Tournament Strategy advice needed.

ReefAquariumReefAquarium
in MTT Strategy
Hi,

I'm a newbie at tournaments.

I played my second tournament in the last 6 years.
Usually I play cash games.

I figured I'd start with the easiest tournament I could find.

This is an 80 person $80 tournament at Brantford.

Hand 1

I chip to to over 63,000, 4x my buyin, I'm the chip leader. I've raised the last 3 hands in a row. My table image is immaculate, A+ I've won every big hand I've played. I'm just pounding the table non-stop and they are in "Take it Doyle" mode. Mostly they limp, I bet , they call. I C-bet the flop, they fold.

UTG I raise 3x, UTG+1 3 bets me for half his stack. it gets folded around to me.

Wow!

First 3 bet someone besides me has made.

I have AsKs.

He's bet a bit more than a min raise but it's about half his stack so it's the same as all in pretty much.

I don't think they have gotten their balls, I think they have picked up a hand... Do you shove/call?
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Comments

  • compueasecompuease Admin
    He's barely more than min raised you, so say 7BB which is half his stack.. Of course get it in.. Unless he has AA, you are not enough of a dog not to get it in. It has to be a small % of your stack given your description..
  • sn1perb0ysn1perb0y
    All in!!!
  • wildbill7145wildbill7145
    Welcome to the forum!
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    Unless you can narrow his range to only AA, you use Sklansky's Concept No. 22 & shove. After you lose, you shout, "Brantford is rigged!" then swear that you will stick to cash games & never play any donkaments ever again. Did you cash?
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    I have AsKs.

    He's bet a bit more than a min raise but it's about half his stack so it's the same as all in pretty much.

    I don't think they have gotten their balls, I think they have picked up a hand... Do you shove/call?
  • hiphopopotamushiphopopotamus
    3x preflop open is too big and get it in with AK. They probably have a decent hand but AKs is still way ahead of their range, especially if this is the 4th hand you've raised in a row.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    Unless you can narrow his range to only AA, you use Sklansky's Concept No. 22 & shove. After you lose, you shout, "Brantford is rigged!" then swear that you will stick to cash games & never play any donkaments ever again. Did you cash?

    Fast forward.

    We are at the final table, I'm 4th in chips.

    10 people, tournement pays 9.

    One girl is collecting $$ from everyone assuming everyone will put in $$ for the bubble person.

    I say, "Lets put $$ in for a last longer bet!"

    I say, No, I'm not giving $$ for the bubble person.

    Ist hand I get it all in with the chip leader 88<AQ and I'm out.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    If you've played online tournaments on the bubble, you will find the desperate pleas for a bubble prize in live donkaments very strange. It does not make financial or poker sense for above average chips stacks to give up the huge bubble equity they have, but the fact that so many live players desperately pressure for AND ACCEPT a bubble prize tells you that these live tournaments are +EV. At the GBH Deep Stack tourney, the usual $50/pp solicitations started on the bubble, but one of the smartest players quickly said no.
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    Ist hand I get it all in with the chip leader 88<AQ and I'm out.
    That's the hand you should have asked for tournament strategy advice! ;)
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    I'm curious... you're 4th in chip but you risk your tournament life (on the bubble too) with 88, why?
  • The_AwesomeThe_Awesome
    Bubble karma.
  • BfillmaffBfillmaff
    Karma indeed - but good call to not coddle the bubble whiners!!

    Details on the 88 / AQ hand? (Misstep or misread?)
  • magsmags
    Every time I have played where it is usually 1 person who decides they don't want to pay the bubble they are the one that bubbles, hmmm.
  • djgolfcandjgolfcan
    At Brantford, I am happily shoving AKs to any 3 bet, and you would be shocked at how many players will fold, even after sticking half their stack in pre-flop.
    The hand you went out on is curious. I get that in a cash game, you take the smallest edges (52/48) and push them all day long, but in a tournament, at the bubble, against a stack that can take you out, I generally do not risk my tournament life.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    That's another popular myth among live players, just like "online/electronic poker is rigged." In the many live final tables I've been, the bubble boy is usually one of the micro stacks that was trying to pressure everybody into donating cash & equity for the bubble. I'm willing to do an experiment where I will automatically say no to a bubble prize (unlike before), and report back if I suddenly become the bubble boy every time.
    mags wrote: »
    Every time I have played where it is usually 1 person who decides they don't want to pay the bubble they are the one that bubbles, hmmm.
  • hiphopopotamushiphopopotamus
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    That's another popular myth among live players, just like "online/electronic poker is rigged." In the many live final tables I've been, the bubble boy is usually one of the micro stacks that was trying to pressure everybody into donating cash & equity for the bubble. I'm willing to do an experiment where I will automatically say no to a bubble prize (unlike before), and report back if I suddenly become the bubble boy every time.

    I declined paying the bubble at a Brantford tournament a month or two ago and then cracked queens and kings in the first two hands and won the tournament. Fwiw, I am 3/3 for winning tournaments where I refused to pay bubble.
  • Card DeadCard Dead
    Im a big fan of the bubble donation as I'm usually one of the short stacks at the bubble, if not the shortest, however, I rarely end up being the bubble boy.

    So for me, it's usually a -EV proposition but it think it's bad Karma and bad manners not to play along.

    And I also agree that 88 is an odd spot to bust out at that stage, unless the flop came down AQ8 or something and you then got it all in.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    Manners at the table?

    tapatalk puts this here to annoy YOU
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    Bubble donation is -EV unless I'm the shortest stack. I'm 4th.

    If there is no bubble prize then you have more fold equity or fear equity.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    If there is no bubble prize then you have more fold equity or fear equity.
    Many live players I've encountered don't seem to understand equity or know how to maximize equity. Some cluelessly think that the chipleader is the most evil &^%$#@! in the world if he refuses to give up his equity, and they will forever remember if you happen to get unlucky and become the bubble boy. Some think that EVERYBODY should donate to the bubble to "make the game go faster." :rolleyes:

    I back up anybody that refuses, but if everybody else but me has eagerly agreed, I sometimes cave in to the "but we always do it here" peer pressure if the shortstacks are players that I know and if I want these bubble donators to keep playing and donating in the future. From now on, I think I'll be more like ReefAquarium & hiphopopotamus and JUST SAY NO.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    Many live players I've encountered don't seem to understand equity or know how to maximize equity. Some cluelessly think that the chipleader is the most evil &^%$#@! in the world if he refuses to give up his equity, and they will forever remember if you happen to get unlucky and become the bubble boy. Some think that EVERYBODY should donate to the bubble to "make the game go faster." :rolleyes:

    I back up anybody that refuses, but if everybody else but me has eagerly agreed, I sometimes cave in to the "but we always do it here" peer pressure if the shortstacks are players that I know and if I want these bubble donators to keep playing and donating in the future. From now on, I think I'll be more like ReefAquarium & hiphopopotamus and JUST SAY NO.

    Dealer said, "We always give $10 to the bubble"

    I replied, "You go ahead and do that"
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    My 3 bet there was pretty bad eh?

    I noticed: nobody ever 3 bet without AA or KK ; Nobody folds to a 3 bet ; Nobody else thought this was retarded.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    For example, This happened twice to me int he tournament;

    UTG I raise (4th hands in a row, everyone folds) ... I get 3 bet shoved for about 2.5x my raise size ... I have AKs ... should I call the all in?

    Are they adjusting to the fact that I am raising about 50% of my hands and I've raised 4 hands in a row or did they just pick up a hand????

    So far I've been completely card dead, But they limp->I raise-> they call-> I cbet->they fold!!! Has made me the chip leader for the tournament.

    Anyone who's not a brain dead moron should realize that my raising standards are "Any black card or any red card", Right?


    Both times they had AA

    wow.

    It seems that people are countering my aggressive strategy by 3 betting with AA and KK.

    Is this what usually happens in tournaments at brantford?
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    Anyone who's not a brain dead moron should realize that my raising standards are "Any black card or any red card", Right?
    Welcome to live donkaments! Wanna pay $50 for the bubble?
  • marbanmarban
    is it me , or do i detect some self satisfied snobbery on this thread regarding these lower but ins at Brantford.........ok so an 80$ one may be a step above home games, but this anal refusal to pay a bubble seems to me to be petty and cheap.........for gawd sake just dip into your wallets for a 10 spot and have some fun, FFS...........it aint a WPT stop..:)....
  • hiphopopotamushiphopopotamus
    marban wrote: »
    is it me , or do i detect some self satisfied snobbery on this thread regarding these lower but ins at Brantford.........ok so an 80$ one may be a step above home games, but this anal refusal to pay a bubble seems to me to be petty and cheap.........for gawd sake just dip into your wallets for a 10 spot and have some fun, FFS...........it aint a WPT stop..:)....

    My preference not to pay the bubble doesn't have anything to do with being petty or cheap nor the size of buy-in. I don't get why anyone would want to eliminate a part of the tournament where you should really have a large edge if you know how to play it properly.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    The weird thing is that the chipleaders in the $220-$1,090 Brantford, $300 Rama, $550 GBH, etc. are so willing to give up the cash and huge bubble equity. While a lot more online players would laugh if asked to make a bubble donation, many live players seem to automatically say yes without realizing how much they are giving up. Even at the WPT Fallsview super satellite, many of the scaredy-cat players that weren't the shortest stacks wanted to give up money for the bubble, but the unfriendly Fallsview TD gave a harsh warning that it was somehow against the rules to even TALK :confused: about a bubble donation or to play slow in your table.

    Now ReefAquarium understands why I love live tournament$ $o much!
    marban wrote: »
    .........ok so an 80$ one may be a step above home games, but this anal refusal to pay a bubble seems to me to be petty and cheap.........for gawd sake just dip into your wallets for a 10 spot and have some fun, FFS...........it aint a WPT stop..
  • moosemoose
    marban wrote: »
    is it me , or do i detect some self satisfied snobbery on this thread regarding these lower but ins at Brantford.........ok so an 80$ one may be a step above home games, but this anal refusal to pay a bubble seems to me to be petty and cheap.........for gawd sake just dip into your wallets for a 10 spot and have some fun, FFS...........it aint a WPT stop..:)....

    Why don't we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya?

    Why don't we pay bubble+1 too?

    Why don't we all just chop on the first hand and get our money back and let the casino keep their juice?

    Why don't people just accept the payout structure as it is given and not play if they don't like it?

    You know what is special about the bubble? Nothing. What's cheap and petty is the bubble thinking that somehow means that they deserve some money for 'getting close' and feeling aggrieved if they don't get a bubble prize.

    They didn't get far enough to make the money and neither did any of the other already eliminated players.
  • marbanmarban
    Moose, in particular, is bastardizing my point, ..anyway , you guys continue on....
  • BfillmaffBfillmaff
    I think the point is that no matter how hard you try to pay the last guy before the money, there will always be a last guy before the money.
  • BfillmaffBfillmaff
    PS.... manners, snobbery, and karma? heh... this is poker!

    I will accept a bubble prize 100% of the time when I am the shortest stack, and 0% of the time when I am not. Karma can suck it.
  • marbanmarban
    Bfillmaff wrote: »
    PS.... manners, snobbery, and karma? heh... this is poker!

    I will accept a bubble prize 100% of the time when I am the shortest stack, and 0% of the time when I am not. Karma can suck it.
    when aces get cracked by 87 off, when someone hits a 2 outer on the river, set over set, thats poker...but things that a human being can control like manners,and snobbery is not poker...........BTW, in the few instances that im involved in chopping, i always decline..........but paying a few bucks out of pocket to a bubble yes. ...no matter what you guys say....:biggrin2:
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