The DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:
1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes
I've contributed great ideas to this forum, so don't go around discrediting me because you don't like my delivery and don't shortchange what I bring here.
I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above information. The point is, there is no sense in arguing with some people. You cannot convince people who are inherently unkind, to stop being unkind. Life's too short to waste on this stuff.
I think BBC Z does have good ideas to contribute to this forum. However, his posts are too black-and-white for me (i.e., "I'm right and you're wrong and you're stupid if you think otherwise"). This is the last time I'll comment on the subject. But I have a sneaking suscpicion that we won't be seeing an "Ask BBC Z" section added to this forum anytime soon.
I'm catching up on my reading of the forum and just got through this marathon post. For those that like to skip ahead to the end, let me summarize the previous 40 posts.....
Magithighs: Fold more pre-flop to make money in the long run.
BBC Z: But if you see the flop, you should bet if you have the odds.
Magithighs: But, but don't make the mistake pre-flop and you don't have to worry about that.
BBC Z: But if you did call pre-flop, then you should play pot-odds
Magithigs: But I'm saying don't call pre-flop
BBC Z: But what if you do?
Magithighs: No 'what if'. Just don't call.
BBC Z: OK..... But what if you call pre-flop.
Magithighs: No. You don't call pre-flop. Period. End of sentance.
BBC Z: Sure. But let's say that you call pre-flop....
Magithighs: But you don't....
BBC Z: But maybe you do....
Magithighs: You don't. Trust me.
BBC Z: ........ but if you do....
Magithigs: NO!!! No call pre-flop. That's the mistake!!!
BBC Z: The mistake's not calling when you bet pre-flop and have the odds!
Magithighs: For the love of God -- you *don't* call pre-flop. THAT'S MY POINT!!!!
BBC Z: OK. OK. Fine. I get. Now, let's say you were to call pre-flop
Magicthigs: You XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX pepperoni pizza XX XXXXX XXX.
I think maybe I'm going to hell for seeing the humour in all this.
I'm catching up on my reading of the forum and just got through this marathon post. For those that like to skip ahead to the end, let me summarize the previous 40 posts.....
Magithighs: Fold more pre-flop to make money in the long run.
BBC Z: But if you see the flop, you should bet if you have the odds.
Magithighs: But, but don't make the mistake pre-flop and you don't have to worry about that.
BBC Z: But if you did call pre-flop, then you should play pot-odds
Magithigs: But I'm saying don't call pre-flop
BBC Z: But what if you do?
Magithighs: No 'what if'. Just don't call.
BBC Z: OK..... But what if you call pre-flop.
Magithighs: No. You don't call pre-flop. Period. End of sentance.
BBC Z: Sure. But let's say that you call pre-flop....
Magithighs: But you don't....
BBC Z: But maybe you do....
Magithighs: You don't. Trust me.
BBC Z: ........ but if you do....
Magithigs: NO!!! No call pre-flop. That's the mistake!!!
BBC Z: The mistake's not calling when you bet pre-flop.
Magithighs: For the love of God -- you *don't* call pre-flop. THAT'S MY POINT!!!!
BBC Z: OK. OK. Fine. I get. Now, let's say you were to call pre-flop
Magicthigs: You XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX pepperoni pizza XX XXXXX XXX.
I think maybe I'm going to hell for seeing the humour in all this.
LOLOLOL
Zithal should get the crown for the best post of Jan, 2005! HAHAHA awesome.
I think maybe I'm going to hell for seeing the humour in all this.
Except you missed the point. The entire premise of the discussion started regarding post-flop decision making. So the fact that he wouldn't make that certain specific preflop error isn't relevant.
I stopped calling in difficult situations even with pot odds, like a flush draw with a paired board and four players in the pot. I couldn't believe how many BB i save by tightenig up.
"with pot odds" can clearly only mean a +EV situation, and not calling is a bad play period!... you can't save any BB here by not calling... so I have to agree with BBC here.
"Limit" hold'em, especially "low-limit" is all about playing the odds correctly. The majority of players are not paying attention enough to warrant going out of your way to impress a table image.
BTW, I must say your posts get me going, so I must start a pissing contest. What do your results speak? I have a 4.56BB/100 hand average on all limits over 40,000 hands (includes short and full games). By all accounts that's pretty darn good, and even includes some bad tilt sessions. On mid limits I have 3.62BB/100 hands average over the past 25,000. On low limits 3/6 and lower, I'm averaging 5.76 BB/100 hands over 10,000 hands.
I find it hard to side with those that start the pissing contest!! I don't have pokertracker, and I mainly play live, but I make money... at a hobby... and I have FUN... let us not forget that we play a game!!
P.S.... I have read RGP too long to be offended by any posts or attitudes that I have seen on this forum...
"with pot odds" can clearly only mean a +EV situation
It depends on what your definition of "with pot odds" is. (And what your definition of "is" is.)
Simply because your drawing odds to improve exceed the odds offered to you by the current pot, this does not automatically make calling a +EV play. (Although, it makes calling often +EV.)
Except you missed the point. The entire premise of the discussion started regarding post-flop decision making. So the fact that he wouldn't make that certain specific preflop error isn't relevant.
It depends on what your definition of "with pot odds" is. (And what your definition of "is" is.)
Simply because your drawing odds to improve exceed the odds offered to you by the current pot, this does not automatically make calling a +EV play. (Although, it makes calling often +EV.)
ScottyZ
Well, my better half banned me for a couple of days!!
For me, figuring out pot odds is an inaccurate science that only gets more accurate as the hand progresses. I don't know if my opponents have the Full House, when I'm drawing to the flush. So, I make some assumptions based on how the hand progressed and my opponents tendancies, but I am never absolutely certain of the "true" odds being offered.
My problem when I'm running bad is that I lose that little extra edge where I can accurately put multiple opponents on hands, in a tough situation. In many of these hands it costs bets to get the information to figure out my "true" pot odds, and whether or not I'm actually drawing dead. It's the cost of these extra bets which makes it -EV for me in these marginal situations. And because I have an aggressive game, it usually is not cheap to gain the information. For others who can figure out their true pot odds on the flop or turn, without dumping money in the pot, well it may in fact be a +EV situation.
I bought a chip set from www.edited-out-spam.com and I have been hosting home games ever since. I found it helps sometimes just to fold your hand and watch others at the table play. Look for tells and styles to develop in players and learn how to take advantage of them.
Against better judgement, here's my latest weekly update. I achieved my January goals, just barely. I'm still running very cold this week 1BB/100 hands. Not bad, but somethings amiss.
Sunday night I go onto Party Poker, and get AA in the cutoff. I'm beat by the turn, and fold to a very obvious straight. Worst part, there were two straights that beat me!! I didn't even have a chance. Then I get QQ, hit a set and lose to a flush. Finally, I get KK and lose when the ace hits the river. All this in 40 hands!!!
After that, I shut it down and cashed out of Party. I'll wait for the "we miss you" deposit bonus to show up before I redeposit. It usually takes about a week.
One of the things I said I would do, is split my time 50/50 between learning and earning. But, playing was way too much fun when I was winning -- especially when I was winning big. Now, I'm pretty much treading water. So, this week, I'm focusing on learning:
a) I'm reviewing my starting hand requriements -- check it against my record for the past two weeks
b) I'm replaying my sessions to spot leaks -- see how many BB tilty things cost me
c) Reading Ciaffone, Scharf & Jones
d) Working on Wild Divine
e) Zen
f) other stuff, I haven't thought about -- suggestions?
Now, I'm pretty much treading water. So, this week, I'm focusing on learning:
That's the responsible thing to do, i wish when i was running cold, i had the disipline to just shut it down and try to focus my poker efforts outside of the felt
I was looking into possibly getting this, although I was initially a little discouraged when the first webstore copy of it that I found was beside something called a "personalized gemstone healing wand". (I wonder if they would believe me if I told them that my personal healing gemstone was the 3 carat diamond...)
As BBC Z says, 1BB/100 hands may not be an indication that something is wrong. Weekly results, even if you play a lot of hours, are probably still primarily dominated by variance.
Obviously there's nothing wrong with reviewing your results and continuing your poker learning process, regardless of whether you have been winning or losing in the recent past.
I honestly am not trying to stir anything up but i do want to know.
BBC_Z and Magi will you both be playing in the Pokerforum tourney tomorrow?
Heh, heh. Yep, I'll be there just like the last five. Hey, where am I on the list? Where's.... -- I try not to play against any one player, so it will likely be uneventfull from a playing standpoint. I've beat many a good player, and I don't feel like I'm better than they are -- it's just a hand. But, the ribbing is always fun.
I was looking into possibly getting this, although I was initially a little discouraged when the first webstore copy of it that I found was beside something called a "personalized gemstone healing wand". (I wonder if they would believe me if I told them that my personal healing gemstone was the 3 carat diamond...)
ScottyZ
Ok, one must really take a giant leap when looking at this game, and even a bigger leap when you're playing it. After taking a huge ribbing from my better half, I played it for a few days. I myself, thought it was just too wacky. But I had dumped 200 bucks into this sucker. So, I suspended my disbelief.
It is an amazing tool for self meditation. It's incredibly accurate with the biofeedback tool. And, I found myself in many a hand, and my breathing would just regulate and I would relax and think. The results were instantaneous. I'm still playing around with it, and I will buy the add-on which lets you monitor your biofeedback in real-time. I'll be using it when I'm playing to see how I react and manage my emotions throughout the hand, and post hand.
Not sure I think it's worth the money, for everyone. But for me, I got exactly what I wanted out of it. So, it was money well spent.
Did you ever consider that nothing is wrong and that these are just the normal fluctuations you go through?
6BB/100 just sounds too high to be sustainable over the long term (assuming you aren't including bonus money in that stat)..
Yes, I believe 6BB/100 is not sustainable. As I'm playing, I'm seeing that I'm making obvious mistakes, but yet I still plough ahead with the action I'm about to take. The mistakes I'm making wouldn't make a huge difference, but they do add up. I want to see how many BB they add up to, and if I could have been at 2 or 3BB/100 instead of 1.
Also, after taking so many bad beats over the past two weeks, I really need a break. One can only take so much. I know myself, and I feel a huge tilt session coming if I don't take pre-emptive action. I've blown too much money on tilt.
So, I agree that it is likely a normal fluctuation. I want to see if I can better minimize the effects of a bad/cold streak and I really, really want to avoid my impending tilt.
...and I will buy the add-on which lets you monitor your biofeedback in real-time. I'll be using it when I'm playing to see how I react and manage my emotions throughout the hand, and post hand.
Sounds interesting. It's like a souped up poker on TV heart monitor.
I wonder is this could be a future method of posting poker hand histories... just a simple biofeedback graph.
"Here's where I get Aces, and here is those Aces getting cracked by 23o."
[Delivered in the Keanu Reeves/Neo style:] "Whoa."
Too bad. I was looking for something that would help me inflict meditation onto others.
Note: I should have added plenty of "I'm kidding" winks along the way. Here ya go:
You might consider this to be a "ribbing" as they say.
ScottyZ
Ok, ok hop on the bandwagon.
Self-meditation right up there with Dave S. feeling really good about how he called with A6s. I'm in good company!! I'll have to start using asterisks. Yep, I read the post as if there were winks right from the start. And, I'm dying to see the meter reading when my aces get cracked by 23!!
a) I'm reviewing my starting hand requriements -- check it against my record for the past two weeks
b) I'm replaying my sessions to spot leaks -- see how many BB tilty things cost me
c) Reading Ciaffone, Scharf & Jones
d) Working on Wild Divine
e) Zen
f) other stuff, I haven't thought about -- suggestions?
Cheers
Magi
Well, it's been a long time since my last update. Pretty simple to figure out! "MAGI SUCKS" for the past month and have been nowhere near my goal. Two losing sessions at Brantford and countless bad sessions online. The total for the month -- break even, but I still make money with my rake at Party -- almost 100BB. Man, I generate allot of rake!
I should have known. It all started when I get home from a nice winning session at Brantford.
* The starter dies in one of our cars.
* Then the muffler goes in the other car.
* Go for an emissions test, and it fails miserably.
* Then my laptop dies, two weeks out of warranty!!! After several calls, Dell agrees to make it right for me. I"m still waiting for my laptop though.
Rviewing my play was extremely helpful. The truth of the matter is that the bad beats really don't amount to much. When running bad, it really exposes my poor play. Had I not made those poor plays, I'd likely be running at 1-2BB/100 hands, at a minimum. What I've realized is that it's not the bad beats which make or break a session. It's really how you handle the bad beats. On a good note, I fixed the bad plays, but my luck kept getting worse. So, breaking even has helped.
My biggest problem with running bad is that I keep expecting the big session to save me. When I was running good, I was having 60-100BB days. But, it was the regular 10-20BB sessions which were really helping my results. When running bad, I think that a 10BB session is a failure. I really need to adjust my expectations.
The Wild Divine meditation really helps. It's amazing what a calming effect it has. Someone posted about having a session of bad beats. Well try 15-20 sessions in a row. Without some sort of calming effect, the only way to stay sane is to get away from the game. But I don't want to get away from the game, so meditation really helps.
Reading the books and magazine is also incredibly helpful. It really tells me that I'm on the right track and should make many changes to my play -- other than the subtle things I've found in my review.
So, I plug away. There's still 4 days left in Feb. Now if I can only average 20BB/100 hands for four days straight, I'll be back in business. Ha ha. If I get my laptop back, and stay in the postitive I'll be happy.
If you make a mistake by calling with a marginal hand preflop, can you make up for that mistake by playing according to pot odds post-flop?
Short answer: Yes.*
Long answer that is actually a question: If you answer 'yes' to the original question, should the pre-flop play really be called a mistake?
Very long answer that is again actually a question: What do you mean by "mistake"?
My general idea here is that it's going to be very difficult to pin down specific pre-flop plays as mistakes, since there is a lot of poker yet to come (and more decisions to be made) after the flop. There are a few pre-flop decisions that are relatively clear cut, but even seemingly common sense rules of thumb like "Always raise pre-flop with AA" or "Fold 72o UTG +1" can have their exceptions based on your expectations of the future play.
If the sub-text of your post was "Should a player who substantially outclasses his opponents play more hands than usual pre-flop?" then I'd say yes, absolutely.
ScottyZ
*And you might be able to make even better post-flop decisions using more information than pot-odds alone.
Comments
Sweeeet. You are the man buddy! When I tease you next year about your pokerforum tourney jinxes, I expect that to be 20,000...
..beautiful work guy.
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy, as indicated by at least five of:
1. a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, ie unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, ie takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy and is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes
I'll let people draw their own conclusions from the above information. The point is, there is no sense in arguing with some people. You cannot convince people who are inherently unkind, to stop being unkind. Life's too short to waste on this stuff.
I think BBC Z does have good ideas to contribute to this forum. However, his posts are too black-and-white for me (i.e., "I'm right and you're wrong and you're stupid if you think otherwise"). This is the last time I'll comment on the subject. But I have a sneaking suscpicion that we won't be seeing an "Ask BBC Z" section added to this forum anytime soon.
Cheers,
Phil
Magithighs: Fold more pre-flop to make money in the long run.
BBC Z: But if you see the flop, you should bet if you have the odds.
Magithighs: But, but don't make the mistake pre-flop and you don't have to worry about that.
BBC Z: But if you did call pre-flop, then you should play pot-odds
Magithigs: But I'm saying don't call pre-flop
BBC Z: But what if you do?
Magithighs: No 'what if'. Just don't call.
BBC Z: OK..... But what if you call pre-flop.
Magithighs: No. You don't call pre-flop. Period. End of sentance.
BBC Z: Sure. But let's say that you call pre-flop....
Magithighs: But you don't....
BBC Z: But maybe you do....
Magithighs: You don't. Trust me.
BBC Z: ........ but if you do....
Magithigs: NO!!! No call pre-flop. That's the mistake!!!
BBC Z: The mistake's not calling when you bet pre-flop and have the odds!
Magithighs: For the love of God -- you *don't* call pre-flop. THAT'S MY POINT!!!!
BBC Z: OK. OK. Fine. I get. Now, let's say you were to call pre-flop
Magicthigs: You XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX pepperoni pizza XX XXXXX XXX.
I think maybe I'm going to hell for seeing the humour in all this.
LOLOLOL
Zithal should get the crown for the best post of Jan, 2005! HAHAHA awesome.
Except you missed the point. The entire premise of the discussion started regarding post-flop decision making. So the fact that he wouldn't make that certain specific preflop error isn't relevant.
The original target.... "with pot odds" can clearly only mean a +EV situation, and not calling is a bad play period!... you can't save any BB here by not calling... so I have to agree with BBC here.
"Limit" hold'em, especially "low-limit" is all about playing the odds correctly. The majority of players are not paying attention enough to warrant going out of your way to impress a table image. Why is this a negative post... It poses a question that is never answered directly. I find it hard to side with those that start the pissing contest!! I don't have pokertracker, and I mainly play live, but I make money... at a hobby... and I have FUN... let us not forget that we play a game!!
P.S.... I have read RGP too long to be offended by any posts or attitudes that I have seen on this forum...
It depends on what your definition of "with pot odds" is. (And what your definition of "is" is.)
Simply because your drawing odds to improve exceed the odds offered to you by the current pot, this does not automatically make calling a +EV play. (Although, it makes calling often +EV.)
ScottyZ
Oh god here we go again
Well, my better half banned me for a couple of days!!
For me, figuring out pot odds is an inaccurate science that only gets more accurate as the hand progresses. I don't know if my opponents have the Full House, when I'm drawing to the flush. So, I make some assumptions based on how the hand progressed and my opponents tendancies, but I am never absolutely certain of the "true" odds being offered.
My problem when I'm running bad is that I lose that little extra edge where I can accurately put multiple opponents on hands, in a tough situation. In many of these hands it costs bets to get the information to figure out my "true" pot odds, and whether or not I'm actually drawing dead. It's the cost of these extra bets which makes it -EV for me in these marginal situations. And because I have an aggressive game, it usually is not cheap to gain the information. For others who can figure out their true pot odds on the flop or turn, without dumping money in the pot, well it may in fact be a +EV situation.
Cheers
Magi
P.S. My chip set looks great.. check em out at www.edited-out-spam.com
Sunday night I go onto Party Poker, and get AA in the cutoff. I'm beat by the turn, and fold to a very obvious straight. Worst part, there were two straights that beat me!! I didn't even have a chance. Then I get QQ, hit a set and lose to a flush. Finally, I get KK and lose when the ace hits the river. All this in 40 hands!!!
After that, I shut it down and cashed out of Party. I'll wait for the "we miss you" deposit bonus to show up before I redeposit. It usually takes about a week.
One of the things I said I would do, is split my time 50/50 between learning and earning. But, playing was way too much fun when I was winning -- especially when I was winning big. Now, I'm pretty much treading water. So, this week, I'm focusing on learning:
a) I'm reviewing my starting hand requriements -- check it against my record for the past two weeks
b) I'm replaying my sessions to spot leaks -- see how many BB tilty things cost me
c) Reading Ciaffone, Scharf & Jones
d) Working on Wild Divine
e) Zen
f) other stuff, I haven't thought about -- suggestions?
Cheers
Magi
Did you ever consider that nothing is wrong and that these are just the normal fluctuations you go through?
6BB/100 just sounds too high to be sustainable over the long term (assuming you aren't including bonus money in that stat)..
How are you liking this?
I was looking into possibly getting this, although I was initially a little discouraged when the first webstore copy of it that I found was beside something called a "personalized gemstone healing wand". (I wonder if they would believe me if I told them that my personal healing gemstone was the 3 carat diamond...)
As BBC Z says, 1BB/100 hands may not be an indication that something is wrong. Weekly results, even if you play a lot of hours, are probably still primarily dominated by variance.
Obviously there's nothing wrong with reviewing your results and continuing your poker learning process, regardless of whether you have been winning or losing in the recent past.
ScottyZ
BBC_Z and Magi will you both be playing in the Pokerforum tourney tomorrow?
Why did "Eye of the Tiger" just go off in my head?
ScottyZ
Heh, heh. Yep, I'll be there just like the last five. Hey, where am I on the list? Where's.... -- I try not to play against any one player, so it will likely be uneventfull from a playing standpoint. I've beat many a good player, and I don't feel like I'm better than they are -- it's just a hand. But, the ribbing is always fun.
Cheers
Magi
Ok, one must really take a giant leap when looking at this game, and even a bigger leap when you're playing it. After taking a huge ribbing from my better half, I played it for a few days. I myself, thought it was just too wacky. But I had dumped 200 bucks into this sucker. So, I suspended my disbelief.
It is an amazing tool for self meditation. It's incredibly accurate with the biofeedback tool. And, I found myself in many a hand, and my breathing would just regulate and I would relax and think. The results were instantaneous. I'm still playing around with it, and I will buy the add-on which lets you monitor your biofeedback in real-time. I'll be using it when I'm playing to see how I react and manage my emotions throughout the hand, and post hand.
Not sure I think it's worth the money, for everyone. But for me, I got exactly what I wanted out of it. So, it was money well spent.
Cheers
Magi
Yes, I believe 6BB/100 is not sustainable. As I'm playing, I'm seeing that I'm making obvious mistakes, but yet I still plough ahead with the action I'm about to take. The mistakes I'm making wouldn't make a huge difference, but they do add up. I want to see how many BB they add up to, and if I could have been at 2 or 3BB/100 instead of 1.
Also, after taking so many bad beats over the past two weeks, I really need a break. One can only take so much. I know myself, and I feel a huge tilt session coming if I don't take pre-emptive action. I've blown too much money on tilt.
So, I agree that it is likely a normal fluctuation. I want to see if I can better minimize the effects of a bad/cold streak and I really, really want to avoid my impending tilt.
Cheers
Magi
"That's what she said."
Ummm...
Too bad. I was looking for something that would help me inflict meditation onto others.
Note: I should have added plenty of "I'm kidding" winks along the way. Here ya go:
You might consider this to be a "ribbing" as they say.
ScottyZ
Sounds interesting. It's like a souped up poker on TV heart monitor.
I wonder is this could be a future method of posting poker hand histories... just a simple biofeedback graph.
"Here's where I get Aces, and here is those Aces getting cracked by 23o."
[Delivered in the Keanu Reeves/Neo style:] "Whoa."
ScottyZ
Ok, ok hop on the bandwagon.
Self-meditation right up there with Dave S. feeling really good about how he called with A6s. I'm in good company!! I'll have to start using asterisks. Yep, I read the post as if there were winks right from the start. And, I'm dying to see the meter reading when my aces get cracked by 23!!
Cheers
Magi
Hehe*
ScottyZ
*Good idea.
Well, it's been a long time since my last update. Pretty simple to figure out! "MAGI SUCKS" for the past month and have been nowhere near my goal. Two losing sessions at Brantford and countless bad sessions online. The total for the month -- break even, but I still make money with my rake at Party -- almost 100BB. Man, I generate allot of rake!
I should have known. It all started when I get home from a nice winning session at Brantford.
* The starter dies in one of our cars.
* Then the muffler goes in the other car.
* Go for an emissions test, and it fails miserably.
* Then my laptop dies, two weeks out of warranty!!! After several calls, Dell agrees to make it right for me. I"m still waiting for my laptop though.
Rviewing my play was extremely helpful. The truth of the matter is that the bad beats really don't amount to much. When running bad, it really exposes my poor play. Had I not made those poor plays, I'd likely be running at 1-2BB/100 hands, at a minimum. What I've realized is that it's not the bad beats which make or break a session. It's really how you handle the bad beats. On a good note, I fixed the bad plays, but my luck kept getting worse. So, breaking even has helped.
My biggest problem with running bad is that I keep expecting the big session to save me. When I was running good, I was having 60-100BB days. But, it was the regular 10-20BB sessions which were really helping my results. When running bad, I think that a 10BB session is a failure. I really need to adjust my expectations.
The Wild Divine meditation really helps. It's amazing what a calming effect it has. Someone posted about having a session of bad beats. Well try 15-20 sessions in a row. Without some sort of calming effect, the only way to stay sane is to get away from the game. But I don't want to get away from the game, so meditation really helps.
Reading the books and magazine is also incredibly helpful. It really tells me that I'm on the right track and should make many changes to my play -- other than the subtle things I've found in my review.
So, I plug away. There's still 4 days left in Feb. Now if I can only average 20BB/100 hands for four days straight, I'll be back in business. Ha ha. If I get my laptop back, and stay in the postitive I'll be happy.
Cheres
Magi
Short answer: Yes.*
Long answer that is actually a question: If you answer 'yes' to the original question, should the pre-flop play really be called a mistake?
Very long answer that is again actually a question: What do you mean by "mistake"?
My general idea here is that it's going to be very difficult to pin down specific pre-flop plays as mistakes, since there is a lot of poker yet to come (and more decisions to be made) after the flop. There are a few pre-flop decisions that are relatively clear cut, but even seemingly common sense rules of thumb like "Always raise pre-flop with AA" or "Fold 72o UTG +1" can have their exceptions based on your expectations of the future play.
If the sub-text of your post was "Should a player who substantially outclasses his opponents play more hands than usual pre-flop?" then I'd say yes, absolutely.
ScottyZ
*And you might be able to make even better post-flop decisions using more information than pot-odds alone.