an argument style which doesn't lead to a productive discussion. So, I choose never to enter into a discussion.
Poker is about learning and having an open mind. While my mind was/is closed to discussing this with BBC, I always look for problems with my thinking, including my assertion in this argument. As the year went by, I read many articles from pros who play much better than myself. And, I'm still comfortable with my position.Â
What happened with this experiment anyways?
Anyone else keeping records of their experiences?
I still went ahead with the experiment. I won my way into another World Series and had very good success during the year. Even so, I realize I still have a LONG way to go.
While folks got stuck on my goal of 5BB/100 hands and other crazy stuff, my post was more of a goal to force me to do everything I could to squeeze every single BB out of every single game.
After much thinking I realized there were two parts to my "what if".Â
1) The first part is doing the things which make you play your "A" game every time you step into a game. Never go on tilt and never play less than your skills allow. This alone leads to a huge leap in win rate.
2) The second part is about improving your game so you can go to the next level -- wherever that may be. Your skills at any one point are not as good as they can be. Doing things to improve your game will lead to a huge leap in your win rate. More importantly, it will also allow you to jump a level or two in limits.
Because the post got totally out of whack I really didn't feel like discussing my conclusions or my thought process along the way. Rather I've shared my findings with friends who play. I can honestly say I have so much to learn in both 1) playing my "A" game all the time and 2) improving my skills. I have a clearer picture now. I have a process. And, now I just need to improve every day.Â
Interesting that this thread has been opened back up. I've actually read through it a number of times over the past week, and have printed out a small quote from Lou that I keep in my pocket for regular reading. I've recently been going through a ridiculous bad stretch, and I've found it to be true:
Reviewing my play was extremely helpful. Â The truth of the matter is that the bad beats really don't amount to much. Â When running bad, it really exposes my poor play. Â Had I not made those poor plays, I'd likely be running at 1-2BB/100 hands, at a minimum. Â What I've realized is that it's not the bad beats which make or break a session. It's really how you handle the bad beats. Â On a good note, I fixed the bad plays, but my luck kept getting worse. So, breaking even has helped.
While folks got stuck on my goal of 5BB/100 hands and other crazy stuff, my post was more of a goal to force me to do everything I could to squeeze every single BB out of every single game.
Because the post got totally out of whack I really didn't feel like discussing my conclusions or my thought process along the way. Rather I've shared my findings with friends who play. I can honestly say I have so much to learn in both 1) playing my "A" game all the time and 2) improving my skills. I have a clearer picture now. I have a process. And, now I just need to improve every day.
I have been playing for a couple of years and been up and down. Over the last 6 months i am finally startign to put some consistency together and not redepositing every week. now that i can consistently win low limit 2/4 limit, 1/2 nl etc... i am really focusing on setting goals. i exceeded my 1st goal to build my online bankroll to >5k, but want to win an entry to the main event. There are many routes, STSNG, MTSNG, Steps. what route did you take and what do you reccomend?
I have been playing for a couple of years and been up and down. Over the last 6 months i am finally startign to put some consistency together and not redepositing every week. now that i can consistently win low limit 2/4 limit, 1/2 nl etc... i am really focusing on setting goals. i exceeded my 1st goal to build my online bankroll to >5k, but want to win an entry to the main event. There are many routes, STSNG, MTSNG, Steps. what route did you take and what do you reccomend?
Thx
Jim :
First of all -- congratulations! That's a real accomplishment. Personally, I'd be looking to reward myself and go out and buy something really cool for a grand or so. Perhaps a digital camera, Ipod etc. Otherwise it becomes a real treadmill. You'll get a greater sense of accomplishment with something tangible.
When I first started playing NL tournaments I made a commitment to myself not to play the $200 sunday tournament unless I could win a $3 rebuy MTT sattelite. I had more than enough to buy a direct entry. However, I figured if I couldn't beat the $3 players, I had no hope in hell to beat the $200 players.Â
As it turned out, I won an entry into the $500 monthly tournament and I used the tournament dollars to take a few flyers. I won an entry to the $650 in a $3 rebuy and then won my first WSOP in the 650. It was a really, really tough tournament with John Dagastino and Layne Flack playing. However, I managed to win an entry. The $3 rebuys really gave me a solid understanding of how to win a satellite.Â
The next year the same sort of thing happened. I won a $200 entry and decided to use the bucks on a $160 double shootout. Notwithsanding what my daughter said, it was a really, really tough tournament to win. I told her I won in the morning. She says "what place did you come" I said first. She says "wow, it must have been a really easy tournament" (she was 6).
I don't think any one tournament form is easier than another. I like winning some bucks in the $3 rebuys and then playing those bucks to win an entry to the WSOP. The thing is I never, really really wanted to win the WSOP win. I just played my best and it worked out. When I tried for the Foxwoods I couldn't win an entry. The following year I just played on a lark, and I won an entry.Â
So, I would say just give it a shot and don't count on it. It'll work out at some point.
Thx for the insite. I have done not bad. I won a $6 rebuy on PP for a 5.6k payday about 3 month ago and last week finshed 235 in the 500k guar on pp. I feel i am starting to really get the flow of the blinds, #'s and position, whereas in the past i would just play the cards and people a bit.
I am circulating on steps, but find it a real grind. Got an opinion on steps versus entering a regular Satellite?
Thx again
Jim. S (3rd at westside champ event to your 2nd - just to jog your memory) :
Comments
Are you in a sitaution where you'll be throwing good money after bad or is your best move to just end your lose on that situation now, since pot odds don't dictate that your results from here forward will be positive.
so good post-flop play won't correct the mistake pre-flop but what it will do is help you maximize the results from the situation you've gotten yourself into
The more important question is, why are you asking?
If it was a mistake, over the long run it will still be a mistake, regardless of how you salvage the hand post flop. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a mistake pre-flop (see Scotty's remark).
Would you make a -EV bet pre-flop to build a pot that's so big you are getting odds to call any two cards post flop or on a re-raise? I'm thinking of Harthgosh's 42 raise in the 500 Sunday tourney as an example.
Cheers
Magi
Some good replies though, despite the fact that the question itself was, in my mind, akin to poking at a recently healed wound...
*what would normally be a -EV play without taking skill into consideration.
Lol, we're like putty in your hands. Just think how easy it would be to put up the bait
Cheers
Magi
Hey, I for one was tactfully addressing, not tactfully ignoring.
I had an inkling that you were just trying to be a $h*t di$turB*r.
ScottyZ
But really, I'm delusional, and probably not that funny.
I love Christmas smileys, yes, yes I do.
Here's a little something for A_A:
knock yourself out...
Highly delusional.
MEDIC!
ScottyZ
And I thought I was highly delusional about making my monthly goal. Woo whoo -- I just came second in the step 5 tourney. Things are looking good once again. The heck with BB/100 hands -- lol. Ok, let me revel for a few minutes. BB/100 tomorrow.
Cheers
Magi
wow, that must be a big payday ... $2-3000 if i recall
did you buy-in directly or work your way up the ladder
Five big uns. :eek: Bought in for $11 on a lark to kill some time while I was taking a beating on the bad beat tables. Funny thing was that the first one was a limit tourney. I was able to switch to NL. And, then I asked if I could have the 1k entry fee for Step 5, in cash. Glad they didn't let me take the cash.
Cheers
Magi
Congrads on your money finish Magi, great job.
It's the two table tourney. Step 5 -- 9k, 5k, 3.6k, 2.4k. No other prizes. I was happy to get the 2.4k. Gravy after that.
Just jump in when you're not tired. They seem to get going around 8:00. Looks like only one per night.
GL to ya. Patience & aggression seem to work well on sample of 1, if that's worth anything.
Cheers
Magi
i managed to get to level 4 with perfection, winning my esclation every time.
so wanna stake me at the CPT
Thanks man.
Would you stake someone who finds a way to lose with aces against aces?
Those really hurt. It's like getting kicked in the nuts with a frozen boot. Apparently they really don't understand that saying in Vegas.
Cheers
Magi
I look straight ahead, and then hang my head in shame :frown:
Well, I have to agree with you both here.....I absolutely agree that you should strive to not make the original pre-flop mistake, who wouldn't...and hopefully we all get to that point someday Lou...I also believe that low-limit and in particular beginning players should stick to ABC poker and in most cases play premium hands and play tighter as you learn the game...that would include looking for a reason to fold rather then play, especially in a raised pot (and really aren't we talking about the mediocre or borderline hands here anyways?)...however, as is human nature, we make mistakes so I also think BBC's point is very worthwhile. When you find you've perhaps made a mistake pre-flop I think it is a tremendous error to simply fold your hand. I believe on every street you need re-evaluate your hand obviously taking in any new information you have gathered including but not limited to odds (pot odds, implied odds, reverse odds, suckout odds, super sized double chocolate swirl almond crunch fat free odds or whatever!).
You're both obviously successful and I value both your opinions but I think because of the rift between you that in trying to each make your own points you're not willing to concede that the other persons point has merit or is worthwhile. I think if you stepped back and thought about it you'd both say that in some cases both points are valid.
entertaining reading for sure!
It was far more entertaining when all those XXXX's were the actual explicitives that magi used.
Nice bump.
Anyone else keeping records of their experiences?
Hehe, you had to bring this up again huh. No problem. Lots of time has passed and after a year I've grown as a player and a person. The funny thing is the side argument on the post was more of an argument style which doesn't lead to a productive discussion. So, I choose never to enter into a discussion.
Poker is about learning and having an open mind. While my mind was/is closed to discussing this with BBC, I always look for problems with my thinking, including my assertion in this argument. As the year went by, I read many articles from pros who play much better than myself. And, I'm still comfortable with my position.Â
Cheers
Magi
I still went ahead with the experiment. I won my way into another World Series and had very good success during the year. Even so, I realize I still have a LONG way to go.
While folks got stuck on my goal of 5BB/100 hands and other crazy stuff, my post was more of a goal to force me to do everything I could to squeeze every single BB out of every single game.
After much thinking I realized there were two parts to my "what if".Â
1) The first part is doing the things which make you play your "A" game every time you step into a game. Never go on tilt and never play less than your skills allow. This alone leads to a huge leap in win rate.
2) The second part is about improving your game so you can go to the next level -- wherever that may be. Your skills at any one point are not as good as they can be. Doing things to improve your game will lead to a huge leap in your win rate. More importantly, it will also allow you to jump a level or two in limits.
Because the post got totally out of whack I really didn't feel like discussing my conclusions or my thought process along the way. Rather I've shared my findings with friends who play. I can honestly say I have so much to learn in both 1) playing my "A" game all the time and 2) improving my skills. I have a clearer picture now. I have a process. And, now I just need to improve every day.Â
Cheers
Magi
I love revisionist history, you are a pro Magi.
This I can help you with
I have been playing for a couple of years and been up and down. Over the last 6 months i am finally startign to put some consistency together and not redepositing every week. now that i can consistently win low limit 2/4 limit, 1/2 nl etc... i am really focusing on setting goals. i exceeded my 1st goal to build my online bankroll to >5k, but want to win an entry to the main event. There are many routes, STSNG, MTSNG, Steps. what route did you take and what do you reccomend?
Thx
Jim
First of all -- congratulations! That's a real accomplishment. Personally, I'd be looking to reward myself and go out and buy something really cool for a grand or so. Perhaps a digital camera, Ipod etc. Otherwise it becomes a real treadmill. You'll get a greater sense of accomplishment with something tangible.
When I first started playing NL tournaments I made a commitment to myself not to play the $200 sunday tournament unless I could win a $3 rebuy MTT sattelite. I had more than enough to buy a direct entry. However, I figured if I couldn't beat the $3 players, I had no hope in hell to beat the $200 players.Â
As it turned out, I won an entry into the $500 monthly tournament and I used the tournament dollars to take a few flyers. I won an entry to the $650 in a $3 rebuy and then won my first WSOP in the 650. It was a really, really tough tournament with John Dagastino and Layne Flack playing. However, I managed to win an entry. The $3 rebuys really gave me a solid understanding of how to win a satellite.Â
The next year the same sort of thing happened. I won a $200 entry and decided to use the bucks on a $160 double shootout. Notwithsanding what my daughter said, it was a really, really tough tournament to win. I told her I won in the morning. She says "what place did you come" I said first. She says "wow, it must have been a really easy tournament" (she was 6).
I don't think any one tournament form is easier than another. I like winning some bucks in the $3 rebuys and then playing those bucks to win an entry to the WSOP. The thing is I never, really really wanted to win the WSOP win. I just played my best and it worked out. When I tried for the Foxwoods I couldn't win an entry. The following year I just played on a lark, and I won an entry.Â
So, I would say just give it a shot and don't count on it. It'll work out at some point.
Cheers
Magi
Thx for the insite. I have done not bad. I won a $6 rebuy on PP for a 5.6k payday about 3 month ago and last week finshed 235 in the 500k guar on pp. I feel i am starting to really get the flow of the blinds, #'s and position, whereas in the past i would just play the cards and people a bit.
I am circulating on steps, but find it a real grind. Got an opinion on steps versus entering a regular Satellite?
Thx again
Jim. S (3rd at westside champ event to your 2nd - just to jog your memory)
Nice to hear that you're doing well online, it doesn't surprise me. Welcome to the forum!
stp
(Shannon)