Underground poker clubs provide a service that provides entertainment, enjoyment, a job for some and a night out. In the Toronto area there is a need for these clubs. The closest casinos are not close at all, and underground clubs also spread different games and different limits than alot of the casinos in Ontario.
I love underground rooms. They offer better dealers than casinos, better customer service and are focussed on you the poker player. Casinos don't care about you, you don't really make them any money.
Now I know there are clubs who have some people on the sheet for 4 or 5 figures. The loan sharking is the only aspect I do not fully agree with, however, I have been out with $500 and been stuck $400 in a 5/5 game and appreciated that instead of going to an ATM I could go on the sheet for a few ton and top up.
It may be illegal but it isn't seedy and it isn't hurting society IMO. If someone wants to take a risk and start a room, great. None of us have clean closets, gambling is gambling, rake free or not.
Running a card room is not a steeping stone to other illegal activities. Just as going 10KM over the limit in a school zone is not a stepping stone to turning tricks on Queen Street. It all depends on the personality of 'criminal' as everyone has said. We all break the law.
What do u concider illegal ? What about the guy who does electrical work or construction on the side to make a EXTRA buck. I am sure there is alot of people out there who has gotten someone to do electrical work or build a basement do they give them cash under the table? Do they charge them taxes? Has a permit been gotten? Have they had all the LEGAL INSPECTIONS DONE. I highly DOUGHT IT...People do things Illegally all the time. Whether they just turn a blind EYE to suit themselves or am I way in left field with this one. What about the slo-pitch game All that is Illegal then to am I right or am I wrong. They make a profit they don't give out cash receits unless they have changed there ways since last year.
I enjoy during this whole thread everyone is pointing fingers instead of answering the question. Everyone is saying well this guy does something illegal, and people don't get mad at him.... well it's not really illegal.... Just answer the question.
What do u concider illegal ? What about the guy who does electrical work or construction on the side to make a EXTRA buck. I am sure there is a lot of people out there who has gotten someone to do electrical work or build a basement do they give them cash under the table? Do they charge them taxes? Has a permit been gotten? Have they had all the LEGAL INSPECTIONS DONE. I highly DOUGHT IT...
Illegal is Illegal, no matter what let's get that straight first. The question is not about carpenters, car salesman, or any other trade\job. The question is about underground poker rooms, focus on that.
Second I do believe that people who run these clubs are more likely to follow into other illicit activities in the future if caught. Why? Well they were doing something illegal in the first place, and therefore staticstically more likely to re offend in a different area. Do I think if this is true across the board, no. But I think there may be a small percentage that will re offend.
Now I know there are clubs who have some people on the sheet for 4 or 5 figures. The loan sharking is the only aspect I do not fully agree with, however, I have been out with $500 and been stuck $400 in a 5/5 game and appreciated that instead of going to an ATM I could go on the sheet for a few ton and top up.
Third- as haddon pointed out it seems to me that these clubs\club owners (organizers) do not just provide a game, but also other illegal services that can lead to other problems where people can lead to other unlawful activities to help pay off these loans they will need to pay.
The closest casinos are not close at all, and underground clubs also spread different games and different limits than alot of the casinos in Ontario.
Convenience doesn't make an excuse to run an illegal club. I am sure these clubs also run in Niagara where proximity isn't an issue.
As for providing better service, well they would have to. What they are doing is illegal and there is no point pissing people off to give them cause to report the club.
What do u concider illegal ? What about the guy who does electrical work or construction on the side to make a EXTRA buck.
Why bring up other issues that are not relevant to the issue? Do we need to discuss all illegal activities that are done? The difference between these two is quite simple. The service that is being provided is not illegal, the act of not paying taxes is. There is only one culpable person in this case. The contractor, not the person getting the service. The police will not barge in and arrest everyone while the work is being performed. The contractor will get an audit and pay a fine. BIG DIFFERENCE.
The fact that there are archaic laws in place solely to suit government interests at opportune times does not mean that I blindly follow a law. Just as you sit there playing poker online, you are performing an illegal activity in certain states. Does the fact that you, by chance, are not performing this act in a locale where it is deemed illegal make it a different activity? Does it make you have higher morals than the player in North Dakota playing the exact same game? Would you stop playing online poker if it were one day deemed illegal unless played on a government controlled site so that the government could further control your income? Viewing the running of an underground room as illegal is certainly technically correct, but only because you choose to blindly follow laws without question. All that is being done is providing a service with a clearly disclosed %age being charged. Noone is being harmed by this action. To compare this with crimes with obvious victims is clearly ridiculous. I notice that the majority of players commenting on the illegality of underground games are those that have never stepped foot inside of such a game. You envision drugs being peddled and back rooms with prostitutes (ok, I'm joking here...only the best clubs have the prostitutes). My questions are these -- what is the crime being commited by those that run such games and how does this harm the everyday citizen?
I enjoy during this whole thread everyone is pointing fingers instead of answering the question. Everyone is saying well this guy does something illegal, and people don't get mad at him.... well it's not really illegal.... Just answer the question.
I agree, this thing has bounced all over. With the original question, I was attempting to make the point that the poker part was irrelevant. However, in stp's "clarified" question:
what I meant was that running an illegal business (poker club) can be a gateway into other illegal activities not just drug dealing
I'd still say no. Basically, if somebody is predisposed to do illegal things, they will, and some will go through poker clubs. However, many will simply be running a club because they like poker and/or are trying to make a living. Criminals will do criminals things, and poker guys will do poker things. Occasionally you will find criminal poker guys, but that doesn't make the 2 an interchangeable stereotype, in my opinion.
And I am not condoning or defending clubs (since "illegal is illegal" as a few have mentioned, even if the law is dumb) when I talk about a "grey area". I am merely pointing out that if somebody view something as grey, they can do it in good conscious (according to their beliefs) while still being repulsed by other activities (which are just as illegal) in what they consider a "black area".
Second I do believe that people who run these clubs are more likely to follow into other illicit activities in the future if caught. Why? Well they were doing something illegal in the first place, and therefore staticstically more likely to re offend in a different area. Do I think if this is true across the board, no. But I think there may be a small percentage that will re offend.
Huh? You don't think it's true, but you say it is a statistic. It's either a fact or an opinion - please clarify...
Someone that even though we disagree can be respectful and non-judgemental
LOL - and you keep putting that to the test! Even though we're often on separate sides of these things, I have to admit you are really able to pick your topics well, and the discussions are always interesting...
The fact that there are archaic laws in place solely to suit government interests at opportune times does not mean that I blindly follow a law.Â
One could also view that you may be just disregarding laws that do not suit your needs.
I do not profess a higher morality than anyone else. I don't think that just because someone runs a club they do not have morals. Nor do I think those that frequent the clubs have less morals than I. In fact I don't care if these clubs exist. Should the Governement allow them? Why not? Besides the obvious need for the governemnt to take their cut, I don't know why, or have read a valid reason, why these clubs shouldn't be legal. Besides the obvious question of legitmacy (ie. running scams with dealers and other cheats that are far more controlled in a Casino). But I also don't have a big issue with legalizing prostitution either. It would probably be better for the industry.
As for the OP as a gateway to other illegal dealings. I don't see evidence of it but I don't find it too absurd. Maybe not drug dealing but other lines of activity that hedge the line of legality.
Let's just be honest about it. The only reason it's illegal is the government isn't getting their grubby fingers on the money. I've played in some clubs with better dealers and better service than the "legal" casinos. After prohibition didn't work why do you think the Americans "legalized" alcohol? Blindly following a stupid law just because it's the law is dumb. That being said one must recognize there maybe consequences if caught. Prostitution is legal in various jurisdictions and illegal in others. Does that make it a big no no in Las Vegas (where it's illegal) and a big hip hip hooray elsewhere in Nevada where it's legal? Follow the money trail because that's usually what it's about. Why else would we have lotteries etc? All that did is take the numbers racket away from organized crime and put it into the government syndicate. Most "morality" issues with the law are either
A) someone might be offended so we better make it illegal we haven't figured out how to get a cut yet. *my vote goes here for most issues*
Would they turn to another illegal activity that may endanger the communities way more then poker clubs would?Â
Basically are poker clubs just a gateway to other illegal activity?
I say no.
Most club owners I know are just poker enthusiasts with an entrepreneurial mind set.
All that is being done is providing a service with a clearly disclosed %age being charged. Noone is being harmed by this action. To compare this with crimes with obvious victims is clearly ridiculous.
I understand that this crime is different than traditional property or violent crimes. It is for that reason that Stats Canada does not classify it as such. Rather, it falls under Other Criminal Code Violations, similar to prostitution.
It is considered illegal for the same reason we have most of our laws – the Western legal system is largely based on Virtue Jurisprudence dictated by Judeo-Christian values. It is said that we should love our neighbours as we love our God. Therefore we should not try to gain at our neighbours expense. This was the most basic law for humanity.
Having said that, there do exist victims of Poker. That is if you are a profitable player. If you are a unprofitable player you become the victim. The majority of this site is devoted to being a better poker player – being able to take a greater profit from “neighbours.†Most play within their means – but there are many who do not – the laws are designed to protect these persons and their families.
Theoretically it is difficult to argue that those who simply facilitate these games are any different from those who play well. Further to that, our govnerment which makes these laws based on Virute Jurisprudence, has legalized gambling, but only in forms that give the government a direct benefit.
I too am torn on this, but until I figure it out I will continue to play.
I do however cannot agree with the statement that there are no victims – if their were no victims – why would any of us play??
To equate losing poker players as victims that should be coddled/protected is ludicrous. Do I need to limit access to food for overweight people to protect them? Do I need to limit access to alcohol to alcoholics to protect them? The fact that I can gamble/play poker responsibly does not mean that others who cannot should be protected. I also feel that prostitution and drugs should be legalized -- I don not partake in either of those activities, however, I see no reason for the government to interfere in any actions/interactions between consenting adults. If children are involved it is, of course, a different situation. As a reasonable adult you must realize that all government activities and laws are both enforced and created due to political and financial motivations.
I believe that the government enacts laws for the good of our society. And I do believe that fast foods and other unhealthy habits should be taxed to the full extent to act as a disinsentive to those they harm the most.
Surely as a reasonable adult you can agree that laws are necessary in order to maintain a society.
And Law is reason without passion.
It would be nice if we all had the option to choose which laws we follow and which laws we do not. But for obvious reason this luxury cannot be afforded. We live in a diverse society, and laws cannot be bent to suit ones passion. For example, should we accept the Sharia code? Many believe we should. However, this code prevents divorce, gives full inherent rights to males, and allows abuse - do you see why law must be reason without passion?
Further, if you were aware to any extent of the massive human trafficking factor invovled in prostitution it is unlikely you would support its legalization - as a reasonable adult.
"Man perfected by society is the best of all animals; he is the most terrible of all when he lives without law, and without justice"
Aristotle was, I am sure of it, a reasonable adult. You know with Socrates as a mentor and Plato as a student I feel his credentials speak for themselves.
As a reasonable adult you must realize that all government activities and laws are both enforced and created due to political and financial motivations.
This is nice - hmmm - as a reasonable adult - no.
However...
Major in Political Science, Masters in Public Administration, 2 years teaching Honors Politics, 2 years in government business planning for a Police service, and Certification in Risk Management - yeah I have some idea of how "government activities and laws are both enforced and created due to political and financial motivations."
Thanks for asking.
This response is not meant to be self-appeasing in anyway - just a clarification to remarks about my knowledge - " As a reasonable adult"
So we can agree to disagree. I am not disregarding your opinions,simply disagreeing with them.
However, you cannot state to me with a straight face that having laws against something at all curbs it's activity in a significant way. If someone wants a prostitute they get one, if someone wants drugs they get them, etc... Political posturing is no better for society than disregarding laws made primarily for such a reason at an opportune time; infact, it is more harmful. One only has to look to the US government wrt 9-11 and the immigration issue to see how people in power use any means necessary to benefit themselves.
Just wait until a legal casino opens within the GTA and see how the government/media spin the numerous raids on underground clubs as benefitting society. It's not as if they don't know the exact location of over 80% of the underground games at this very moment.
Government run gambling? Good for you. Underground? Scurge of society. Off to buy lotto tickets.
I actually find myself siding with GTA on this one. However my views have always been decidedly left wing and certainly not conservative. As I said before this is all about the money. The government actually started up the lotteries in order to pay for the 76 olympics and then realized what a sh*tload of money they could make. They have actually made the worst form of gambling very accessible in the way of slot machines at racetracks. Nothing like having a predermined outcome with no skill necessary to feed the gambling addictions of the masses.
Are people who run card rooms bad people? Some of them are, but then again so are some police officers, lawyers, bankers, plumbers etc. Should they be tarred with the same brush NO. How many small business's, ie convience stores, pool halls, bars skim a whack of cash off the top? Lots. If we are so concerned about crime there's plenty of it out there. Let's start with the gangs that have no disregard for you, me our kids our spouse's etc. as they do the latest drive by shooting.
I do however cannot agree with the statement that there are no victims – if their were no victims – why would any of us play??
There are losers in the games I play, certainly not victims. Sometime's I am one of those losers, most times I come out ahead. If you are playing strictly to victimize people then I believe your playing for all the wrong reasons IMHO.
I know people who can afford to lose large sums of money, they play for the enjoyment with the occassional win. Most casino players do that. It's not about winning or losing it's about playing. That's why they have a VPIP of about 80% rather than the other way around.
To characterize every losing player as a victim does a large diservice to this game and those that provide places to play.
I guess that this would depend on your defintion of a victim.
To be a victim does not necessarily mean a victim of crime.
A victim is someone who suffers from an adverse circumstance (such as losing money) and/or a person who has been tricked or swindled.
Both happen at a poker table, often. Because, Joe, I know you have made me suffer from an adverse circumstance(taking my money) - and I am pretty sure that you didnt always have what you represented (tricking and swindling). Fortunately those are both attributes of a good poker player. Unfortunately, by definition, they create a victim.
Most victims can handle their loses - but there are those who cannot.
GTA - I am content to agree to disagree. I do agree that not all political decisions are made with the best interest of everyone and many are self serving. I have difficulty in agreeing, on a theoretical level, that we should be able to choose which laws we follow. Only because there are those who would choose to disobey laws that most of us would agree should be obeyed.
If you voluntarily choose to play a game and then feel you've been victimized then I guess by definition your correct. Â However I'd say your more a victim of yourself than anything since you choose to play. Â I'd only feel victimized if my opponent was cheating by marking cards, stealing chips out of the pot etc. Â To be bluffed out of a pot and then say you've been tricked or swindled I wouldn't say is correct. Â Look at it how you want I guess.
LOL now that I see El's post.... When is it my turn to victimize you? LOL
Two runners compete the 100 meter dash - 1 lands at the finish line first. Is the loser a victim?
Depends on what is at stake?
In the ancient Olympics, the first place winner would recieve Gold, Olives, Land and Women. All competitors below were exiled from their home towns for disgracing their Gods. They were victims by the definition of the term victim, which requires an adverse circumstance.
My definition of a Victim is from Oxford's and naturally one is able to view, the definiton of, or characteristics of a victim through a multitude of lenses.
But I digress from the original topic of this post - to which I believe we should return. Sorry for the hijack Shannon.
My first post, and despite the fact that this conversation seems to have gone dead; I think there's an interesting point to be made. (pardon the vanity that what I'm about to say is interesting)Â
The same people tossing around words like "victim" are the ones who are so desperately clinging to the illegality of the poker club. Were they truly the upstanding members of society they purport to be..should they not be ceasing the attack on the private game, and instead pushing for its legalization? (and since it was referred to earlier I think I can say I believe that prostitution and possibly drug use fit as well?) Legalization would clear the way for an "OPCA" (Ontario Poker Club Association or something of the like) You'd fill out forms to a Bank and get your loan at prime+1 OAC if you find yourself broke. the club would be licensed, regulated and inspected, perhaps Poker Club management could be offered as a sister to the college Hospitality courses. Is it possible that the PERSONAL and EMOTIONAL desire to be "good" or "legal" etc has clouded the issue for you?
Does it not seem that you are contradicting your stated intention of bettering society and protecting "victims" if instead of petitioning your MP you are sitting on a poker forum benignly commenting as to why poker clubs are "wrong"?
I'm content that I'm taxed on my paycheque and taxed when I spend..I'm not calling for a campaign to legalize so that my poker winnings can be taxed as well. I just wanted to point out that you're approaching this point in a seemingly irrational way. You're calling for reason without emotion, and the betterment of society; but apparently not taking any real steps towards either. Until you do..be content that you most certainly are not subscribing to Aristotle...but Darwin.Â
I believe elements of this post may be directed towards me.
So let us dissect.
1. If you could please show, citing examples, where I desperately cling to the illegality of poker clubs.
If you can do so convincingly I will respond to your accusation. Please keep in mind that my explanation of why gambling is illegal, based on Judeo-Christian values, was just that, an explanation – not an argument but a factual information to provide context for the Canadian legal system.
2. Do we really require more useless publicly funded college courses?
3. If you could please show, citing examples, how I am “benignly commenting†as to why poker clubs are wrong?
Further, how is it possible that I am not taking any further steps if you are arguing that I am benignly commenting?
4. Please show, citing examples, where I called for reason without emotion.
I did state that law is reason free from passion. But this was not a panacea call for reason free from passion.
5. Please elaborate on how I am not subscribing to Aristotle? Do you refer to Aristotelian Logic or are you simply referencing a single quote?
** Not that I claim to subscribe to Aristotle – I prefer Nietzsche **
Comments
I love underground rooms. They offer better dealers than casinos, better customer service and are focussed on you the poker player. Casinos don't care about you, you don't really make them any money.
Now I know there are clubs who have some people on the sheet for 4 or 5 figures. The loan sharking is the only aspect I do not fully agree with, however, I have been out with $500 and been stuck $400 in a 5/5 game and appreciated that instead of going to an ATM I could go on the sheet for a few ton and top up.
It may be illegal but it isn't seedy and it isn't hurting society IMO. If someone wants to take a risk and start a room, great. None of us have clean closets, gambling is gambling, rake free or not.
Running a card room is not a steeping stone to other illegal activities. Just as going 10KM over the limit in a school zone is not a stepping stone to turning tricks on Queen Street. It all depends on the personality of 'criminal' as everyone has said. We all break the law.
Illegal is Illegal, no matter what let's get that straight first. The question is not about carpenters, car salesman, or any other trade\job. The question is about underground poker rooms, focus on that.
Second I do believe that people who run these clubs are more likely to follow into other illicit activities in the future if caught. Why? Well they were doing something illegal in the first place, and therefore staticstically more likely to re offend in a different area. Do I think if this is true across the board, no. But I think there may be a small percentage that will re offend.
Third- as haddon pointed out it seems to me that these clubs\club owners (organizers) do not just provide a game, but also other illegal services that can lead to other problems where people can lead to other unlawful activities to help pay off these loans they will need to pay.
Mike
Convenience doesn't make an excuse to run an illegal club. I am sure these clubs also run in Niagara where proximity isn't an issue.
As for providing better service, well they would have to. What they are doing is illegal and there is no point pissing people off to give them cause to report the club.
Why bring up other issues that are not relevant to the issue? Do we need to discuss all illegal activities that are done? The difference between these two is quite simple. The service that is being provided is not illegal, the act of not paying taxes is. There is only one culpable person in this case. The contractor, not the person getting the service. The police will not barge in and arrest everyone while the work is being performed. The contractor will get an audit and pay a fine. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I'd still say no. Basically, if somebody is predisposed to do illegal things, they will, and some will go through poker clubs. However, many will simply be running a club because they like poker and/or are trying to make a living. Criminals will do criminals things, and poker guys will do poker things. Occasionally you will find criminal poker guys, but that doesn't make the 2 an interchangeable stereotype, in my opinion.
And I am not condoning or defending clubs (since "illegal is illegal" as a few have mentioned, even if the law is dumb) when I talk about a "grey area". I am merely pointing out that if somebody view something as grey, they can do it in good conscious (according to their beliefs) while still being repulsed by other activities (which are just as illegal) in what they consider a "black area".
Huh? You don't think it's true, but you say it is a statistic. It's either a fact or an opinion - please clarify...
LOL - and you keep putting that to the test!
One could also view that you may be just disregarding laws that do not suit your needs.
I do not profess a higher morality than anyone else. I don't think that just because someone runs a club they do not have morals. Nor do I think those that frequent the clubs have less morals than I. In fact I don't care if these clubs exist. Should the Governement allow them? Why not? Besides the obvious need for the governemnt to take their cut, I don't know why, or have read a valid reason, why these clubs shouldn't be legal. Besides the obvious question of legitmacy (ie. running scams with dealers and other cheats that are far more controlled in a Casino). But I also don't have a big issue with legalizing prostitution either. It would probably be better for the industry.
As for the OP as a gateway to other illegal dealings. I don't see evidence of it but I don't find it too absurd. Maybe not drug dealing but other lines of activity that hedge the line of legality.
A) someone might be offended so we better make it illegal
Here's a nice article on why the US government is worried about on line gaming: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/justin_doom/08/15/dooms.day/
I say no.
Most club owners I know are just poker enthusiasts with an entrepreneurial mind set.
You seem to be hinting at drug dealing, stealing, pimpin' hoes...
I don't see them doing anything else but starting up more clubs...
I understand that this crime is different than traditional property or violent crimes. It is for that reason that Stats Canada does not classify it as such. Rather, it falls under Other Criminal Code Violations, similar to prostitution.
It is considered illegal for the same reason we have most of our laws – the Western legal system is largely based on Virtue Jurisprudence dictated by Judeo-Christian values. It is said that we should love our neighbours as we love our God. Therefore we should not try to gain at our neighbours expense. This was the most basic law for humanity.
Having said that, there do exist victims of Poker. That is if you are a profitable player. If you are a unprofitable player you become the victim. The majority of this site is devoted to being a better poker player – being able to take a greater profit from “neighbours.†Most play within their means – but there are many who do not – the laws are designed to protect these persons and their families.
Theoretically it is difficult to argue that those who simply facilitate these games are any different from those who play well. Further to that, our govnerment which makes these laws based on Virute Jurisprudence, has legalized gambling, but only in forms that give the government a direct benefit.
I too am torn on this, but until I figure it out I will continue to play.
I do however cannot agree with the statement that there are no victims – if their were no victims – why would any of us play??
Surely as a reasonable adult you can agree that laws are necessary in order to maintain a society.
And Law is reason without passion.
It would be nice if we all had the option to choose which laws we follow and which laws we do not. But for obvious reason this luxury cannot be afforded. We live in a diverse society, and laws cannot be bent to suit ones passion. For example, should we accept the Sharia code? Many believe we should. However, this code prevents divorce, gives full inherent rights to males, and allows abuse - do you see why law must be reason without passion?
Further, if you were aware to any extent of the massive human trafficking factor invovled in prostitution it is unlikely you would support its legalization - as a reasonable adult.
Aristotle
"Man perfected by society is the best of all animals; he is the most terrible of all when he lives without law, and without justice"
Aristotle was, I am sure of it, a reasonable adult. You know with Socrates as a mentor and Plato as a student I feel his credentials speak for themselves.
And to suggest that losing players are not victims may be your point of view - however many see it differently -
I will not attempt to argue whether you are correct or not, but you may want to check it out.....
"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought, without accepting it"
I am sure the family members of those who are addicted would argue that people neeed help....
I believe so - and I vote conservative :0
This is nice - hmmm - as a reasonable adult - no.
However...
Major in Political Science, Masters in Public Administration, 2 years teaching Honors Politics, 2 years in government business planning for a Police service, and Certification in Risk Management - yeah I have some idea of how "government activities and laws are both enforced and created due to political and financial motivations."
Thanks for asking.
This response is not meant to be self-appeasing in anyway - just a clarification to remarks about my knowledge - " As a reasonable adult"
However, you cannot state to me with a straight face that having laws against something at all curbs it's activity in a significant way. If someone wants a prostitute they get one, if someone wants drugs they get them, etc... Political posturing is no better for society than disregarding laws made primarily for such a reason at an opportune time; infact, it is more harmful. One only has to look to the US government wrt 9-11 and the immigration issue to see how people in power use any means necessary to benefit themselves.
Just wait until a legal casino opens within the GTA and see how the government/media spin the numerous raids on underground clubs as benefitting society. It's not as if they don't know the exact location of over 80% of the underground games at this very moment.
Government run gambling? Good for you. Underground? Scurge of society. Off to buy lotto tickets.
Are people who run card rooms bad people? Some of them are, but then again so are some police officers, lawyers, bankers, plumbers etc. Should they be tarred with the same brush NO. How many small business's, ie convience stores, pool halls, bars skim a whack of cash off the top? Lots. If we are so concerned about crime there's plenty of it out there. Let's start with the gangs that have no disregard for you, me our kids our spouse's etc. as they do the latest drive by shooting.
There are losers in the games I play, certainly not victims. Sometime's I am one of those losers, most times I come out ahead. If you are playing strictly to victimize people then I believe your playing for all the wrong reasons IMHO.
I know people who can afford to lose large sums of money, they play for the enjoyment with the occassional win. Most casino players do that. It's not about winning or losing it's about playing. That's why they have a VPIP of about 80% rather than the other way around.
To characterize every losing player as a victim does a large diservice to this game and those that provide places to play.
To be a victim does not necessarily mean a victim of crime.
A victim is someone who suffers from an adverse circumstance (such as losing money) and/or a person who has been tricked or swindled.
Both happen at a poker table, often. Because, Joe, I know you have made me suffer from an adverse circumstance(taking my money) - and I am pretty sure that you didnt always have what you represented (tricking and swindling). Fortunately those are both attributes of a good poker player. Unfortunately, by definition, they create a victim.
Most victims can handle their loses - but there are those who cannot.
GTA - I am content to agree to disagree. I do agree that not all political decisions are made with the best interest of everyone and many are self serving. I have difficulty in agreeing, on a theoretical level, that we should be able to choose which laws we follow. Only because there are those who would choose to disobey laws that most of us would agree should be obeyed.
Two runners compete the 100 meter dash - 1 lands at the finish line first. Is the loser a victim?
I certainly don't believe so.
Compulsive, additcted gamblers are a victim of their addiction, not of the other players in the game.
LOL now that I see El's post.... When is it my turn to victimize you? LOL
Depends on what is at stake?
In the ancient Olympics, the first place winner would recieve Gold, Olives, Land and Women. All competitors below were exiled from their home towns for disgracing their Gods. They were victims by the definition of the term victim, which requires an adverse circumstance.
My definition of a Victim is from Oxford's and naturally one is able to view, the definiton of, or characteristics of a victim through a multitude of lenses.
But I digress from the original topic of this post - to which I believe we should return. Sorry for the hijack Shannon.
stp
The same people tossing around words like "victim" are the ones who are so desperately clinging to the illegality of the poker club. Were they truly the upstanding members of society they purport to be..should they not be ceasing the attack on the private game, and instead pushing for its legalization? (and since it was referred to earlier I think I can say I believe that prostitution and possibly drug use fit as well?) Legalization would clear the way for an "OPCA" (Ontario Poker Club Association or something of the like) You'd fill out forms to a Bank and get your loan at prime+1 OAC if you find yourself broke. the club would be licensed, regulated and inspected, perhaps Poker Club management could be offered as a sister to the college Hospitality courses. Is it possible that the PERSONAL and EMOTIONAL desire to be "good" or "legal" etc has clouded the issue for you?
Does it not seem that you are contradicting your stated intention of bettering society and protecting "victims" if instead of petitioning your MP you are sitting on a poker forum benignly commenting as to why poker clubs are "wrong"?
I'm content that I'm taxed on my paycheque and taxed when I spend..I'm not calling for a campaign to legalize so that my poker winnings can be taxed as well. I just wanted to point out that you're approaching this point in a seemingly irrational way. You're calling for reason without emotion, and the betterment of society; but apparently not taking any real steps towards either. Until you do..be content that you most certainly are not subscribing to Aristotle...but Darwin.Â
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
I believe elements of this post may be directed towards me.
So let us dissect.
1. If you could please show, citing examples, where I desperately cling to the illegality of poker clubs.
If you can do so convincingly I will respond to your accusation. Please keep in mind that my explanation of why gambling is illegal, based on Judeo-Christian values, was just that, an explanation – not an argument but a factual information to provide context for the Canadian legal system.
2. Do we really require more useless publicly funded college courses?
3. If you could please show, citing examples, how I am “benignly commenting†as to why poker clubs are wrong?
Further, how is it possible that I am not taking any further steps if you are arguing that I am benignly commenting?
4. Please show, citing examples, where I called for reason without emotion.
I did state that law is reason free from passion. But this was not a panacea call for reason free from passion.
5. Please elaborate on how I am not subscribing to Aristotle? Do you refer to Aristotelian Logic or are you simply referencing a single quote?
** Not that I claim to subscribe to Aristotle – I prefer Nietzsche