when aces get cracked by 87 off, when someone hits a 2 outer on the river, set over set, thats poker...but things that a human being can control like manners,and snobbery is not poker...........BTW, in the few instances that im involved in chopping, i always decline..........but paying a few bucks out of pocket to a bubble yes. ...no matter what you guys say....:biggrin2:
sure, no one is advocating being a dick at the tables!... just saying that politely declining to pay a stranger's bubble prize should not be considered bad manners or snobbery. It also won't put a curse on you that causes you to bust out next!
when aces get cracked by 87 off, when someone hits a 2 outer on the river, set over set, thats poker...but things that a human being can control like manners,and snobbery is not poker...........BTW, in the few instances that im involved in chopping, i always decline..........but paying a few bucks out of pocket to a bubble yes. ...no matter what you guys say....:biggrin2:
Choosing to pay or not pay the bubble is not about manners or "snobbery". What part of poker etiquette says that I have to give up some of my skill edge because the other people are afraid of not cashing?
Much poorer etiquette is getting upset with someone for wanting to play the tournament the way it was meant to be played.
Unless it's +EV, politely decline a bubble donation, even if my grandmother has the shortest stack!
So to the forumer friend of mine who told me to "forget EV" as he solicited cash on the bubble, from now on, I will protest then say sorry for daring to maximize EV in poker.
Choosing to pay or not pay the bubble is not about manners or "snobbery". What part of poker etiquette says that I have to give up some of my skill edge because the other people are afraid of not cashing?
Much poorer etiquette is getting upset with someone for wanting to play the tournament the way it was meant to be played.
the snobbery i was referring to was specifically at the condescension revolving around the lower buy ins at Brantford..reread my original post;)
My take on this is only from my experience around smaller local tournaments, can't imagine it ever taking place in bigger casino tournaments. I have no issue either ev wise or good/bad manners. I won't suggest a bubble prize, no matter where I am in the standings but neither will I refuse if asked. I simply won't be "that" guy who won't agree. If all others want it I will agree, it has nothing to do with karma... I don't believe in such.
Now would I agree to chops? That one depends on so many factors that it would be an individual decision.
Like others have said, it is a huge advantage for a big stack to chip up while on or near the bubble. If I'm in that position in a casino tournament where I'm not playing with friends/aquaintances, no way to bubble agreement.
Having a bubble prize does not have to be a unanimous decision.
Any agreement that excludes one or more active players is considered improper, but if that chip leader does not mind the other players donating to the bubble boy, they can still do so. For some reason, the shortest stacks usually give up as soon as the chip leader declines to donate.
My take on this is only from my experience around smaller local tournaments, can't imagine it ever taking place in bigger casino tournaments.
As I posted before, it's the other way around! If players get scared in a $80 buy-in that they auto donate money to the bubble boy, it happens even more with bigger tournaments and close to life-changing money at stake. At WPT Fallsview, it was a $5,000 prize OR zero on the super satellite bubble when players that couldn't handle the pressure had desperately wanted to have a bubble boy prize. At the WSOP Main Event Mega Satellite, I think it was millionaire pro Scott Clements who was threatened to be thrown out for collecting money from whomever was scared enough to donate to his bubble boy prize. At the Canadian Poker Tour Championship with ~$5,000 buy-in, I remember forking over a bunch of cash for the bubble boy, who turned out to be WSOP multiple bracelet winner Dan Idema.
it happens even more with bigger tournaments and close to life-changing money at stake. At WPT Fallsview, it was a $5,000 prize OR zero on the super satellite bubble when players that couldn't handle the pressure had desperately wanted to have a bubble boy prize.
Really, how the heck do you co-ordinate anything like that when there is still 3 or 4 tables to go? Can't imagine 30-40 people ever agreeing. When you are all at the same table I can understand but 3 or 4 tables?
I do recall a tournament I played at Borgata a few years ago that I think paid 14 or so, we were down to the bubble, 2 tables left and there was some discussion but no time to co-ordinate between 2 tables. That was a $300. tournament I think.
As pkrfce9 mentioned, the 5 tables or 44 players did not have to unanimously agree. One way to do it would be to collect the cash and write down the name of each player committing to donating to the bubble boy. I think the Fallsview TD quickly shot down any talk, even though there is no TDA/AGCO rule against TALKING about deals A.FAIK. :bs: Contrary to all previous WPT Fallsview satellites, we were all forbidden this year from discussing a deal in the poker room; Fallsview cost me $2K as all 3 players wanted to chop during Bingo time, but the supervisor forced us to keep playing Bingo instead.
At the much better managed WPT Montreal at Playground Poker Club, there was a 19-way chop in the Survivor event! I was eliminated a couple of places earlier when everybody's M was low, but I don't think I would have donated any of the prize pool 19-ways unless I was one of the shortest stacks. Gotta love live donkaments with so many players that don't understand OR don't care about $EV! :h:
There is a great story about this from my most recenttrip to Vegas.
Its funny that otherwise rational people get so infuriated at people for not chopping and / or donating to the bubble.
My exact words were - "would you ask me to light $20 on fire?", which they fully cant comprehend.
Then, I auto tilted the table when they proclaimed that there is no skill in live 10bb poker and I disagreed. I obviously couldnt explain to them why at the time.
There is a great story about this from my most recenttrip to Vegas.
Its funny that otherwise rational people get so infuriated at people for not chopping and / or donating to the bubble.
My exact words were - "would you ask me to light $20 on fire?", which they fully cant comprehend.
Then, I auto tilted the table when they proclaimed that there is no skill in live 10bb poker and I disagreed. I obviously couldnt explain to them why at the time.
I think everything is relative. I travel an hour for a tournament top 3 paid with 3rd getting 175.00 and 4th getting a free entry to the next tournament. There were 4 of us left and after battling it out for a level I asked for a break and it was agreed. The top two guys had us dominated so I went to the guy that I was close with in chips and said "do you want to agree to split the 3rd place money and the person who finishes higher will also get the free entry to the next tournament. Any money won beyond the third place money is kept by the the winner. " He agreed and thought it was better to walk out with something for your time than just an entry to the next tournament. Needless to say, I feel there is a sense of freedom when you have "nothing to lose". Now maybe I still would have won the tournament who knows. But to this day I stand by what I did.
Yes we made a deal. We didn't involve the others because of there chip stacks. Once we made the deal, I doubled up through one of the two big stacks, then took out the guy I made the deal with guaranteeing him 87.50 and I got the free 60.00 tournament plus anything else I won. An hour after our deal I had won the tournament. I think it was fair for both parties because you got a little cash for your efforts valued a little more than the tournament entry fee. We did tell the TD and he was ok with it but it wasn't a big announcement to the other guys that were left.
when aces get cracked by 87 off, when someone hits a 2 outer on the river, set over set, thats poker...but things that a human being can control like manners,and snobbery is not poker...........BTW, in the few instances that im involved in chopping, i always decline..........but paying a few bucks out of pocket to a bubble yes. ...no matter what you guys say....:biggrin2:
I agree all players should show class and manners no need to insult players as the game is supposed to be enjoyable but in the end it is for money and that is the prize. You pay the casino, tip the dealers, the waitress, and pay a bubble...
Where is that money coming from? 1st place? 10th? or evenly split...
I think you shouldn't give away your prize money you earned it.
In the future, please do not make such two-way deals without the consent of all the other players. Per the International Poker Rules,
Any agreement that excludes one or more active competitors, or is made without the Tournament Director’s knowledge, is considered improper.
By definition it may be judged as collusion, and can or may be deemed as grounds for disqualification.
The same thing has happened to me in tournaments such as Brantford & Woodbine. I had to protest to the two short stacks that a deal between just the two of them would be highly inappropriate. Unfortunately, the supervisor at that time was clueless that it was collusion, and I had to negotiate a four-way deal so that the two short stacks would not effectively play as a team.
I think everything is relative. I travel an hour for a tournament top 3 paid with 3rd getting 175.00 and 4th getting a free entry to the next tournament. There were 4 of us left and after battling it out for a level I asked for a break and it was agreed. The top two guys had us dominated so I went to the guy that I was close with in chips and said "do you want to agree to split the 3rd place money and the person who finishes higher will also get the free entry to the next tournament. Any money won beyond the third place money is kept by the the winner. " He agreed and thought it was better to walk out with something for your time than just an entry to the next tournament.
Collusion. Cheating. Plain and simple.
I would argue that any time a deal is struck between some, but not all, of the players they become incentivized to soft-play each other.
Needless to say, I feel there is a sense of freedom when you have "nothing to lose".
Exactly. This gets to the heart of why players want to pay the bubble.
However, by going behind the backs of the big stacks and the TD, you and the other short stack effectively stole this sense of freedom. You did not earn it. Nor were you entitled to it simply because you had the disadvantage of being a short stack at the time.
He's bet a bit more than a min raise but it's about half his stack so it's the same as all in pretty much.
You'd be surprised to here that this isn't always the case, especially in a $80 tourney.
I've seen many players bet 1/2 their stack, then fold to a jam thinking that I have to have AA or KK to do that.
This obviously doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Anyhow, with the number of BB's in play here, I'm assuming villain has around 13bb..........which you should fold AK to exactly zero percent of the time.......so, ez shove
yeah, that bubble pay talk is pretty much everywhere in tourney poker, with the only exception being larger events that pay 50+ people (but only cuz they're too hard to organize I imagine)
Let's not beat on Prophet too bad, but that is definately collusion, and should not be allowed.
Curious, did the other two know about the deal you guys made?
In my early poker days, I did something similar.....9 left, 8 pay....me and the guy beside me were extreme shorty's....we said that whoever gets bubbled, the other guy will pay half of 8th spot.
Now, as it turns out, we finished 9th and 8th....so it didn't hurt the outcome of the tourney, but it could have.
I didn't think at the time how it could be cheating....but I was a noob
Unfortunately, a lot of casino employees don't know proper poker rules; Exhibit 1: WPT Fallsview.
When the two shorties in the Brantford 4-handed final table started talking about improperly chopping between just the two of them, the so-called "TD" who happened to be duty on that time could hear the collusion but was too clueless to do anything. I pointed out that it was inappropriate, but there was still a blank look on the face of the supervisor.
Per TDA Rule #2, we as players have responsibilities too, which include:
speak up if they see a mistake being made, know and comply with the rules, and follow proper etiquette.
I appreciate g2 sending me a private pm about his post. I am a big boy and can take it otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.
This happened at a tournament in Toronto. AcidJoe was there for sure and I think pkrfce9 was also there if memory serves me correct. It happened in 2004-2005 when I first starting playing.
Now having said that, I remember the asking for the break specifically to talk to the guy and talking to the guy running the tournament. At that point (in my opinion) he (the TD) is the one who has the obligation to tell the players after the break was over that that a deal had been made by two of the four players that they had agreed to split 3rd place money. To be honest I expected him to do so but he didn't. So I didn't feel obligated to tell, neither did the other guy because he didn't speak up either, and he was a complete stranger (not that it makes a difference).
I felt I met the requirements because I/we told the TD. It is actually the only time I have ever done something like that. The last thing I would ever want to be called is a cheater at a poker game. I had only met the TD once before so it wasn't like he was helping me/us out. He made a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time a TD made a mistake. Thinking back now all these years later I see that I should have said something.
I was in a tournament in Kitchener/Waterloo area and built up a sizable stack. It is folded around to me and I wake up in the SB with wired Jacks and have a guy to my left, a well known player among the KW group and specifically playing me heads up. I think how can I play this. I do a small raise hoping to get re-raised which happens. Back to me and I re-raises. He re-raises and I decide to put him all in. He thinks about it for a minute and then he intentionally proceeds to flip a card (Ad) over looking for my reaction. I ask the TD who was dealing and playing at the table we were at "that is a fold correct?" totally believing the pot was now mine. (If i knew it wasn't a fold I never would have said anything.) The TD quickly informed that it was not a fold. I then said "well if he is allowed to turn a card over can I at least turn over one of my cards?" (I wanted him to fold at this point after all the discussion that was happening I felt he thought I was weak and maybe he believed he had two over cards and if he could see one of my jacks he would fold thinking he was down to three outs. I knew he had an Ace with a rag.) And was given a firm NO. After I was told NO it was not a fold and I could not turn over a card, the player decided to call.
Before the flop was even dealt I verbal expressed that I thought both his rulings were wrong 1) the guy wasn't required to fold after intentionally showing a card during tournament play 2) once he allowed one card to be turned over I should have been given the same curiosity and his rulings were intentionally biased against me.
In my opinion, I felt that his ruling directly affected the hand. The guy decided to call with his A 7 offsuit thinking he had at least one over card. If I was allowed to show one of my cards and show a Jack, he would have folded believing I was holding a pair or we were both playing Aces and he was out kicked.
To this day I believe the TD was wrong, what I don't know if it was intentional or not. But I have to believe he was not out to get me. Only he knows for sure.
I think it is nearly 100% that intentionally showing cards in a tournament is an automatic fold unless other wised announced at the start of a tournament.
I was able to regain my composure and finished 3rd.
The point is TD's make mistakes. As players we have to believe that they (TD) are not making decisions to intentionally hurting specific people. I don't believe that was the case in either of these places because I have played at both of them since then.
Had this last sentence been excluded it absolutely would have been. It is the Tds responsibility to inform other players of swapping deals.
It is the players responsibility to inform the TD.
Assuming the above is correct, I apologize for the allegation of cheating. Given this new information it would appear that The Prophet 22 acted within the rules.
That being said, I still think it is poor etiquette to make any deal affecting payouts without the knowledge and consent of all players. I will admit that the way Prophet structured the deal he minimized the incentive for the two short stacks to work together.
It happened in 2004-2005 when I first starting playing.
This makes a lot more sense now. Writing earlier I could only assume this was a situation that happened more recently (after years of experience as a TD yourself).
At that point (in my opinion) he (the TD) is the one who has the obligation to tell the players after the break was over that that a deal had been made by two of the four players that they had agreed to split 3rd place money. To be honest I expected him to do so but he didn't. So I didn't feel obligated to tell, neither did the other guy because he didn't speak up either, and he was a complete stranger (not that it makes a difference).
I felt I met the requirements because I/we told the TD. It is actually the only time I have ever done something like that. The last thing I would ever want to be called is a cheater at a poker game. I had only met the TD once before so it wasn't like he was helping me/us out. He made a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time a TD made a mistake. Thinking back now all these years later I see that I should have said something.
Given these details, it is clear to me you were not at fault, the TD was. I apologize. And some fault is my own for not knowing the rules better. Thanks Wetts!
Comments
sure, no one is advocating being a dick at the tables!... just saying that politely declining to pay a stranger's bubble prize should not be considered bad manners or snobbery. It also won't put a curse on you that causes you to bust out next!
Choosing to pay or not pay the bubble is not about manners or "snobbery". What part of poker etiquette says that I have to give up some of my skill edge because the other people are afraid of not cashing?
Much poorer etiquette is getting upset with someone for wanting to play the tournament the way it was meant to be played.
Unless it's +EV, politely decline a bubble donation, even if my grandmother has the shortest stack!
So to the forumer friend of mine who told me to "forget EV" as he solicited cash on the bubble, from now on, I will protest then say sorry for daring to maximize EV in poker.
Now would I agree to chops? That one depends on so many factors that it would be an individual decision.
Like others have said, it is a huge advantage for a big stack to chip up while on or near the bubble. If I'm in that position in a casino tournament where I'm not playing with friends/aquaintances, no way to bubble agreement.
tapatalk puts this here to annoy YOU
As I posted before, it's the other way around! If players get scared in a $80 buy-in that they auto donate money to the bubble boy, it happens even more with bigger tournaments and close to life-changing money at stake. At WPT Fallsview, it was a $5,000 prize OR zero on the super satellite bubble when players that couldn't handle the pressure had desperately wanted to have a bubble boy prize. At the WSOP Main Event Mega Satellite, I think it was millionaire pro Scott Clements who was threatened to be thrown out for collecting money from whomever was scared enough to donate to his bubble boy prize. At the Canadian Poker Tour Championship with ~$5,000 buy-in, I remember forking over a bunch of cash for the bubble boy, who turned out to be WSOP multiple bracelet winner Dan Idema.
Really, how the heck do you co-ordinate anything like that when there is still 3 or 4 tables to go? Can't imagine 30-40 people ever agreeing. When you are all at the same table I can understand but 3 or 4 tables?
I do recall a tournament I played at Borgata a few years ago that I think paid 14 or so, we were down to the bubble, 2 tables left and there was some discussion but no time to co-ordinate between 2 tables. That was a $300. tournament I think.
At the much better managed WPT Montreal at Playground Poker Club, there was a 19-way chop in the Survivor event! I was eliminated a couple of places earlier when everybody's M was low, but I don't think I would have donated any of the prize pool 19-ways unless I was one of the shortest stacks. Gotta love live donkaments with so many players that don't understand OR don't care about $EV! :h:
Its funny that otherwise rational people get so infuriated at people for not chopping and / or donating to the bubble.
My exact words were - "would you ask me to light $20 on fire?", which they fully cant comprehend.
Then, I auto tilted the table when they proclaimed that there is no skill in live 10bb poker and I disagreed. I obviously couldnt explain to them why at the time.
Did you bubble?
tapatalk puts this here to annoy YOU
Yes we made a deal. We didn't involve the others because of there chip stacks. Once we made the deal, I doubled up through one of the two big stacks, then took out the guy I made the deal with guaranteeing him 87.50 and I got the free 60.00 tournament plus anything else I won. An hour after our deal I had won the tournament. I think it was fair for both parties because you got a little cash for your efforts valued a little more than the tournament entry fee. We did tell the TD and he was ok with it but it wasn't a big announcement to the other guys that were left.
I agree all players should show class and manners no need to insult players as the game is supposed to be enjoyable but in the end it is for money and that is the prize. You pay the casino, tip the dealers, the waitress, and pay a bubble...
Where is that money coming from? 1st place? 10th? or evenly split...
I think you shouldn't give away your prize money you earned it.
Chopping is completely different though.. I do get a nice laugh when you have a couple people think that all chops = money distributed evenly.
The same thing has happened to me in tournaments such as Brantford & Woodbine. I had to protest to the two short stacks that a deal between just the two of them would be highly inappropriate. Unfortunately, the supervisor at that time was clueless that it was collusion, and I had to negotiate a four-way deal so that the two short stacks would not effectively play as a team.
Collusion. Cheating. Plain and simple.
I would argue that any time a deal is struck between some, but not all, of the players they become incentivized to soft-play each other.
Exactly. This gets to the heart of why players want to pay the bubble.
However, by going behind the backs of the big stacks and the TD, you and the other short stack effectively stole this sense of freedom. You did not earn it. Nor were you entitled to it simply because you had the disadvantage of being a short stack at the time.
It seems to me you think the results somehow justify the collusion.
I would be happy to discuss this with you in person at Buzzzardd's on Saturday. But I stand by this post.
You'd be surprised to here that this isn't always the case, especially in a $80 tourney.
I've seen many players bet 1/2 their stack, then fold to a jam thinking that I have to have AA or KK to do that.
This obviously doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
Anyhow, with the number of BB's in play here, I'm assuming villain has around 13bb..........which you should fold AK to exactly zero percent of the time.......so, ez shove
yeah, that bubble pay talk is pretty much everywhere in tourney poker, with the only exception being larger events that pay 50+ people (but only cuz they're too hard to organize I imagine)
and welcome to MTT.....lmk when u bap
Curious, did the other two know about the deal you guys made?
In my early poker days, I did something similar.....9 left, 8 pay....me and the guy beside me were extreme shorty's....we said that whoever gets bubbled, the other guy will pay half of 8th spot.
Now, as it turns out, we finished 9th and 8th....so it didn't hurt the outcome of the tourney, but it could have.
I didn't think at the time how it could be cheating....but I was a noob
Um, this is not collusion.
Had this last sentence been excluded it absolutely would have been. It is the Tds responsibility to inform other players of swapping deals.
It is the players responsibility to inform the TD.
When the two shorties in the Brantford 4-handed final table started talking about improperly chopping between just the two of them, the so-called "TD" who happened to be duty on that time could hear the collusion but was too clueless to do anything. I pointed out that it was inappropriate, but there was still a blank look on the face of the supervisor.
Per TDA Rule #2, we as players have responsibilities too, which include:
speak up if they see a mistake being made, know and comply with the rules, and follow proper etiquette.
This happened at a tournament in Toronto. AcidJoe was there for sure and I think pkrfce9 was also there if memory serves me correct. It happened in 2004-2005 when I first starting playing.
Now having said that, I remember the asking for the break specifically to talk to the guy and talking to the guy running the tournament. At that point (in my opinion) he (the TD) is the one who has the obligation to tell the players after the break was over that that a deal had been made by two of the four players that they had agreed to split 3rd place money. To be honest I expected him to do so but he didn't. So I didn't feel obligated to tell, neither did the other guy because he didn't speak up either, and he was a complete stranger (not that it makes a difference).
I felt I met the requirements because I/we told the TD. It is actually the only time I have ever done something like that. The last thing I would ever want to be called is a cheater at a poker game. I had only met the TD once before so it wasn't like he was helping me/us out. He made a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time a TD made a mistake. Thinking back now all these years later I see that I should have said something.
I was in a tournament in Kitchener/Waterloo area and built up a sizable stack. It is folded around to me and I wake up in the SB with wired Jacks and have a guy to my left, a well known player among the KW group and specifically playing me heads up. I think how can I play this. I do a small raise hoping to get re-raised which happens. Back to me and I re-raises. He re-raises and I decide to put him all in. He thinks about it for a minute and then he intentionally proceeds to flip a card (Ad) over looking for my reaction. I ask the TD who was dealing and playing at the table we were at "that is a fold correct?" totally believing the pot was now mine. (If i knew it wasn't a fold I never would have said anything.) The TD quickly informed that it was not a fold. I then said "well if he is allowed to turn a card over can I at least turn over one of my cards?" (I wanted him to fold at this point after all the discussion that was happening I felt he thought I was weak and maybe he believed he had two over cards and if he could see one of my jacks he would fold thinking he was down to three outs. I knew he had an Ace with a rag.) And was given a firm NO. After I was told NO it was not a fold and I could not turn over a card, the player decided to call.
Before the flop was even dealt I verbal expressed that I thought both his rulings were wrong 1) the guy wasn't required to fold after intentionally showing a card during tournament play 2) once he allowed one card to be turned over I should have been given the same curiosity and his rulings were intentionally biased against me.
In my opinion, I felt that his ruling directly affected the hand. The guy decided to call with his A 7 offsuit thinking he had at least one over card. If I was allowed to show one of my cards and show a Jack, he would have folded believing I was holding a pair or we were both playing Aces and he was out kicked.
To this day I believe the TD was wrong, what I don't know if it was intentional or not. But I have to believe he was not out to get me. Only he knows for sure.
I think it is nearly 100% that intentionally showing cards in a tournament is an automatic fold unless other wised announced at the start of a tournament.
I was able to regain my composure and finished 3rd.
The point is TD's make mistakes. As players we have to believe that they (TD) are not making decisions to intentionally hurting specific people. I don't believe that was the case in either of these places because I have played at both of them since then.
Prophet22
Assuming the above is correct, I apologize for the allegation of cheating. Given this new information it would appear that The Prophet 22 acted within the rules.
That being said, I still think it is poor etiquette to make any deal affecting payouts without the knowledge and consent of all players. I will admit that the way Prophet structured the deal he minimized the incentive for the two short stacks to work together.
I greatly respect that characteristic of yours. Which is why I posted my concerns publicly, instead of resorting to a private message.
This makes a lot more sense now. Writing earlier I could only assume this was a situation that happened more recently (after years of experience as a TD yourself).
Given these details, it is clear to me you were not at fault, the TD was. I apologize. And some fault is my own for not knowing the rules better. Thanks Wetts!