I wished your TD was the TD at WPT Fallsview! Not only was he not "out to get you" (unlike the Fallsview TD), he actually made the correct rulings. The TDA rule is:
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.
Some Fallsview staff made a lot of wrong rulings regarding this, costing players thousands of dollars in the satellites/tournaments over the years as accidentally or mistakenly exposed cards were ruled dead! After I saw a friend get victimized by this terrible ruling during a satellite for a $1K prize, I had to show everybody my copy of the TDA Rules so that players would not keep losing thousands of dollars due to a wrong ruling.
Before the flop was even dealt I verbal expressed that I thought both his rulings were wrong 1) the guy wasn't required to fold after intentionally showing a card during tournament play 2) once he allowed one card to be turned over I should have been given the same curiosity and his rulings were intentionally biased against me.
:
To this day I believe the TD was wrong, what I don't know if it was intentional or not. But I have to believe he was not out to get me. Only he knows for sure.
I think it is nearly 100% that intentionally showing cards in a tournament is an automatic fold unless other wised announced at the start of a tournament.
I wished your TD was the TD at WPT Fallsview! Not only was he not "out to get you" (unlike the Fallsview TD), he actually made the correct rulings. The TDA rule is:
This hand happened around 2007 I believe I could look it up if needed.
I believe tournament play and rules were an evolving process at the time. The first couple of years running Westside, it was a dead hand intentional or unintentional. Then we changed to the way Buddy has described it.
Notice, two of the 6 TD's say the had is dead. So right off the bat regardless of your quote Buddy, TD's will kill a hand. Second, Matt Savage, one of the 4 who would not kill the hand, uses the phrase "anymore". Meaning it used to be a dead and almost all the time. Third, show me in the rules, because you know them so well, that a TD can declare you have 30 second to make a decision without a player calling a clock. Third, I think most TD's will act in what they perceive to be the best interest of the game.
The Mob Verdict
"The standard rule (generally) for this 10 years ago was that it was ok to turn your hand over. Then (generally) it changed to the ruling that the hand was dead. Now, as you can see, it can vary greatly from country to country and card room to card room. One thing that we are all in agreement with is that the player should be penalized in one way or another. Matt and Thomas give a time penalty. We assume that this would increase for serial repeaters. Jack interestingly only give the time penalty if he calls and we’re not sure we agree with that."
Having said all this, if going into a tournament where I have not played, I ask this question before play begins.
An exposed hand should never be ruled dead. A good TD (NOT Fallsview's TD) such as Matt Savage will use his professional judgement to decide if or what penalty to impose AFTER the hand.
In my opinion, I felt that his ruling directly affected the hand. The guy decided to call with his A 7 offsuit thinking he had at least one over card. If I was allowed to show one of my cards and show a Jack, he would have folded believing I was holding a pair or we were both playing Aces and he was out kicked.
Prophet22
I don't see how this follows. If he thought he had an overcard and thought you were weak, then he would have just as easily put you on KJ, QJ, J10.
Without seeing any of your cards, if he is going to stick it in at best a 55% favourite, then he is not folding regardless unless you can show an A.
If you knew he had A rag then in all your wildest dreams you want to find ways to get him to call, not fold.
Finally, you can't put him all in, but I guess you could go all in. ???
For everybody's continuing education, including myself, the TDA rule is:
Once a reasonable amount of time passes and a clock is called for, a player will be given up to 50 seconds to make a decision. If action is not taken before time expires, there will be a 10-second countdown. If the player has not acted by the end of the countdown, the hand is dead. A tie goes to the player. At TDs discretion, the time allowed under this rule may be reduced.
I think that for all future tournament BAPs, the player must read the governing rules (e.g., TDA for WPT, WSOP & EPT events) so that they won't be victimized by a bad casino or TD (like you know where).
Third, show me in the rules, because you know them so well, that a TD can declare you have 30 second to make a decision without a player calling a clock.
For everybody's continuing education, including myself, the TDA rule is:
Once a reasonable amount of time passes and a clock is called for, a player will be given up to 50 seconds to make a decision. If action is not taken before time expires, there will be a 10-second countdown. If the player has not acted by the end of the countdown, the hand is dead. A tie goes to the player. At TDs discretion, the time allowed under this rule may be reduced.
I think that for all future tournament BAPs, the player must read the governing rules (e.g., TDA for WPT, WSOP & EPT events) so that they won't be victimized by a bad casino or TD (like you know where).
I know the rule. I am asking you to show me in the TDA rules that you seem to know so well where it says if you expose your cards you only have 30 seconds to make a decision. I don't see it. I think the TD made it up on the spot. The rule you quoted applies only once a clock has been called.
I think the point here is TD's are human and will make mistakes. It can be frustrating at times but that is life and we live and learn.
The thing with a form like this sometimes it can be hard to explain thoughts fully. I am in Halifax helping my brother renovate his kitchen when I saw this post on a break and thought I'd relayed what happened to me real quick. After reading the responses I felt the need to respond to clarify the situation.
Comments
I think the majority of your posts add no value.
So it comes down to semantics?
Ruling 1) The Prophet 22 asked "that is a fold correct?" and the answer is No.
Ruling 2) The Prophet 22 asked "am I allowed to show?" and the answer is No.
If Prophet had instead asked "if I show too is that a fold?" the answer would be No. Correct?
This hand happened around 2007 I believe I could look it up if needed.
I believe tournament play and rules were an evolving process at the time. The first couple of years running Westside, it was a dead hand intentional or unintentional. Then we changed to the way Buddy has described it.
Exposing Your Hand - Poker Hendon Mob
Notice, two of the 6 TD's say the had is dead. So right off the bat regardless of your quote Buddy, TD's will kill a hand. Second, Matt Savage, one of the 4 who would not kill the hand, uses the phrase "anymore". Meaning it used to be a dead and almost all the time. Third, show me in the rules, because you know them so well, that a TD can declare you have 30 second to make a decision without a player calling a clock. Third, I think most TD's will act in what they perceive to be the best interest of the game.
The Mob Verdict
"The standard rule (generally) for this 10 years ago was that it was ok to turn your hand over. Then (generally) it changed to the ruling that the hand was dead. Now, as you can see, it can vary greatly from country to country and card room to card room. One thing that we are all in agreement with is that the player should be penalized in one way or another. Matt and Thomas give a time penalty. We assume that this would increase for serial repeaters. Jack interestingly only give the time penalty if he calls and we’re not sure we agree with that."
Having said all this, if going into a tournament where I have not played, I ask this question before play begins.
I don't see how this follows. If he thought he had an overcard and thought you were weak, then he would have just as easily put you on KJ, QJ, J10.
Without seeing any of your cards, if he is going to stick it in at best a 55% favourite, then he is not folding regardless unless you can show an A.
If you knew he had A rag then in all your wildest dreams you want to find ways to get him to call, not fold.
Finally, you can't put him all in, but I guess you could go all in. ???
Once a reasonable amount of time passes and a clock is called for, a player will be given up to 50 seconds to make a decision. If action is not taken before time expires, there will be a 10-second countdown. If the player has not acted by the end of the countdown, the hand is dead. A tie goes to the player. At TDs discretion, the time allowed under this rule may be reduced.
I think that for all future tournament BAPs, the player must read the governing rules (e.g., TDA for WPT, WSOP & EPT events) so that they won't be victimized by a bad casino or TD (like you know where).
I seem to always lose races when an Ace is involved. The point of the story was I felt I should have been given the same opportunity and wasn't.
I know the rule. I am asking you to show me in the TDA rules that you seem to know so well where it says if you expose your cards you only have 30 seconds to make a decision. I don't see it. I think the TD made it up on the spot. The rule you quoted applies only once a clock has been called.
I think the point here is TD's are human and will make mistakes. It can be frustrating at times but that is life and we live and learn.
Prophet22
Switching from boxers to briefs will fix that.
Ace rag vs JJ
[ ] Race
[x] Not Race