No, that's not my interpretation of magithighs' original statement.
I took the meaning that the majority of a low limit player's profits come from folding at decision points where both calling and raising are both -EV plays, which I believe to be the case.
Conversely (and possibly the opposite statement clarifies the point a bit better), I believe the majority of an unprofitable low limit player's losses come from not folding when the alternative choice that he/she makes has -EV.
No, that's not my interpretation of magithigh's original statement.
I took the meaning that the majority of a low limit player's profits come from folding at decision points where both calling and raising are both -EV plays, which I believe to be the case.
well see, it's easy to both justify the statement and condem it when you pick out the variables.
As a broad statement that applies to all of poker, I hate it.
And now you twist your words. You said that folding is the single most profitable play a low limit player can make. I disagreed and asked how many pots you won by folding? If folding is so profitable, theres no need to play a hand ever..
I stand by it. Hmmm....let me think. Image is one thing you get when you're folding alot. Do you think image helps win pots? What about selective aggression? Once again, you've folded alot, and now decide to check-raise on a nut flush draw at the turn with four opponents. I can't tell you how many pots that has won me without making my hand. Chugs had a post about the turn c/r bluff. Do you think that would work if he was in allot of hands? Folding is the most profitable thing one can do. You twisted my words and are taking that to the extreme and saying that if that's true, then not playing is most profitable. How's that for twisting? I think you need to look within more often.
You are compounding your mistakes. Yes, there was a mistake preflop but you are SEVERELY compounding the error by folding once you've already arrived on the flop. I really do think you need to read Small Stakes Holdem and some Ed Miller posts from 2+2. Preflop errors are rarely ever a players biggest leak. The biggest leaks come from flop play and folding hands where you have pot odds to draw.
Do the right thing. Saying that because you can recover from a mistake, it's ok to make the mistake is an error, in my opinion. I think I'll stick with not making the first mistake.
Reread this paragraph. It makes no sense. If you have pot odds in a situation, its because you factored all that reasoning in a number. That number is called the number of outs you have percieved to win. Then the outs > the odds the pot is giving you, that is a profitable situation.
It does make sense if you figure out what I'm trying to say. I admit, I may not communicate my thoughts as clearly as I should. But, if you took some time to figure out what I'm trying to say, instead of how pot odds is the only thing to consider, you might figure out what I'm saying.
The mathemeticians at the University of Alberta figured out that pot odds and impied odds, does not make a winning player. Their first bot was based purely on pot odds and hand values. It was very beatable. They refined their bot to factor in opponents weaknesses, their likely holding based on their actions, their position and they have now created an amazing bot that has won gold medals in AI. You might want to try an consider another opinion.
I'm trying to make you THINK. You can give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, if you teach a man to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life. So yes, my repsonses are short and to the point, but it's by design.
I find too many people make statements in posts and they get offended when they have to defend them. It's through debate that we learn that the correct actions are. If you want a yes man response, please, don't read anything I post because I say things you dont want to hear.
I'm not offended, nor am i surprised. I don't think others are offended. They are suggesting your approach leaves something to be desired. I really don't see how you're trying to make me think, when you have one line of thinking, namely pot odds, or implied odds, whichever seems to suit your argument at the time.
getting back on the topic: Magi posts stating that he folds hands even though he has pot odds. I tell him he's wrong. He comes back with 'The most profitable play for a low limit player is to fold', I tell him he's wrong. I get accused of being too negative.
Give me a BREAK!
You haven't considered my counter-argument. You say I'm wrong about folding when you have pot odds. I say it's correct in many instances because of reverse-implied odds -- btw, thats when you make your hand and some else makes a better hand (or you were drawing dead) and you pay off like an ATM on crack. I offer support for my argument from credible sources, like Lee Jones, All_Aces, and my experience. You suggest my thoughts are the stupidest thing youv'e ever heard. Perhaps you can explain how you think you're being constructive, or helping me THINK? I'm missing something. Again, this is really helping me manage my emotions, so you are helping and I thank you for that.
Wow...BBC Z were you a slave? A beaten red headed step child? You show so much rage! I really think all anyone hear asks is that you don't call them stupid or reply with completely negative sarcasms.
Personally, I don't mind being told I was wrong or I messed up. I know personally that Magithighs encourages his flaws being pointed out. But if any of us need to be flamed we can hop onto one of the many bigger forums and be roasted there. I use this forum to try and find solid suggestions with a Canadian feel. Not George Bush telling me he wants to bomb my country because he doesn't agree with the way I play my draws with pot odds!
Anyway, I generally think you bring some good points to this forum. I just wish I didn't need to read through you’re a$$hole remarks to get to them.
No, that's not my interpretation of magithighs' original statement.
I took the meaning that the majority of a low limit player's profits come from folding at decision points where both calling and raising are both -EV plays, which I believe to be the case.
Conversely (and possibly the opposite statement clarifies the point a bit better), I believe the majority of an unprofitable low limit player's losses come from not folding when the alternative choice that he/she makes has -EV.
ScottyZ
For those reading this thread for some nuggets, here's another HUGE piece of advice. It's more than me trying to support someone that is supporting my original statement. This is gold. It is seemingly contractictory but it's not. Fold properly & look to make others fold when the shouldn't.
Do the right thing. Saying that because you can recover from a mistake, it's ok to make the mistake is an error, in my opinion. I think I'll stick with not making the first mistake.
Is there anyone else out there that sees the error of this statement? I want to say it's bad, but I dont think I can come up with a touchy feely vanilla politically correct way to express myself that won't offend everyone.
What does 'Do the right thing.' mean? You make an error preflop so you should fold the flop regardless?
Here an idea: Think about HOW MUCH you lose on each mistake. A loose preflop call can cost you 1 bet maximum. Folding a big draw in a pot can cost you large %'s of the pot.
. Do you think image helps win pots?
I could ask you the same question. I think the problem is coming from you talking about midstakes live games and I'm talking about low limit online games. All my experience is with LL Online play, so thats the only perspective I have.
They refined their bot to factor in opponents weaknesses, their likely holding based on their actions, their position and they have now created an amazing bot that has won gold medals in AI.
Guess what? I'm sure they left all those pot odds calculations in the AI.
I really don't see how you're trying to make me think, when you have one line of thinking, namely pot odds, or implied odds, whichever seems to suit your argument at the time.
Here's your fish: You don't take pot odds seriously enough when you decide to stay in a hand and so you land up making unprofitable folds. Your entire attitude towards odds is that it's something a know nothing hack uses to justify poor decisions. You need to understand that when you have a pot equity edge, raises/calls are in order.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you are able to win 6BB/100 at low limit online poker with a leak like this. because it's a situation that would occur constantly, thus giving large opportunities to make the mistake.
ou haven't considered my counter-argument. You say I'm wrong about folding when you have pot odds. I say it's correct in many instances because of reverse-implied odds -- btw, thats when you make your hand and some else makes a better hand (or you were drawing dead) and you pay off like an ATM on crack.
I answered your question. You discount the outs that can lead to situations like that. Take my AKo hand where I thought I should have raised the flop. I sure didn't count all the A's and K's for full value after the preflop action. So my point: When you say you have pot odds to continue, it's because you evaluated your hand against your opponents and discounted the approrpiate outs. When the total outs are evaluated against the pot and you have odds, thats PROFIT.
Wow...BBC Z were you a slave? A beaten red headed step child? You show so much rage!
..
I just wish I didn't need to read through you’re a$$hole remarks to get to them.
I'd like to remind the forum admins that I was banned for 1 week for comments that were much less flame than this. Are we going to see an equal application of the rules? <of course not!>
Its 'Game, Set, Match'. If you want a witty one liner put down, could you please get it right?
Not that you care because you obviously don't but this is the "a$$hole" remarks I was referring to earlier.
You have helped create an excellent poker discussion here. Unfortunately at the same time you have also managed to create too much discussion about how much of a prick you come off as on this forum. This a poker forum where I and many others come to read about poker and not some dick making snide remarks or degrading other people. This isn't the first time this has raised it head here but the only reason I choose this forum over any other is simply due the quality vs bullsh!t ratio. Since this is a small forum it would not take many posts/posters to skew that ratio the wrong way. I think your posts only hinder quality posts from others and may even stop potential posters from adding ideas since they don't want to be berated by an a$$hole getting his kicks off belittling others.
Anyway, I say will this again you have a strong mind and many good ideas so please keep posting but be a little more Canadian about it and "God keep our land glorious and free!" of your a$$hole remarks.
Hot thread...Missed the last post about banning me...If I should be banned for stating the obvious then that is fine. I did berate you and I appolagise to everyone for that. I just don't understand your need to tell people how stupid they are. I like that you disagree. I don't like that your a dick about it.
Is there anyone else out there that sees the error of this statement? I want to say it's bad, but I dont think I can come up with a touchy feely vanilla politically correct way to express myself that won't offend everyone.
What does 'Do the right thing.' mean? You make an error preflop so you should fold the flop regardless?
Here an idea: Think about HOW MUCH you lose on each mistake. A loose preflop call can cost you 1 bet maximum. Folding a big draw in a pot can cost you large %'s of the pot.
Here's a thoguht you XXXX XXX. FOLD PRE-FLOP. The XXXX mistake is make pre-flop. CAN I Say that again. It's PRE-FLOP. Are you XXXXX XXX, or am i talking to a dead XXXX stump. Not making the original mistake is the BEST course of action. But, youXXXXXXX may not realize that you should not make the first mistake.
I could ask you the same question. I think the problem is coming from you talking about midstakes live games and I'm talking about low limit online games. All my experience is with LL Online play, so thats the only perspective I have.
You XXXX XXX, I'm talking about low limit online games where I have over 100,000 hands of experience, and averaged 8BB/100 hands. How bout that XXXX perspective. XXXX. Your only saving grace is that there are worse opponents that you. Don't forget that. Your 2BB/100 hands is only made becuase there are in fact players that are dumber than XXXX stumps.
Guess what? I'm sure they left all those pot odds calculations in the AI.
It's one part of the equation. If you could take XXXXX, you would see that I'm saying it's one part of the equation. But with your XXXX it's kind of hard to hear isn't it. But, i guess it's all warm and moushy in your world.
Here's your fish: You don't take pot odds seriously enough when you decide to stay in a hand and so you land up making unprofitable folds. Your entire attitude towards odds is that it's something a know nothing hack uses to justify poor decisions. You need to understand that when you have a pot equity edge, raises/calls are in order.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you are able to win 6BB/100 at low limit online poker with a leak like this. because it's a situation that would occur constantly, thus giving large opportunities to make the mistake.
I examine every inch of my play. I know I have leaks. This isn't one of them. Go buy yourself a copy of WINHOLDEM so the computer can make the exact calculations for you tha your pea brain is incabable of making. Poker is much more than pot odds.
I answered your question. You discount the outs that can lead to situations like that. Take my AKo hand where I thought I should have raised the flop. I sure didn't count all the A's and K's for full value after the preflop action. So my point: When you say you have pot odds to continue, it's because you evaluated your hand against your opponents and discounted the approrpiate outs. When the total outs are evaluated against the pot and you have odds, thats PROFIT.
Pot odds is pot odds. Reverse-implied odds is a different concept your XXXX can't comprehend.
I'd like to remind the forum admins that I was banned for 1 week for comments that were much less flame than this. Are we going to see an equal application of the rules? <of course not!>
I aggree, I now should be banned for a week. Amazingly, I couldn't contain my emotions.
I aggree, I now should be banned for a week. Amazingly, I couldn't contain my emotions.
I appolgize in advance.
Too bad, I wasn't referring to you in the least when I talked about banning.
FOLD PRE-FLOP.
Agreed. But your posts made it look like you would fold any flop if you happened to find yourself on the flop.
I'm talking about low limit online games where I have over 100,000 hands of experience, and averaged 8BB/100 hands.
Then I am shocked that you can find opponent who pay attention to the screen enough to notice your playing habits (whether it be folding a lot or not raising etc).
If you could take your head our of your ass, you would see that I'm saying it's one part of the equation.
But your original post only makes reference to folding when you have odds..... Of course your odds are one part of your equation, but at LL HE they can be a large part of your final decision.
Poker is much more than pot odds.
I dont believe that low limit holdem really is that much more than pot odds.
Reverse-implied odds
Is the concept that should your opponent have a better hand than you think, he will be able to get an extra bet or two out of you even when you make your draw. But you would have discounted your total outs to account for these situations.
Nope, I just like 50 post users coming out of the shadows to tell me I suck.
I'm sorry, I was unaware that the number of posts a user had was directly correlated with the amount of respect they should be shown. And I never told you that you sucked. I just said you're not very nice.
Phil
I'd like to point out to everyone that if you look in the control panel, there is a buddy/ignore list. Put the a$$hole's name in the ignore list and POOF no more wasting my time reading those "I'm so much smarter than you" posts.
Just knowing he's stewing about me not reading his witty comeback leaves me
in front of the mirror with a sly wink, big grin and two thumbs up
I told myself I would stay out of this but I can't. You know guys I don't see what is gained by all of this flaming. Magi and BBC_Z actually had a very good debate going there and if you strip out all the nonsense and hurt feelings there is a lot of meat to chew on , from both sides.
Maybe its the type of people that I hang out with but I am not offended by BBC_Z's tone at all. My best friends are the ones that can tell me I am full of shit. Straight up, no nonsense blunt honesty. Give me that any day of the week.
I'm not taking sides because I have tremendous respect for Magi's approach to the game. As I mentioned earlier in this "What if" thread its opened my eyes to things around this game and my place in it.
I think comparing BBC_Z's remarks to that of other larger forums is unfair. Those places rarely have anything useful to add and I can say his posts always make me think. Who cares if its rough around the edges. We're poker players not a bunch of wussies.
My best friends are the ones that can tell me I am full of shit.
"Friends" are one thing. You would expect this from a friend. If a complete stranger walked up to you on the street and called you an idiot, you'd likely punch him in the mouth. I hope you can see the difference. So why should it be tolerated in this friendly little forum?
I have absolutely no respect for an anonymous s.h. who likes to put down those eager to learn as well as those with tremendous experience who are willing to share. That kind of behaviour will destroy this site.
I get great value from this forum. It saddens me to see one jackass can have a negative impact. I, for one, will no longer read his posts. I get much more value from truly experienced players like Dave, Scotty, AA and Magi. And respect. It is a mutual thing.
I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this. That would only make him happy.
Enjoy the bonus whoring while I focus on learning how to play poker. Two thumbs up, buddy. (I still laugh at that ) Way up!
IMHO, some debates are best left to the battleground of the felt
<shameless pokerforum.ca tourney plug/>
I so agree ... i've realized that people should settle they're poker battles on the poker field.
While i'm over it, i will state the fact that months ago at the time of a similar battle of posts that occured with BBC_z i offered him the oppurtunity to play a heads up SNG, limit or no limit. i'm not a man of great means or skill but was still more than happy to match wits, but i think magi vs. BBC would be much more interesting to watch.
SirBry any chance you can set up an exclusive heads up tourney on Stars for magi and BBC_z to battle this out where it really counts, or maybe they can co-ordinate and everyone can watch them play some straight heads-up poker
Chugs, I'd prefer not to engage in or encourage one-on-one matchups within the context of our forum, although I will defer to ScottyZ and Sloth on this.
I believe we already have a respectable, well organized series of tournaments in our PokerForum.ca games through which we can evaluate strategies, compete against peers, or just enjoy watching all_aces go broke (sorry aces ). If an individual believes that his or her strategies would best the field of our members, I encourage them to play, and I wish them the best of luck.
Our next PokerForum.ca tourney is scheduled for Tuesday Feb 1st.
Okay maybe I'll my point got lost in some harsh words. I already apologized for being an ass and degrading someone I don't even know. My point isn't that we shouldn't have a difference of opinion or even not be able to tell someone how wrong they are. That is what this forum is for. I just hate seeing posters be called idiots or stupid because someone does not agree with them.
As I have said many times I think BBC brings a very strong dimension to this forum and helps create a lot of discussion. I just wish he wouldn't tell some how stupid they are because he doesn't agree with them.
Okay maybe I'll my point got lost in some harsh words. I already apologized for being an ass and degrading someone I don't even know. My point isn't that we shouldn't have a difference of opinion or even not be able to tell someone how wrong they are. That is what this forum is for. I just hate seeing posters be called idiots or stupid because someone does not agree with them.
As I have said many times I think BBC brings a very strong dimension to this forum and helps create a lot of discussion. I just wish he wouldn't tell some how stupid they are because he doesn't agree with them.
I'm not sure, but without over simplifing are you trying to say
"It's not just what you say, it's how you say it"
bbc quite often lacks the social skill to be sutle and simply make his point and let the content of his post show his superior intellect rather than putting the rest of us down.
for example bbc is more likely to respond by indicating that i typed 'subtle' incorrectly above and for that reason i'm without a doubt a sub-standard human especially in comparision to him, rather than politely agreeing or disagreeing with what i've typed.
As I look back at this thread, I found two places where I was overly dramatic.
The first was the stupidest thing ever comment.. (which I still stand by)
The second was the gimmie a break at the end of my post. Neither of wich warrents the barrage of attacks I suffered in this thread. Everyone loves to harp on the negative and dismiss the positive. I get to hear crap like 'All you ever post is negativity'. Guess what? Thats bullshit and you know it. I'm doing my best to try and help people when I see their logic is flawed. I've contributed great ideas to this forum, so don't go around discrediting me because you don't like my delivery and don't shortchange what I bring here.
Now, All the bottom feeders that want to chime in with their two cents about my character:
Please go back and read the entire posts. Read every single sentence. Don't just read the parts that confirm what you want to belive. Guess what? I was perfectly civilized the entire time. Even with peoples cheap shots, calling me names, magi swearing, I only stuck to the issues in the thread.
But what happens? Once the real dicussion is over, I get to read 10-15 posts about my being as asshole and I get to read people talk crap about me with no value to their comments whatsoever. Do I retaliate? Ever? No. Yet people feel they are free to take shot at me to pump up their egos that they are somehow better than me because they are all politically correct and nicey nicey.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm a contraversial guy. If I see something that you say that I disagree with, I'll voice my opinion. Thats the cost of the transaction. If you don't like it, please be like pkerface# and put me on whatever ignore list there is.
But you know what? If you actually take the time to read what I write, you'll probably find that your game will improve and you'll actually start thinking about poker rather than reciting a starting hand guide from Lee Jones. And its when you think about the game, when you are CHALLENGED about what you think about the game, that you'll really improve.
So in summary, if you feel the need to swear at me, to tell me I'm short and curt or to insult me, PM it to me. I'm just getting sick of dealing with it in the public forum and theres no purpose in cluttering up good discussions of poker with this crap.
And to Magi.. I went back and I reread the thread. I think we diverged on the KJo because you were referring to never making the mistake in the first place, while I was referring to what you would assuming you made the mistake. We're both right.
Comments
No, that's not my interpretation of magithighs' original statement.
I took the meaning that the majority of a low limit player's profits come from folding at decision points where both calling and raising are both -EV plays, which I believe to be the case.
Conversely (and possibly the opposite statement clarifies the point a bit better), I believe the majority of an unprofitable low limit player's losses come from not folding when the alternative choice that he/she makes has -EV.
ScottyZ
well see, it's easy to both justify the statement and condem it when you pick out the variables.
As a broad statement that applies to all of poker, I hate it.
I stand by it. Hmmm....let me think. Image is one thing you get when you're folding alot. Do you think image helps win pots? What about selective aggression? Once again, you've folded alot, and now decide to check-raise on a nut flush draw at the turn with four opponents. I can't tell you how many pots that has won me without making my hand. Chugs had a post about the turn c/r bluff. Do you think that would work if he was in allot of hands? Folding is the most profitable thing one can do. You twisted my words and are taking that to the extreme and saying that if that's true, then not playing is most profitable. How's that for twisting? I think you need to look within more often.
Do the right thing. Saying that because you can recover from a mistake, it's ok to make the mistake is an error, in my opinion. I think I'll stick with not making the first mistake.
It does make sense if you figure out what I'm trying to say. I admit, I may not communicate my thoughts as clearly as I should. But, if you took some time to figure out what I'm trying to say, instead of how pot odds is the only thing to consider, you might figure out what I'm saying.
The mathemeticians at the University of Alberta figured out that pot odds and impied odds, does not make a winning player. Their first bot was based purely on pot odds and hand values. It was very beatable. They refined their bot to factor in opponents weaknesses, their likely holding based on their actions, their position and they have now created an amazing bot that has won gold medals in AI. You might want to try an consider another opinion.
I'm not offended, nor am i surprised. I don't think others are offended. They are suggesting your approach leaves something to be desired. I really don't see how you're trying to make me think, when you have one line of thinking, namely pot odds, or implied odds, whichever seems to suit your argument at the time.
You haven't considered my counter-argument. You say I'm wrong about folding when you have pot odds. I say it's correct in many instances because of reverse-implied odds -- btw, thats when you make your hand and some else makes a better hand (or you were drawing dead) and you pay off like an ATM on crack. I offer support for my argument from credible sources, like Lee Jones, All_Aces, and my experience. You suggest my thoughts are the stupidest thing youv'e ever heard. Perhaps you can explain how you think you're being constructive, or helping me THINK? I'm missing something. Again, this is really helping me manage my emotions, so you are helping and I thank you for that.
Cheers
Magi
Personally, I don't mind being told I was wrong or I messed up. I know personally that Magithighs encourages his flaws being pointed out. But if any of us need to be flamed we can hop onto one of the many bigger forums and be roasted there. I use this forum to try and find solid suggestions with a Canadian feel. Not George Bush telling me he wants to bomb my country because he doesn't agree with the way I play my draws with pot odds!
Anyway, I generally think you bring some good points to this forum. I just wish I didn't need to read through you’re a$$hole remarks to get to them.
Point, set, and match.
BBC_Z you remind me of a good friend of mine who is now in his third year at law school in Windsor. Excellent to debate with, ever thought about it?
stp
Its 'Game, Set, Match'. If you want a witty one liner put down, could you please get it right?
For those reading this thread for some nuggets, here's another HUGE piece of advice. It's more than me trying to support someone that is supporting my original statement. This is gold. It is seemingly contractictory but it's not. Fold properly & look to make others fold when the shouldn't.
Wow, you're just feeding this fire. Or is it, "fanning" the fire? I don't know. You seem to be the expert on everything, why don't you tell us BBC Z?
Is there anyone else out there that sees the error of this statement? I want to say it's bad, but I dont think I can come up with a touchy feely vanilla politically correct way to express myself that won't offend everyone.
What does 'Do the right thing.' mean? You make an error preflop so you should fold the flop regardless?
Here an idea: Think about HOW MUCH you lose on each mistake. A loose preflop call can cost you 1 bet maximum. Folding a big draw in a pot can cost you large %'s of the pot.
I could ask you the same question. I think the problem is coming from you talking about midstakes live games and I'm talking about low limit online games. All my experience is with LL Online play, so thats the only perspective I have.
Guess what? I'm sure they left all those pot odds calculations in the AI.
Here's your fish: You don't take pot odds seriously enough when you decide to stay in a hand and so you land up making unprofitable folds. Your entire attitude towards odds is that it's something a know nothing hack uses to justify poor decisions. You need to understand that when you have a pot equity edge, raises/calls are in order.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you are able to win 6BB/100 at low limit online poker with a leak like this. because it's a situation that would occur constantly, thus giving large opportunities to make the mistake.
I answered your question. You discount the outs that can lead to situations like that. Take my AKo hand where I thought I should have raised the flop. I sure didn't count all the A's and K's for full value after the preflop action. So my point: When you say you have pot odds to continue, it's because you evaluated your hand against your opponents and discounted the approrpiate outs. When the total outs are evaluated against the pot and you have odds, thats PROFIT.
I'd like to remind the forum admins that I was banned for 1 week for comments that were much less flame than this. Are we going to see an equal application of the rules? <of course not!>
Nope, I just like 50 post users coming out of the shadows to tell me I suck.
Not that you care because you obviously don't but this is the "a$$hole" remarks I was referring to earlier.
You have helped create an excellent poker discussion here. Unfortunately at the same time you have also managed to create too much discussion about how much of a prick you come off as on this forum. This a poker forum where I and many others come to read about poker and not some dick making snide remarks or degrading other people. This isn't the first time this has raised it head here but the only reason I choose this forum over any other is simply due the quality vs bullsh!t ratio. Since this is a small forum it would not take many posts/posters to skew that ratio the wrong way. I think your posts only hinder quality posts from others and may even stop potential posters from adding ideas since they don't want to be berated by an a$$hole getting his kicks off belittling others.
Anyway, I say will this again you have a strong mind and many good ideas so please keep posting but be a little more Canadian about it and "God keep our land glorious and free!" of your a$$hole remarks.
Here's a thoguht you XXXX XXX. FOLD PRE-FLOP. The XXXX mistake is make pre-flop. CAN I Say that again. It's PRE-FLOP. Are you XXXXX XXX, or am i talking to a dead XXXX stump. Not making the original mistake is the BEST course of action. But, youXXXXXXX may not realize that you should not make the first mistake.
You XXXX XXX, I'm talking about low limit online games where I have over 100,000 hands of experience, and averaged 8BB/100 hands. How bout that XXXX perspective. XXXX. Your only saving grace is that there are worse opponents that you. Don't forget that. Your 2BB/100 hands is only made becuase there are in fact players that are dumber than XXXX stumps.
It's one part of the equation. If you could take XXXXX, you would see that I'm saying it's one part of the equation. But with your XXXX it's kind of hard to hear isn't it. But, i guess it's all warm and moushy in your world.
I examine every inch of my play. I know I have leaks. This isn't one of them. Go buy yourself a copy of WINHOLDEM so the computer can make the exact calculations for you tha your pea brain is incabable of making. Poker is much more than pot odds.
Pot odds is pot odds. Reverse-implied odds is a different concept your XXXX can't comprehend.
I aggree, I now should be banned for a week. Amazingly, I couldn't contain my emotions.
I appolgize in advance.
Too bad, I wasn't referring to you in the least when I talked about banning.
Agreed. But your posts made it look like you would fold any flop if you happened to find yourself on the flop.
Then I am shocked that you can find opponent who pay attention to the screen enough to notice your playing habits (whether it be folding a lot or not raising etc).
But your original post only makes reference to folding when you have odds..... Of course your odds are one part of your equation, but at LL HE they can be a large part of your final decision.
I dont believe that low limit holdem really is that much more than pot odds.
Is the concept that should your opponent have a better hand than you think, he will be able to get an extra bet or two out of you even when you make your draw. But you would have discounted your total outs to account for these situations.
I'm sorry, I was unaware that the number of posts a user had was directly correlated with the amount of respect they should be shown. And I never told you that you sucked. I just said you're not very nice.
Phil
The crazy bitches.
ScottyZ
LOL
Sigh, it's too bad this got into a slugfest, there are some really good ideas flying in between the flames!
Just knowing he's stewing about me not reading his witty comeback leaves me
Maybe its the type of people that I hang out with but I am not offended by BBC_Z's tone at all. My best friends are the ones that can tell me I am full of shit. Straight up, no nonsense blunt honesty. Give me that any day of the week.
I'm not taking sides because I have tremendous respect for Magi's approach to the game. As I mentioned earlier in this "What if" thread its opened my eyes to things around this game and my place in it.
I think comparing BBC_Z's remarks to that of other larger forums is unfair. Those places rarely have anything useful to add and I can say his posts always make me think. Who cares if its rough around the edges. We're poker players not a bunch of wussies.
Peace
o_s_f
I have absolutely no respect for an anonymous s.h. who likes to put down those eager to learn as well as those with tremendous experience who are willing to share. That kind of behaviour will destroy this site.
I get great value from this forum. It saddens me to see one jackass can have a negative impact. I, for one, will no longer read his posts. I get much more value from truly experienced players like Dave, Scotty, AA and Magi. And respect. It is a mutual thing.
I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this. That would only make him happy.
Enjoy the bonus whoring while I focus on learning how to play poker. Two thumbs up, buddy. (I still laugh at that
Cheers.
<shameless pokerforum.ca tourney plug/>
I so agree ... i've realized that people should settle they're poker battles on the poker field.
While i'm over it, i will state the fact that months ago at the time of a similar battle of posts that occured with BBC_z i offered him the oppurtunity to play a heads up SNG, limit or no limit. i'm not a man of great means or skill but was still more than happy to match wits, but i think magi vs. BBC would be much more interesting to watch.
SirBry any chance you can set up an exclusive heads up tourney on Stars for magi and BBC_z to battle this out where it really counts, or maybe they can co-ordinate and everyone can watch them play some straight heads-up poker
I believe we already have a respectable, well organized series of tournaments in our PokerForum.ca games through which we can evaluate strategies, compete against peers, or just enjoy watching all_aces go broke (sorry aces
Our next PokerForum.ca tourney is scheduled for Tuesday Feb 1st.
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=2822
As I have said many times I think BBC brings a very strong dimension to this forum and helps create a lot of discussion. I just wish he wouldn't tell some how stupid they are because he doesn't agree with them.
I'm not sure, but without over simplifing are you trying to say
"It's not just what you say, it's how you say it"
bbc quite often lacks the social skill to be sutle and simply make his point and let the content of his post show his superior intellect rather than putting the rest of us down.
for example bbc is more likely to respond by indicating that i typed 'subtle' incorrectly above and for that reason i'm without a doubt a sub-standard human especially in comparision to him, rather than politely agreeing or disagreeing with what i've typed.
The first was the stupidest thing ever comment.. (which I still stand by)
The second was the gimmie a break at the end of my post. Neither of wich warrents the barrage of attacks I suffered in this thread. Everyone loves to harp on the negative and dismiss the positive. I get to hear crap like 'All you ever post is negativity'. Guess what? Thats bullshit and you know it. I'm doing my best to try and help people when I see their logic is flawed. I've contributed great ideas to this forum, so don't go around discrediting me because you don't like my delivery and don't shortchange what I bring here.
Now, All the bottom feeders that want to chime in with their two cents about my character:
Please go back and read the entire posts. Read every single sentence. Don't just read the parts that confirm what you want to belive. Guess what? I was perfectly civilized the entire time. Even with peoples cheap shots, calling me names, magi swearing, I only stuck to the issues in the thread.
But what happens? Once the real dicussion is over, I get to read 10-15 posts about my being as asshole and I get to read people talk crap about me with no value to their comments whatsoever. Do I retaliate? Ever? No. Yet people feel they are free to take shot at me to pump up their egos that they are somehow better than me because they are all politically correct and nicey nicey.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm a contraversial guy. If I see something that you say that I disagree with, I'll voice my opinion. Thats the cost of the transaction. If you don't like it, please be like pkerface# and put me on whatever ignore list there is.
But you know what? If you actually take the time to read what I write, you'll probably find that your game will improve and you'll actually start thinking about poker rather than reciting a starting hand guide from Lee Jones. And its when you think about the game, when you are CHALLENGED about what you think about the game, that you'll really improve.
So in summary, if you feel the need to swear at me, to tell me I'm short and curt or to insult me, PM it to me. I'm just getting sick of dealing with it in the public forum and theres no purpose in cluttering up good discussions of poker with this crap.
And to Magi.. I went back and I reread the thread. I think we diverged on the KJo because you were referring to never making the mistake in the first place, while I was referring to what you would assuming you made the mistake. We're both right.