"We don't go out of our way to romance MPs to get them to cross the floor. Liberals will do anything to win.
"We are trying to create a principled party where people act in a principled way, and obviously we're fairly cautious about encouraging party jumping, because that's the kind of thing that generates cynicism.
"And frankly, when someone jumps, once you're not sure you can trust them the next time, so I would always handle that with an extraordinary degree of caution."
Harper is a liar like the rest of them. He saw an oppurtunity and took it. This isn't about good government it is about the Conservatives having more power.
Emmerson should face re-election. Perhaps if this switch occurred years or even months after an election it would be different, but this is just mere weeks, or probably even days. His riding should be up in arms.
Yes, we vote for our riding, not for the Prime Minister. However, in reality most people vote for the party. Emmerson proves that this government will be no different in ethics than the last one.
Michael Fortier, an unelected party operative, is the new minister of public works and government services.
Thoughts?
To be honest, I'm not well enough informed on this one. However, we have an unelected Senate and Supreme Court as well. I would prefer to see all these officials elected, but under our current system, I have no problem with someone being appointed to Cabinet who wasn't elected. If Harper thinks he is the best person for the job and he is allowed to appoint somebody unelected, then do it. I think the question is whether Fortier can be considered a good choice (which I have no opinion on right now - sorry), not whether he's elected.
They allowed him to come across, and then they downplayed it, and now everyone is being reminded of what they said before. The way they handled it is hypocritical, so I don't think they handled it well at all. I think having him cross to sit as a Liberal cabinet member would be ok, but that's not what happened. He switched sides, which is wrong on it's own, but worse based on statements he made about the Conservatives, and statements the Conservatives made about ethics and Stronach.
Perhaps if this switch occurred years or even months after an election it would be different, but this is just mere weeks, or probably even days.
I think this makes it "look" worse, but I don't think it's "actually" any worse. Defecting (immediately or after a few years) means putting your own interests ahead of those of your constituents, and that's wrong.
Yes, we vote for our riding, not for the Prime Minister. However, in reality most people vote for the party.
I'm not sure what the point of this is? Many people make dumb votes, either "against something" as Sandro mentioned, or for something they don't understand, or for the PM (which is not what there vote is for). I don't think people's stupidity affects what Emerson did.
Cabinet selection is a difficult task for a Canadian Prime Minister. Canada is very Diverse; its geo-political scope and Quebec create a unique challenge for an incoming Prime Minister.
The Cabinet essential runs the entire government - The Prime Minister acts as their voice - it is essential that Harper chose a representative Cabinet that was above all else highly competent.
Emerson, has proven himself as an effective member - a new liberal - who represents Vancouver.
Fortier is from Quebec and highly competent - enough said.
It was Trudeau who gave the precedent of using unelected members in Cabinet.
Also Winston Churchill was a floor crosser - and is widely accepted as one of the World's greatest democratic leaders.
I'm not sure what the point of this is? Many people make dumb votes, either "against something" as Sandro mentioned, or for something they don't understand, or for the PM (which is not what there vote is for). I don't think people's stupidity affects what Emerson did.
I mean that the people in his riding voted Liberal and not Conservative. His switch made all the votes irrelevant.
The Cabinet essential runs the entire government - The Prime Minister acts as their voice - it is essential that Harper chose a representative Cabinet that was above all else highly competent.
I think that is a load of bull. He couldn't find a qualified member in the Conservative party? He wasn't doing what was best for the country. He was doing what was best for him and his party.
To me this is not an issue of crossing/not crossing it is an issue of campaigning and then letting the power change your word. Harper was all over the crossing of Belinda. Â I thought it was wrong also and think it should not be allowed without another election. (Costly but fair).
If this is a vote for the person not the party. Have another election in that riding. It should be pretty cheap now as all the voter information is current.
Fortier is another issue as Harper stated many times that the Senate should be elected and not appointed and on day one he goes against his belief.
2 times he has gone against what he believes. This man is living up to my expectations.
Anyways that's enough for me on this subject. The sooner the next election the better. I will wait until then to cast my vote and hope for the best.
I think that is a load of bull. He couldn't find a qualified member in the Conservative party? He wasn't doing what was best for the country. He was doing what was best for him and his party.
No, not from Quebec. Traditionally Quebec will have 25% of the Cabinet. Harper was trying to be inclusive.
He would rather have had more Albertans - They are the base of his support and many are displeased, to be polite, with his choice of an East "heavy" Cabinet.
I too hope for a new election - Only because I dont want this section of the forum to become stagnate
To me this is not an issue of crossing/not crossing it is an issue of campaigning and then letting the power change your word.
I think both are issues (Emerson for the first, Harper for the second) and I have problems with both. I am a staunch conservative, but I don't think you can honestly spin this as anything but a big mistake (although they will try).
If this is a vote for the person not the party. Have another election in that riding. It should be pretty cheap now as all the voter information is current.
Fortier is another issue as Harper stated many times that the Senate should be elected and not appointed and on day one he goes against his belief.
I understand how you could see this as a conflict, hower, this appointment is to cabinet, not to the Senate. Also, if a Senator happens to die or retire, does that mean Harper would be going against his beliefs if he appointed a new Senator in his place? I think he can want the existing laws changed AND be allowed to follow the current law without there being a conflict.
I don't think that Emmerson is a good representation of his area. He went against his ridings wishes and split from the party that he claimed to represent in the election.
Why then doesn't Harper ask a Liberal to be a part of his cabinet if he is so concerned with Canada's best interests?
I don't think that Emmerson is a good representation of his area. He went against his ridings wishes and split from the party that he claimed to represent in the election.
Why then doesn't Harper ask a Liberal to be a part of his cabinet if he is so concerned with Canada's best interests?
I totally agree.
If you saw the clip from his victory speech, you have to wonder why he even took the phone call from the PM, let alone the job. He said some pretty nasty things, even for "political speech"
I think he might be the biggest hypocit to serve in Ottawa. (I Know that's saying alot!)
That being said, I'm still going to give this government a fair chance. It won't be that bad.
"It was not a matter of me deciding before the election that I was going to jump across, I had no intention of doing so," he said, adding that if Paul Martin had won the election he would "absolutely" still be a Liberal.
So it's a win-win situation for the guy, sit on the fence and go with whoever wins! And people wonder why the average voter doesn't trust their politicians. Conservatives "cleaning up government" with their superior ethics...? Umm, right guys... See you at the polls in another 18 months...
Since the Prime Minster did not elect to have a Deputy PM, what happens if Harper is unable to finish his term? (Death, Illness, whatever)
Who would lead the country?
Actually, the Deputy PM does not succeed the PM - it is simply an honorary post. If the PM dies/resigns, the government chooses a new leader (either interim or through a leadership convention). Informally, the Deputy PM is usually expected to be the interim leader, but the Deputy PM position has NO legal standing.
I have solution - could everyone write The Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean representative of our Queen here in Canada and let her know you are sick of Canadian politics, elections and most of all politicians.
Kindly inform her that you would please select a Mr. Thomas North to be the Supreme Commander of Canada. I will be autocratic - but I promise not to be a tyrant or despot - more like a new absolute Monarch for our great country.
Tired of all the crooks? Hate going out to vote once every year and a half? If so, please select me as the new and indefinite leader of Canada!
Please forward nomination to:
The Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean
Rideau Hall
1 Sussex Drive
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A1
Actually we were not talking about the election, but the recent party switch of Emmerson.
Are we not allowed? Why don't you get the stupid "This or That" thread shut down. Commie! Oh I see now, you're trying to supress us like Harper! Harper lover! Bush lover! (wait..not that Bush...the guy Bush).
Just so that I can hijack this thread, but I think a good idea would be if we had the option to not see updates to threads that we have no interest with. I'll post this idea in the site feedback section as well
Would this thread sound better if it were "I'm dealt Harper and McKay, move all-in, and am called by Martin/Stronach ... Block comes on the river, and the table breaks"? There are a bunch of threads in "Off-topic" that I'm not really interested in, but those who are interested read them, so I just ignore what I don't like. Just like bad beats, the posts will keep coming - ignore the content you don't want to read.Â
This thread also died naturally just after the election, but was reopened for the Emerson issue, since those interested already read this topic, and those who don't would ignore it. Rather than keeping a thread like this on-going, would you prefer to see multiple threads (like the Ryder Cup)? I think this is far more manageable for everyone.
And I think this thread is dead until the next big political screw-up anyway (unless Tom gets bored one afternoon)
Comments
I think they may have handled Emerson quite well. Once again we will have to see if it is just "smoke and mirrors" or if this is actually a good move.
Michael Fortier, an unelected party operative, is the new minister of public works and government services.
Thoughts?
Disagree with the decision.
"We don't go out of our way to romance MPs to get them to cross the floor. Liberals will do anything to win.
"We are trying to create a principled party where people act in a principled way, and obviously we're fairly cautious about encouraging party jumping, because that's the kind of thing that generates cynicism.
"And frankly, when someone jumps, once you're not sure you can trust them the next time, so I would always handle that with an extraordinary degree of caution."
Harper is a liar like the rest of them. He saw an oppurtunity and took it. This isn't about good government it is about the Conservatives having more power.
Emmerson should face re-election. Perhaps if this switch occurred years or even months after an election it would be different, but this is just mere weeks, or probably even days. His riding should be up in arms.
Yes, we vote for our riding, not for the Prime Minister. However, in reality most people vote for the party. Emmerson proves that this government will be no different in ethics than the last one.
They allowed him to come across, and then they downplayed it, and now everyone is being reminded of what they said before. The way they handled it is hypocritical, so I don't think they handled it well at all. I think having him cross to sit as a Liberal cabinet member would be ok, but that's not what happened. He switched sides, which is wrong on it's own, but worse based on statements he made about the Conservatives, and statements the Conservatives made about ethics and Stronach.
Totally agree.
I think this makes it "look" worse, but I don't think it's "actually" any worse. Defecting (immediately or after a few years) means putting your own interests ahead of those of your constituents, and that's wrong.
If the media reports are correct (which is possible
I'm not sure what the point of this is? Many people make dumb votes, either "against something" as Sandro mentioned, or for something they don't understand, or for the PM (which is not what there vote is for). I don't think people's stupidity affects what Emerson did.
The Cabinet essential runs the entire government - The Prime Minister acts as their voice - it is essential that Harper chose a representative Cabinet that was above all else highly competent.
Emerson, has proven himself as an effective member - a new liberal - who represents Vancouver.
Fortier is from Quebec and highly competent - enough said.
It was Trudeau who gave the precedent of using unelected members in Cabinet.
Also Winston Churchill was a floor crosser - and is widely accepted as one of the World's greatest democratic leaders.
I mean that the people in his riding voted Liberal and not Conservative. His switch made all the votes irrelevant.
I think that is a load of bull. He couldn't find a qualified member in the Conservative party? He wasn't doing what was best for the country. He was doing what was best for him and his party.
If this is a vote for the person not the party. Have another election in that riding. It should be pretty cheap now as all the voter information is current.
Fortier is another issue as Harper stated many times that the Senate should be elected and not appointed and on day one he goes against his belief.
2 times he has gone against what he believes. This man is living up to my expectations.
Anyways that's enough for me on this subject. The sooner the next election the better. I will wait until then to cast my vote and hope for the best.
No, not from Quebec. Traditionally Quebec will have 25% of the Cabinet. Harper was trying to be inclusive.
He would rather have had more Albertans - They are the base of his support and many are displeased, to be polite, with his choice of an East "heavy" Cabinet.
I too hope for a new election - Only because I dont want this section of the forum to become stagnate
I was referring to Emmerson.
Totally agree.
I understand how you could see this as a conflict, hower, this appointment is to cabinet, not to the Senate. Also, if a Senator happens to die or retire, does that mean Harper would be going against his beliefs if he appointed a new Senator in his place? I think he can want the existing laws changed AND be allowed to follow the current law without there being a conflict.
Well that is a similar situation.
The Conservatives were shut out of Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.
Emerson was a part of that solution.
You cannot legitimately run a country without the interests of its 3 largest urban centres being represented.
Actually, in order to sit in the Cabinet, Harper had to appoint Fortier as a Senator.
Why then doesn't Harper ask a Liberal to be a part of his cabinet if he is so concerned with Canada's best interests?
Who would lead the country?
Johnnie
NOTE: I'm NOT suggesting we should knock him off, I'm just curious is all.
I totally agree.
If you saw the clip from his victory speech, you have to wonder why he even took the phone call from the PM, let alone the job. He said some pretty nasty things, even for "political speech"
I think he might be the biggest hypocit to serve in Ottawa. (I Know that's saying alot!)
That being said, I'm still going to give this government a fair chance. It won't be that bad.
They were VOTED in, right?
(Just My Humble "Left Leaning" Opinion)
JohnnieH
(From the Globe and Mail)
"It was not a matter of me deciding before the election that I was going to jump across, I had no intention of doing so," he said, adding that if Paul Martin had won the election he would "absolutely" still be a Liberal.
So it's a win-win situation for the guy, sit on the fence and go with whoever wins! And people wonder why the average voter doesn't trust their politicians. Conservatives "cleaning up government" with their superior ethics...? Umm, right guys... See you at the polls in another 18 months...
Kindly inform her that you would please select a Mr. Thomas North to be the Supreme Commander of Canada. I will be autocratic - but I promise not to be a tyrant or despot - more like a new absolute Monarch for our great country.
Tired of all the crooks? Hate going out to vote once every year and a half? If so, please select me as the new and indefinite leader of Canada!
Please forward nomination to:
The Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean
Rideau Hall
1 Sussex Drive
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A1
I am sure I am not the only one who hates seeing this think pop up.
For those of you who feel you won, stop gloating and for the rest get over it already the election is OVER!
ok back it my shell now.
BTW if you feel you still must talk to each other, just pm each other. Its only a 3 way pm.
Are we not allowed? Why don't you get the stupid "This or That" thread shut down. Commie! Oh I see now, you're trying to supress us like Harper! Harper lover! Bush lover! (wait..not that Bush...the guy Bush).
I am curious if you understand the definition of forum any more than you understand the complexities of Canadian politics.
This thread also died naturally just after the election, but was reopened for the Emerson issue, since those interested already read this topic, and those who don't would ignore it. Rather than keeping a thread like this on-going, would you prefer to see multiple threads (like the Ryder Cup)? I think this is far more manageable for everyone.
And I think this thread is dead until the next big political screw-up anyway (unless Tom gets bored one afternoon)
BBZ would be proud!