A: You are not dominated. It is not possible (barring jokers in the deck). The definition of dominated is a hand that is significantly better than yours. You have the best possible hand pre-flop. You are not dominated.
B: You don't need pot odds - see above.
C: Money is won at all stages of a poker game, pre-flop, flop, turn, and river. You are losing money by folding.
Yes, I can fold AA pre-flop. Sometimes I take smoke breaks, and my hand gets mucked.
Forget details, stats, records of play - lets change it to another example. You have a bet on a dice roll. If the dice comes up 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, player A wins and player B pays player A $1. If the dice comes up 6, player B wins and player A pays player B $10. Player B is "dominated" (as you put it), and will lose this bet 5 out of 6 times on average. Would you rather be player A or B? If player A, PM me and I'll meet you somewhere to play...
You can think what you want about where you make money, -EV decisions are still -EV.
The only time I would fold in that situation is if I was $5 short on my bill payment, and decided that I would gamble to try and make that extra $5, and thus not going for robusto. Hell who am I kidding, all-in for me as well.
And please no more of these folding AA preflop threads. One shows up in every forum once a year, same answers, same handfull of guys who would fold....
Sigh. I almost never say "never" in poker, but NEVER fold pocket aces pre-flop in a cash game. The reward of winning $900 obviously outweighs the risk of getting your AA cracked and losing only $100. Winning poker players choose the most profitable action - whether it is preflop or postflop. If calling has a higher average profit than folding, why would you fold??
Even in a tournament situation on the very first hand of the WSOP Main event, with nine other players going all-in before me, I would instantly call with AA. Instead of being scared of being the first one out of $10,000, my goal in poker is to maximize profit. You can't maximize profit by folding the best hand.
If memory serves...and I'm not THAT old...last year' WSOP, and player ( I believe from Orangeville) claimed to have folded AA preflop nearing the bubble, JUST to ensure he would make the money.
Said it then, say it again...stupid move!
Trevor's example is a perfect lesson on the difference of + and - ev decisions. Folding AA, regardless of number of players in the hand, or position, or even how close to the bubble one is in a tournament, is just plain nuts. In your example Jim, you're the favourite, albeit a small one considering, but you're still the favourite to win $1000 for the price of $100.
If that isn't enough incentive to gamble, you can't be serious about your game.
there's no real skill in calling an all-in if everyone else is already allin.... it's down to luck of the board especially if everyone has pocket pair from aa to 66 .. it can go wrong reaslly fast... especially if someone else has aces too ...
This is a cash game. If you lose your $100, you'll get it back from the donkey who called all-in with 9 10off and luckily spiked two pair (or whatever other monsters are under your bed).
btw, I would call with 910suited in this situation.
Methinks you should call with any two cards as long as they are sooooooooooooooooooooooooted, because poker is all luck anyway. Any two cards can win - especially if you are playing against pokerJAH's AA!
A truly skilled player would be able to make the $900 by folding this hand and outplaying his/her opponents on later hands. Unlike the player who calls and is willing to gamble to hopefully win the hand.
A truly skilled player will make the incredibly profitable call now, and will continue to choose the most profitable plays for the rest of the cash game session, even if they are not as jui$$y as the first hand.
You sit down at a new table, every player starts with $100 (say $1/$2 NLH). You are in the big blind and get dealt AA. 9 other players at the table and they all go all-in pre-flop. Action is to you, do you call or fold?
Being the devil's advocate, I would FOLD in this situation. What, are you f'ck mad ?? Yes, I would fold. Against 9 random hands, I am likely dominated. You can tell me to your black and blue in the face that I have pot odds to call, etc., etc. Personally, I think you make your money in a cash game after the flop.
I be interested to see if someone could provide statistics of their cash game play to see how much they have earned for all-in pre-flop hands vs hands that went to the flop.
Thoughts?
Jesus Christ, can you have any more useless posts?
Actually, IT DEPENDS in a tournament. If we are talking about the same Orangeville player who has played in many major events, his reasoning for folding AA in that bubble situation sounded reasonable. Depending on the tournament prize structure, there are a FEW situations where the reward of folding AA and winning a prize is higher than the risk of calling and ending up with nothing.
If memory serves...and I'm not THAT old...last year' WSOP, and player ( I believe from Orangeville) claimed to have folded AA preflop nearing the bubble, JUST to ensure he would make the money.
Said it then, say it again...stupid move!
Trevor's example is a perfect lesson on the difference of + and - ev decisions. Folding AA, regardless of number of players in the hand, or position, or even how close to the bubble one is in a tournament, is just plain nuts.
Actually, IT DEPENDS in a tournament. If we are talking about the same Orangeville player who has played in many major events, his reasoning for folding AA in that tournament situation sounded reasonable. Depending on the tournament prize structure, there are a FEW situations where the reward of folding AA and winning a prize is higher than the risk of calling and ending up with nothing.
If I'm thinking of the right player, it was because he was "backed" (or a bunch of friends shared in the buy-in) and the group decided that to them making the money was paramount.
how often are you gonna have all the people goes all-in preflop and you have AA?????
this is one time, if you lose, that is it.
according to my PT statis with almost 200k sample size
AA, when see flop, will only holdup 62% or 64% at the river (i have to double check on the exact number )
that is against usually 1 and sometimes 2 players.
It does not give you the edge you think you had.
if you included pots without flop, my AA win 92% (which is mathmatically right for AA)
for AA if somebody raise, and all call to me, i am more willing to push all-in.
but
for everybody to go all-in first, and then I am to act. If i only invest like 2bux (big blind) i did probly protect my stack by folding.
if i have 20-30% of my stack in already, then i'll call it.
This may change a few people's decisions (lol), but I call so fast that I burn the bottom of my hands getting the chips in the middle. Than I grab my wallet in order to re-load. Course, if I win, I cash out and buy a 649 ticket.
A truly skilled player would be able to make the $900 by folding this hand and outplaying his/her opponents on later hands. Unlike the player who calls and is willing to gamble to hopefully win the hand.
I don't care how good you are, winning 9x a full buyin is extremely tough in one session.
Comments
*grabs popcorn and gets ready for a show*
Oh right..the answer to the post. I am NEVER, EVER, folding AA preflop in a non-satellite situation
More details on this please.
B: You don't need pot odds - see above.
C: Money is won at all stages of a poker game, pre-flop, flop, turn, and river. You are losing money by folding.
Mark
Forget details, stats, records of play - lets change it to another example. You have a bet on a dice roll. If the dice comes up 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, player A wins and player B pays player A $1. If the dice comes up 6, player B wins and player A pays player B $10. Player B is "dominated" (as you put it), and will lose this bet 5 out of 6 times on average. Would you rather be player A or B? If player A, PM me and I'll meet you somewhere to play...
You can think what you want about where you make money, -EV decisions are still -EV.
And please no more of these folding AA preflop threads. One shows up in every forum once a year, same answers, same handfull of guys who would fold....
Even in a tournament situation on the very first hand of the WSOP Main event, with nine other players going all-in before me, I would instantly call with AA. Instead of being scared of being the first one out of $10,000, my goal in poker is to maximize profit. You can't maximize profit by folding the best hand.
Said it then, say it again...stupid move!
Trevor's example is a perfect lesson on the difference of + and - ev decisions. Folding AA, regardless of number of players in the hand, or position, or even how close to the bubble one is in a tournament, is just plain nuts. In your example Jim, you're the favourite, albeit a small one considering, but you're still the favourite to win $1000 for the price of $100.
If that isn't enough incentive to gamble, you can't be serious about your game.
No one said luck wasn't an element in this game, and if anyone ever did, they are being foolish. But there is no "skill" in folding AA preflop at all.
but yea... insta call nonetheless
/g2
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Easy call.
Stupid thread.
I get the feeling this is not going to get enough love.
As Ac 72244 25.96 205970 74.02 42 0.02 0.260
Kd Kh 52791 18.97 225423 81.01 42 0.02 0.190
Qc Qh 39025 14.02 239189 85.96 42 0.02 0.140
Jc Jd 29831 10.72 248383 89.26 42 0.02 0.107
Ts Td 22965 8.25 255249 91.73 42 0.02 0.083
9d 9h 17252 6.20 260962 93.78 42 0.02 0.062
8s 8c 14231 5.11 263983 94.87 42 0.02 0.051
7d 7h 13526 4.86 264688 95.12 42 0.02 0.049
6s 6d 16349 5.88 261865 94.11 42 0.02 0.059
I like my 25.96% chance of winning 8x my buy-in.
What's the phrase? Break your fingers pushing your chips in as fast as you can? Something like that.
Ken Warren has made me tons of $$$$ by giving awful advice and selling tons of books.
If the master of the universe says he will destroy all life in the universe unless you fold your aces... ask if he can increase the stakes and call.
Jesus Christ, can you have any more useless posts?
I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!!
If I'm thinking of the right player, it was because he was "backed" (or a bunch of friends shared in the buy-in) and the group decided that to them making the money was paramount.
But I could be thinking of another player though
this is one time, if you lose, that is it.
according to my PT statis with almost 200k sample size
AA, when see flop, will only holdup 62% or 64% at the river (i have to double check on the exact number )
that is against usually 1 and sometimes 2 players.
It does not give you the edge you think you had.
if you included pots without flop, my AA win 92% (which is mathmatically right for AA)
for AA if somebody raise, and all call to me, i am more willing to push all-in.
but
for everybody to go all-in first, and then I am to act. If i only invest like 2bux (big blind) i did probly protect my stack by folding.
if i have 20-30% of my stack in already, then i'll call it.
I don't care how good you are, winning 9x a full buyin is extremely tough in one session.