Well, this pretty much went to shit right quick. To Kristy, yes, I am a vegan. Now, I will agree with Milo on the fact that a lot of "evidence" that is given from either end is obviously going to be more biased towards their own point of view. And while it is biased, there is no denying that factory farms and the destruction of rainforests to raise cattle for food is having a dangerous effect on this planet. Even if people were to reduce their consumption of meat from every night to just a few nights/week, it would have a much more positive impact. Obviously I would prefer everyone to cut it out completely, but in the end it is ultimately the individuals choice to what they want to do.
I love how you just keep ignoring the parts of my posts that you can't defend against.
Sleep well.
I did, thanks. As for ignoring certain points, I'm not. I am merely refusing to engage in a debate where neither of us is going to budge from our entrenched positions. In a sense, I am pleading no contest. I would rather debate things where I, or my opponent may change their view based on rational argument. That will not happen here, based on past discussion, so I choose not to engage. Sorry, but I am off to work now . . .
Derrick, does freedom of choice include the livestock owners who wish to pursue larger profits, even if it means clearing rain forest to do so? Just curious how far you're willing to extend the "right to choose".
I did, thanks. As for ignoring certain points, I'm not. I am merely refusing to engage in a debate where neither of us is going to budge from our entrenched positions. In a sense, I am pleading no contest. I would rather debate things where I, or my opponent may change their view based on rational argument. That will not happen here, based on past discussion, so I choose not to engage. Sorry, but I am off to work now . . .
Derrick, does freedom of choice include the livestock owners who wish to pursue larger profits, even if it means clearing rain forest to do so? Just curious how far you're willing to extend the "right to choose".
*Sigh* Milo you are not presenting a rational counter. Truly. Not at all. Not for a second. At no point was this a 'debate'; you are making a choice that is bad for yourself and the environment. That is fact. If you feel that info is biased (and clearly it is) then you owe it to your children to find a source that you can get behind..but the end result is the same. Cutting out our methane producing middlemen and eating their fodder is good for everyone. (we'll go on to the other animals and the amount of land/water/other resources used to get them to your table another time.)
I can't reply for Derrick obv; but I can speak to my own use of the 'freedom of choice' I'd have thought this was pretty obvious, but just the same as I can't stop you from smoking, (or you me) nor can I stop you from driving an SUV to the corner store that you buy your vitamins from, or from throwing a tire on the barby and inhaling the fumes....I can't stop you from eating meat.
It doesn't make your decision any less stupid, though it is yours to make. I'd just like you to at least have the accountability and intelligence not to baldly say to me: "I'm supposed to eat meat" You are not, it is shortening the lifespans of both yourself and the planet. Own it.
Imagine if a smoker walked up to you and said: "This is good for me, humans have been doing it for thousands of years, it is the way it is supposed to be, and it is good for me, despite the claims that it knocks 10 years off of my life"
Your decision to eat meat is even more ridiculous than that, as it involves massive misuse of other global resources.
*Sigh* Milo you are not presenting a rational counter. Truly. Not at all. Not for a second. At no point was this a 'debate'; you are making a choice that is bad for yourself and the environment. That is fact.
No, that is belief. Not everyone agrees with it.
If you feel that info is biased (and clearly it is) then you owe it to your children to find a source that you can get behind..but the end result is the same. Cutting out our methane producing middlemen and eating their fodder is good for everyone. (we'll go on to the other animals and the amount of land/water/other resources used to get them to your table another time.)
A better use of our time would be tackling the pollution that results from factory farming livestock. Please note that I am not referring to cow farts.
I can't reply for Derrick obv; but I can speak to my own use of the 'freedom of choice' I'd have thought this was pretty obvious, but just the same as I can't stop you from smoking, (or you me) nor can I stop you from driving an SUV to the corner store that you buy your vitamins from, or from throwing a tire on the barby and inhaling the fumes....I can't stop you from eating meat.
But, if you could, would you? The nub of these arguments is control of people's lives, which I believe should rest with the individual, rather than the State. If you convince enough people to go Vegan, so be it.
It doesn't make your decision any less stupid, though it is yours to make. I'd just like you to at least have the accountability and intelligence not to baldly say to me: "I'm supposed to eat meat" You are not, it is shortening the lifespans of both yourself and the planet. Own it.
Again, theory. There are plenty of studies to show the Vegan lifestyle is less healthy than a balanced diet that includes meat. We are arguing in circles. I'm just getting off first (so to speak).
Imagine if a smoker walked up to you and said: "This is good for me, humans have been doing it for thousands of years, it is the way it is supposed to be, and it is good for me, despite the claims that it knocks 10 years off of my life"
Cigarettes have been proven carcinogens. However, many of the follow-on results are somewhat dubious (ie 2nd hand smoke, etc.).
Your decision to eat meat is even more ridiculous than that, as it involves massive misuse of other global resources.
Okay, some of that was badly done, so lets try again:
You can post all the studies you wish about the benefits of a meatless diet, and there are an equal number on my side, so that is a "push".
It is presumptuous and arrogant for someone sitting in the relative affluence of Ontario (or wherever) to tell foreign landowners how best to allocate their resources.
It is the essence of liberty that a person be able to decide for themselves what to put in their bodies, and what to do with their personal property. It is why I do not support the War on Drugs, and why I find our governments policies with regard to tobacco to be ludicrous. It is also why I object to certain land use restrictions in my hometown, but that is not relevant, here.
I am not a total Randian, per se, but I believe that the less government intrudes on my life, the better off I will be. There seem to be an inordinate number of people on your side of this argument who think differently.
Seriously, your posts on this topic are borderline-retarded. I'll just hope that my belief that you're intelligent enough to stew on this and realize that later... if not.
Die early and do your part to ruin the planet.
I care, but I can't stop you from being dumb and wrong.
If you could force people to stop eating meat, would you?
If you could forcibly close factory farms, would you?
Your honest answer is what I am after . . .
As for dying early, I will expire whenever it is my time to do so, no more or less than that. Until then, I will enjoy my life as I see fit.
If I had the power/influence to do so, then yes, I would. To both. As I feel the benefits to living a meat-free life far outweigh those of a meat eaters. And really, nothing good comes from the factory farming industry.
As for dying early, I will expire whenever it is my time to do so, no more or less than that. Until then, I will enjoy my life as I see fit.
ffs, srsly..how are you this stupid? You aren't running around slopping drunk fucking whores with no protection refusing to look before stepping into traffic.
You take steps to protect your own life, and to the second part..the fact that you have a recycling bin and a daughter you claim to love means I'm right.
I'm not kidding your 'points' are so unbelievably absurd, illogical and beneath you- that I now believe that you must only be trolling, or have sustained recent head trauma.
Derrick:h:, fffuuuuuuuuuuuuu for posting again. I wanted to read sense from you..and got pulled back into this ridiculous.
If you could stop people from smoking crack would you?
Nope, so long as they break no laws to do so. Drug use should not be a crime.If you could forcibly close puppy mills or Walmart's overseas operations that misuse workers, would you?
There are laws in place. Enforce them.ffs, srsly..how are you this stupid? You aren't running around slopping drunk fucking whores with no protection refusing to look before stepping into traffic.
You take steps to protect your own life, and to the second part..the fact that you have a recycling bin and a daughter you claim to love means I'm right.
I'm not kidding your 'points' are so unbelievably absurd, illogical and beneath you- that I now believe that you must only be trolling, or have sustained recent head trauma.
Derrick:h:, fffuuuuuuuuuuuuu for posting again. I wanted to read sense from you..and got pulled back into this ridiculous.
I answered the relevant points. May I assume your answer is yes, then?
95 minutes? Pass . . . three minutes was enough to confirm my suspicions.
"The suffering of any species is equivalent to another". So human suffering is equivalent to the suffering of, say, a bass being reeled into a boat? An MS sufferers pain is equivalent to a bull in Pamplona? Sorry, FAIL.
I understead both sides of this debate, but ppls lifestyle choices shouldnt be up for debate. Its like hating ppl for being gay. It may not be right to some ppl, but its not something that can change, much like Milo experienced with giving up meat.
Kristy, Im disapointed in you.. just because someone disagrees with you, you fly off the handle... some of the rebutle's by you were in bad taste I feel, then again, Im the master of that, so it shouldnt matter.
and Milo, you are just stirring the pot now lol.
All of this is being typed as I munch on venison jerkey and pepperettes, so you know where I stand, however I respect and understand the points being brought to my attention.
I would like to be the first to apologize to Kristy, and to Derrick. Reading fedh8er's post has been a revelation.
I was wrong. More than that, I was insensitive to the point of view of others, and for that I apologize, as well. I will endeavour in the future to be a better person, and I hope that, in time, I can regain the trust and faith that many of you have displayed in me through my years here at CPF.
I would like to be the first to apologize to Kristy, and to Derrick. Reading fedh8er's post has been a revelation.
I was wrong. More than that, I was insensitive to the point of view of others, and for that I apologize, as well. I will endeavour in the future to be a better person, and I hope that, in time, I can regain the trust and faith that many of you have displayed in me through my years here at CPF.
Thank you.
Once again . . . very sorry.
Trust me, I am the best poker player that there ever was, has been or ever will be, same goes for being a realist.
I understead both sides of this debate, but ppls lifestyle choices shouldnt be up for debate. Its like hating ppl for being gay. It may not be right to some ppl, but its not something that can change, much like Milo experienced with giving up meat.
Before I use the cool thread term "retarded".....I'll give you a shot. I think I understand what you're trying to say....but try again. There are so many things wrong with the above I don't know where to start. Either you're saying that being gay is a lifestyle choice...or that hating gay people is a lifestyle choice. You then go on to compare either being gay or hating people who are gay to choosing to eat meat. Lifestyle choices ARE up for debate....Like the should you eat meat or not debate that is in this thread. BEING gay is not a lifestyle choice. A gay person choosing to not eat meat = lifestyle choice (but I guess that would mean they're celibate right ;-> ). Either way saying that people can't choose to not eat meat is ....can't think of a better word....retarded.
On a separate note: (and I love meat [and brackets for that matter]) There is no way that anyone can argue that meat production doesn't take up way more resources than plant based alternatives. If no one on earth ate meat.....we'd have huge surplusses of food.
Going out to get some Taco Bell.....(which I guess qualifies as food [in that it provides calories] but I don't think anyone can nail down whether it is meat or not.)
Before I use the cool thread term "retarded".....I'll give you a shot. I think I understand what you're trying to say....but try again. There are so many things wrong with the above I don't know where to start. Either you're saying that being gay is a lifestyle choice...or that hating gay people is a lifestyle choice. You then go on to compare either being gay or hating people who are gay to choosing to eat meat. Lifestyle choices ARE up for debate....Like the should you eat meat or not debate that is in this thread. BEING gay is not a lifestyle choice. A gay person choosing to not eat meat = lifestyle choice (but I guess that would mean they're celibate right ;-> ). Either way saying that people can't choose to not eat meat is ....can't think of a better word....retarded.
On a separate note: (and I love meat [and brackets for that matter]) There is no way that anyone can argue that meat production doesn't take up way more resources than plant based alternatives. If no one on earth ate meat.....we'd have huge surplusses of food.
Going out to get some Taco Bell.....(which I guess qualifies as food [in that it provides calories] but I don't think anyone can nail down whether it is meat or not.)
On a separate note: (and I love meat [and brackets for that matter]) There is no way that anyone can argue that meat production doesn't take up way more resources than plant based alternatives. If no one on earth ate meat.....we'd have huge surplusses of food.
This is all I wanted Milo to acknowledge, I'm glad that you got it.
fedh8er you forget again that most of us know each other irl, it isn't really an anonymous internet argument to us. And I'm not even remotely flying off the handle. You're putting that intonation in because I'm female and thus brutal worded and direct doesn't often come without anger.
I love Milo, I think he knows that; but the shit he was spouting above lacked common sense.
This is all I wanted Milo to acknowledge, I'm glad that you got it.
fedh8er you forget again that most of us know each other irl, it isn't really an anonymous internet argument to us. And I'm not even remotely flying off the handle. You're putting that intonation in because I'm female and thus brutal worded and direct doesn't often come without anger.
I love Milo, I think he knows that; but the shit he was spouting above lacked common sense.
Okay, because you said you love me (and because it is rational), yes, more land and resources are required to produce meat for food than would be needed to produce vegetation for food.
The issue for me is one of choice. You have made the choice to assume a Vegan lifestyle to whatever extent that term means for you. Fine. That is your choice.
I like meat, and do not like the alternatives that currently exist as supplements to it. That is my choice.
The conflict comes when one group of people tries to impose their ideas of right/wrong on another group. Your tone in these discussions is akin to the proverbial reformed smoker: "I quit, so everyone else must follow my shining example, and we will have a better world as a result." The world does not work that way.
There are people out there who honestly see the Vegan lifestyle as a means to bettering the planet, and I will happily put you in that group. There are other people, in various segments of this country, who would happily deny people their ability to choose that which they would deem "bad". These people can go to Hell.
I believe, as I said, that people should be left to live their lives with as little intrusion by the State as possible. I also believe that people should be responsible for their actions. That is why I am not concerned with the possibility that my life may be shortened by my choice to eat meat. I choose to enjoy my life in this way, and am willing to make that trade-off. There are many others who feel the same way. There may come a time when a majority of people feel differently, and then things may change. Until then, I quote #6:
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. I am not a number. I am a free man."
I know, I know, . . . but I've always wanted to use that line
Okay, because you said you love me (and because it is rational), yes, more land and resources are required to produce meat for food than would be needed to produce vegetation for food.
The issue for me is one of choice. You have made the choice to assume a Vegan lifestyle to whatever extent that term means for you. Fine. That is your choice.
I like meat, and do not like the alternatives that currently exist as supplements to it. That is my choice.
The conflict comes when one group of people tries to impose their ideas of right/wrong on another group. Your tone in these discussions is akin to the proverbial reformed smoker: "I quit, so everyone else must follow my shining example, and we will have a better world as a result." The world does not work that way.
There are people out there who honestly see the Vegan lifestyle as a means to bettering the planet, and I will happily put you in that group. There are other people, in various segments of this country, who would happily deny people their ability to choose that which they would deem "bad". These people can go to Hell.
I believe, as I said, that people should be left to live their lives with as little intrusion by the State as possible. I also believe that people should be responsible for their actions. That is why I am not concerned with the possibility that my life may be shortened by my choice to eat meat. I choose to enjoy my life in this way, and am willing to make that trade-off. There are many others who feel the same way. There may come a time when a majority of people feel differently, and then things may change. Until then, I quote #6:
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. I am not a number. I am a free man."
I know, I know, . . . but I've always wanted to use that line
There are people out there who honestly see the Vegan lifestyle as a means to bettering the planet, and I will happily put you in that group. There are other people, in various segments of this country, who would happily deny people their ability to choose that which they would deem "bad". These people can go to Hell.
Comments
I did, thanks. As for ignoring certain points, I'm not. I am merely refusing to engage in a debate where neither of us is going to budge from our entrenched positions. In a sense, I am pleading no contest. I would rather debate things where I, or my opponent may change their view based on rational argument. That will not happen here, based on past discussion, so I choose not to engage. Sorry, but I am off to work now . . .
Derrick, does freedom of choice include the livestock owners who wish to pursue larger profits, even if it means clearing rain forest to do so? Just curious how far you're willing to extend the "right to choose".
*Sigh* Milo you are not presenting a rational counter. Truly. Not at all. Not for a second. At no point was this a 'debate'; you are making a choice that is bad for yourself and the environment. That is fact. If you feel that info is biased (and clearly it is) then you owe it to your children to find a source that you can get behind..but the end result is the same. Cutting out our methane producing middlemen and eating their fodder is good for everyone. (we'll go on to the other animals and the amount of land/water/other resources used to get them to your table another time.)
I can't reply for Derrick obv; but I can speak to my own use of the 'freedom of choice' I'd have thought this was pretty obvious, but just the same as I can't stop you from smoking, (or you me) nor can I stop you from driving an SUV to the corner store that you buy your vitamins from, or from throwing a tire on the barby and inhaling the fumes....I can't stop you from eating meat.
It doesn't make your decision any less stupid, though it is yours to make. I'd just like you to at least have the accountability and intelligence not to baldly say to me: "I'm supposed to eat meat" You are not, it is shortening the lifespans of both yourself and the planet. Own it.
Imagine if a smoker walked up to you and said: "This is good for me, humans have been doing it for thousands of years, it is the way it is supposed to be, and it is good for me, despite the claims that it knocks 10 years off of my life"
Your decision to eat meat is even more ridiculous than that, as it involves massive misuse of other global resources.
See bolded comments
You can post all the studies you wish about the benefits of a meatless diet, and there are an equal number on my side, so that is a "push".
It is presumptuous and arrogant for someone sitting in the relative affluence of Ontario (or wherever) to tell foreign landowners how best to allocate their resources.
It is the essence of liberty that a person be able to decide for themselves what to put in their bodies, and what to do with their personal property. It is why I do not support the War on Drugs, and why I find our governments policies with regard to tobacco to be ludicrous. It is also why I object to certain land use restrictions in my hometown, but that is not relevant, here.
I am not a total Randian, per se, but I believe that the less government intrudes on my life, the better off I will be. There seem to be an inordinate number of people on your side of this argument who think differently.
Seriously, your posts on this topic are borderline-retarded. I'll just hope that my belief that you're intelligent enough to stew on this and realize that later... if not.
Die early and do your part to ruin the planet.
I care, but I can't stop you from being dumb and wrong.
Dead to me
xoxoxoxo
If you could force people to stop eating meat, would you?
If you could forcibly close factory farms, would you?
Your honest answer is what I am after . . .
As for dying early, I will expire whenever it is my time to do so, no more or less than that. Until then, I will enjoy my life as I see fit.
If I had the power/influence to do so, then yes, I would. To both. As I feel the benefits to living a meat-free life far outweigh those of a meat eaters. And really, nothing good comes from the factory farming industry.
If you could stop people from smoking crack would you?
If you could forcibly close puppy mills or Walmart's overseas operations that misuse workers, would you?
ffs, srsly..how are you this stupid? You aren't running around slopping drunk fucking whores with no protection refusing to look before stepping into traffic.
You take steps to protect your own life, and to the second part..the fact that you have a recycling bin and a daughter you claim to love means I'm right.
I'm not kidding your 'points' are so unbelievably absurd, illogical and beneath you- that I now believe that you must only be trolling, or have sustained recent head trauma.
Derrick:h:, fffuuuuuuuuuuuuu for posting again. I wanted to read sense from you..and got pulled back into this ridiculous.
I answered the relevant points. May I assume your answer is yes, then?
Earthlings
"The suffering of any species is equivalent to another". So human suffering is equivalent to the suffering of, say, a bass being reeled into a boat? An MS sufferers pain is equivalent to a bull in Pamplona? Sorry, FAIL.
Humans > > > animals.
I understead both sides of this debate, but ppls lifestyle choices shouldnt be up for debate. Its like hating ppl for being gay. It may not be right to some ppl, but its not something that can change, much like Milo experienced with giving up meat.
Kristy, Im disapointed in you.. just because someone disagrees with you, you fly off the handle... some of the rebutle's by you were in bad taste I feel, then again, Im the master of that, so it shouldnt matter.
and Milo, you are just stirring the pot now lol.
All of this is being typed as I munch on venison jerkey and pepperettes, so you know where I stand, however I respect and understand the points being brought to my attention.
stop the bickering kids....
I was wrong. More than that, I was insensitive to the point of view of others, and for that I apologize, as well. I will endeavour in the future to be a better person, and I hope that, in time, I can regain the trust and faith that many of you have displayed in me through my years here at CPF.
Thank you.
Once again . . . very sorry.
Trust me, I am the best poker player that there ever was, has been or ever will be, same goes for being a realist.
This whole thread reminds me of this pic.
Before I use the cool thread term "retarded".....I'll give you a shot. I think I understand what you're trying to say....but try again. There are so many things wrong with the above I don't know where to start. Either you're saying that being gay is a lifestyle choice...or that hating gay people is a lifestyle choice. You then go on to compare either being gay or hating people who are gay to choosing to eat meat. Lifestyle choices ARE up for debate....Like the should you eat meat or not debate that is in this thread. BEING gay is not a lifestyle choice. A gay person choosing to not eat meat = lifestyle choice (but I guess that would mean they're celibate right ;-> ). Either way saying that people can't choose to not eat meat is ....can't think of a better word....retarded.
On a separate note: (and I love meat [and brackets for that matter]) There is no way that anyone can argue that meat production doesn't take up way more resources than plant based alternatives. If no one on earth ate meat.....we'd have huge surplusses of food.
Going out to get some Taco Bell.....(which I guess qualifies as food [in that it provides calories] but I don't think anyone can nail down whether it is meat or not.)
im removing myself from this thread, as it sucks.
This is all I wanted Milo to acknowledge, I'm glad that you got it.
fedh8er you forget again that most of us know each other irl, it isn't really an anonymous internet argument to us. And I'm not even remotely flying off the handle. You're putting that intonation in because I'm female and thus brutal worded and direct doesn't often come without anger.
I love Milo, I think he knows that; but the shit he was spouting above lacked common sense.
Okay, because you said you love me (and because it is rational), yes, more land and resources are required to produce meat for food than would be needed to produce vegetation for food.
The issue for me is one of choice. You have made the choice to assume a Vegan lifestyle to whatever extent that term means for you. Fine. That is your choice.
I like meat, and do not like the alternatives that currently exist as supplements to it. That is my choice.
The conflict comes when one group of people tries to impose their ideas of right/wrong on another group. Your tone in these discussions is akin to the proverbial reformed smoker: "I quit, so everyone else must follow my shining example, and we will have a better world as a result." The world does not work that way.
There are people out there who honestly see the Vegan lifestyle as a means to bettering the planet, and I will happily put you in that group. There are other people, in various segments of this country, who would happily deny people their ability to choose that which they would deem "bad". These people can go to Hell.
I believe, as I said, that people should be left to live their lives with as little intrusion by the State as possible. I also believe that people should be responsible for their actions. That is why I am not concerned with the possibility that my life may be shortened by my choice to eat meat. I choose to enjoy my life in this way, and am willing to make that trade-off. There are many others who feel the same way. There may come a time when a majority of people feel differently, and then things may change. Until then, I quote #6:
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. I am not a number. I am a free man."
I know, I know, . . . but I've always wanted to use that line
nice post.
You suck at removing yourself from threads btw. But I guess that's a lifestyle choice....
LOL,
nice sig.
speaks volumes for the type of guy you are.
Pssh, I have faith that the post governing body will see that I said it with more panache and award me the gold.
(on reflection over the quoted above I think perhaps my 'grace' and 'debate skillz' could do with a bit of polishing and refinement.)
I guess..?
shut up wigger.
I prefer the term Wafro.