4 out 5 brands above the industry average. I took the liberty of omitting the Hummer brand since they represent less than 1% of GM's sales so you can call me on that if you want to be a nit. But you can at least admit that this noise about them building poor product is bullshit propaganda.
Yep, you're right fo sho. There they are right there with Hyundai. Congrats, you really showed me.
4 out 5 brands above the industry average. I took the liberty of omitting the Hummer brand since they represent less than 1% of GM's sales so you can call me on that if you want to be a nit. But you can at least admit that this noise about them building poor product is bullshit propaganda.
GM OWNS Saturn & SAAB!
The fact that you don't know this pretty much demolishs any credibility that you might once have had... You're just embarassing yourself now. Move on, no one will blame you.
THE ONLY REASON THOSE 4 ARE ABOVE AVERAGE, IS THEIR OTHER BRANDS DRAG DOWN THE AVERAGE! THAT'S HOW TERRIBLE THEY ARE!
This is laughable now... Nothing like using YOUR GRAPH to make a mockery of your points...
And PS:
A loan OR a handout does NO GOOD when the business is failing already, it is, as I said, just a stay of execution.
You don't understand the most basic business principles here (like who owns who...) so it's becoming harder to carry on an intelligent conversation without refering to Giving a man a fish, or teaching him to fish...
Is it just me, or is Ford right up there with Toyota and Honda. Hmmmmm . . .
And does Ford still own part of Mazda? They also had a piece of Jaguar, although I think they sold it off recently. Come on folks, apples to apples.
What both charts show is that some NA cars are good, and some are bad, and that the same goes for the off-shore manufacturers. Is a Toyota built in Woodstock inferior to one built in Japan? Doubt that Toyota thinks so . . . Is a Ford built in Brazil better than the ones built in Oakville? Doubt it.
I think we will be losing one of the Big 3 within 5 years. I think it will be Chrysler, however, and NOT GM
Caddy, 1 Billion may have gone towards bringing the foreign maker jobs..
But you are retarded if you think that there haven't been serious subsidies given to the Big 3 over the past 30 years.. Anytime they want to build a plant anywhere they get tax breaks up the ass that I'm sure are 10-50x larger than any foreign company has recieved.
The problem with the big 3 is that they've built shitty cars for so long, that an entire generation of people have grown up thinking they're shit. Getting up to 'industry average' isn't sufficient to turn that around. When you hear horror stories about the amount of money friends have put into those shitty Ford Taurus for 20 years, fuck ya, I'm not going near them either.
Meh I don't care how good or bad GM cars are. They are all butt ugly. GM styling is the worst.
I'm a GM designer. I have an idea. Let's make the car look cool - let's stick ugly ass, no useful purpose, body cladding on the sides. Yeah baby. Hot. These cars will sell...
GM makes cars in 35 different countries, and is the best selling auto maker in China. Nearly all GM cars sold in China are made domestically. I'm wondering what these other countries are planning to do to bail out GM...
Meh I don't care how good or bad GM cars are. They are all butt ugly. GM styling is the worst.
I'm a GM designer. I have an idea. Let's make the car look cool - let's stick ugly ass, no useful purpose, body cladding on the sides. Yeah baby. Hot. These cars will sell...
GM makes cars in 35 different countries, and is the best selling auto maker in China. Nearly all GM cars sold in China are made domestically. I'm wondering what these other countries are planning to do to bail out GM...
There.
That's the main problem, when people want to purchase a car they want a car that looks good ... and to quote Dane Cook, they won't buy a car that makes them look like a shit head.
Sure you'll look a bit at safety rating, fuel efficiency, but mainly, even if the Aztec had the best safety,fuel, etc rating in the whole wide world, I'd still never, ever, in my life, even if you gave it to me, drive that ugly piece of metal shit.
"The people making $120k a year on the line who haven't saved a penny of it and are crying bloody murder now deserve to fail."
Almost no one is making 120k/yr..I'm speaking from experience via ex-husband a Toyota employee who wanted to buy a new motorcycle. For a year he worked ALL the overtime at well over $30/hr +1.5x overtime, 1.5x Sat and 2x Sundays... and made shy of 100k
And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to earn in that level at that job. I can tell you that 100k/yr is not really enough to buy a modest house (seriously modest: mortgage was 125k) a used-car payment, a small renovation loan (30k) and then all the costs associated with a family of four living reasonably, note: not extravagantly, just reasonably.
Uh?
me and my girl, combine, we make like 70k a year.
We have a 150k mortgage, used car, plus the house is new so we had alot of spendings...
And we're fine... 100k a year is wayyyyy more than enough if you don't spend your money on useless stuff all the time.
Let's think for a second here. If NA companies built cars that were of the same (or better) quality than foreign cars, and priced them lower, then the foreign car companies would go out of business.
The fact is that something is making consumers want to buy Toyotas. Advertising and reviews only go so far, there's more than a perception of quality difference. Even if they're of equal quality coming off the line, what's the quality like long term? I don't think Hondas come with a 'be-satisfied and tell others about it" brainwashing machine as factory equipment.
Remember, GM or whoever might be the top selling brand, but how many of those are government purchased? Anyone seen any Camry police cars? Or Tundra city trucks? Is the Prime Minister's limo a stretch Lexus?
I'd love to see the numbers based on only individual consumer purchases.
For the record, I drive a Plymouth Voyager with over 200 000 MILES on it. (had to replace one transmission, but still running well.)
Henry Ford, in 1934 (during the Depression): "Let them fail; let everybody fail! I made my fortune when I had nothing to start with, by myself and my own ideas. Let other people do the same thing. If I lose everything in the collapse of our financial structure, I will start in at the beginning and build it up again."
And we're fine... 100k a year is wayyyyy more than enough if you don't spend your money on useless stuff all the time.
^^This. Our family makes about 60k a year, I've got a mortgage and a car (but no car payment because i'm not dumb like that anymore.) I have cable TV and the internets. And two kids. And money left over at the end of the month.
Domestic Automotive holds 71% of the market share.
How can anyone say that no one wants to buy these vehicles?
Moose – GM hasn’t sold vehicles with cladding on them for what ...5 years? I wasn’t a fan of it either but still that is a long time ago. Insane guy wants to talk about the Aztek. Should the aesthetics of the 1908 Buick McLaughlin be a relevant part of this discussion too?
BBC - I am aware that anyone who opens a huge production facility in North America is going to get a giant tax deal. I can now only hope that you don’t think of me as retarded.
You point about the public perception on quality is very valid. People are still concerned with it and still carry that torch even though it is ancient history. Read back about 30 posts to see where I agree with it.
Vandal – I think you have a problem with your caps lock. It keeps getting stuck in the on position. I was trying making the point that your assertion about GM quality issues are wrong. Your broad statement that they build shitty cars is simply incorrect. If you want to include all the fringe nameplates to support your argument fine. Consider this:
GM sold 314 543 vehicles in Canada to date.
Of the nameplates with above industry average quality rankings
- The current situation in automotive is a product of mismanagement in the financial community and not a result of a failed business model in the domestics.
- Consumers do want to buy these vehicles. Sales numbers support this.
- The quality gap argument is antiquated it does not belong in current discussions
- Domestically produced automobiles bring both more jobs and more tax dollars per vehicle sold than Imports and this is better for our economy
- Import automakers labour costs are already subsidized by their governments at home. In Japan this is done through health and retirement benefits.
- Refusing to help domestic automakers at this time will cost the tax payer exponentially more money in the long run. Mark Zandi the chief economist at Moody’s told congress last week that failure to assist the automakers at this time would have cataclysmic effects on the economy and would cost the government exponentially more money that it would to help them now.
I realize that GM, Ford and Chrysler have lots of changes to make and we are definitely going to see that happen. I believe 100% that they will get the money need and I believe that they will come back leaner and meaner than ever before.
The haters on here can flame away all they want. I just hope a few people read some of the points that I have made and realize that their perception about domestic automotive is simply not reality. Maybe they will think for a moment about the impact their decision has the next time they are out to buy a car or any other product.
- The current situation in automotive is a product of mismanagement in the financial community and not a result of a failed business model in the domestics.
If you sell a million of your vechicles at a loss, your company will not make money. Thats the definition of a failed business model.
My bad. I didn't realize the designers who picked the cladding had been replaced by Pixar's animation crew. Maybe the bailout dudes should take a look at the future of GM before they make their decision, cause it ain't good.
GM:
2009 Cobalt (is this car laughing at me or with me?)
2010 Impala (OMG)
2010 Volt (hahahahaha this is GM's answer to the energy crisis)
2010 Beat (yeah, beat already, is correct)
2012 Nomad (WTF? Seriously)
2010 Aveo (looks like a PT cruiser ran into a Beetle)
2011 Caprice:
2011 Malibu (wait a minute, are the Caprice and Malibu identical except for the background photo? WTF? That takes real imagination)
Pixar:
Does GM seriously think people want to buy a bunch of cartoony cars that look like they will talk to you? Are they banking huge on the successful return of Knight Rider?
So we've dropped the cladding for goofy looking front ends, smashed in rear ends, ridiculously high sloping window sills with sharply sloping rear roof lines, ending in a high trunk line, and thick rear roof pillars which make it difficult for rear passengers to get in and out, reduces their window to a tiny piece of glass (woe betide any adult with children in the rear), reduces rear visibility and generates huge blind spots. I hope these cars all come with that annoying beeper like the garbage trucks have as a warning when reversing.
How can anyone say that no one wants to buy these vehicles?
I said it in my post, perhaps you missed it:
Remember, GM or whoever might be the top selling brand, but how many of those are government purchased? Anyone seen any Camry police cars? Or Tundra city trucks? Is the Prime Minister's limo a stretch Lexus?
I'd love to see the numbers based on only individual consumer purchases.
^^This. Our family makes about 60k a year, I've got a mortgage and a car (but no car payment because i'm not dumb like that anymore.) I have cable TV and the internets. And two kids. And money left over at the end of the month.
Oh rly? I call bullshit.
Lets see your break down, I assume that
a: you have a reasonable mortgage that will be paid off in less than 25 years.
b: you are a good parent taking your kids to at least two extra curriculars each
c: you are realistically saving for both their education AND your retirement
d: you have a car
e: you pay home and auto insurance (we were both under 25 when we were married)
f: rainy day savings
and things like food/utilities/cable/gas/one household cell phone with a modest plan for emergencies/one family outing per month, one family vacation per year of a week/some personal spending money/christmas and birthday savings/personal care stuff like haircuts/modest clothing budget/household maintenance..etc.
this is a great conversation with valid points on both sides
there is a labour cost problem, an auto assembler should not be making the same, if not more then, a teacher
no other canadian manufactoring industry; forestry, mining, oil and gas, textiles or food have workers paid at this level
unions were to protect workers and their rights, ensuring workers were not being exploited yet the workers they protect and fight for now aren't the exploited in our society - look at a farm worker or temporary worker and it makes it hard to feel sorry for auto workers
unions however, it is not responsible for Toyota has significantly high labour costs yet it continues to sell cars
the big three missed the market by a mile; with fuel prices rising since 2002 and the Eco-green shift that has taken the market by storm
honda and toyota have brands built in NA on fuel efficiency; throughout the rest of world they are seen as reliable as only in NA is there a market for a hummer, yukon or pickup truck as a commuting vehicle
they were poised to take this market over given the conditions - had GM kept the electric car i'm sure they wouldn't be in the shit they are in now
look at how much attention the VOLT is getting
but this again shows the stunning mismanagement of these companies who sacrifice everything to ensure a quarterly profit for shareholders no matter the long term costs to the shareholders
all of those awesome rollover lease deals, huge trade in offers, and heavily back subsidized financing only made the numbers look good now there has to be an atonement
similar to the housing market the auto market was a house of cards waiting to fall
i say fuck it, lets burn that house to the ground and dance in the ashes, if i was an american i would be screaming bloody murder at the tax enslavement that is the result of the bailouts, and am totally against it here in Canada
yes it sucks, yes it is going to hurt and we are going to lose alot of our shit, oh well your 8 year old doesn't need a fucking iphone anyways
don't throw my money down this shit tube, if we are going to invest in anything lets get into green technologies and smart infrastructure like a high speed train and the trains to run it
lets make the best one in the world then sell it to the world
Germany went through a shift 15 years ago, look at where they are now
Actually I was kind of astounded that you struggled on hubby say, 90k + you PT, say 30k = $120k a year
Mortgage $160k, 5 yr fixed @ 5.25%, 25 yr amort, biweekly = 440x26 payments (11440)
Extra Curr for kidsx2x$60 through cityx3 per year (720)
RESP 250 (3000)
RRSP 300 (3600)
Car (6000)
Auto Insurance 80 (960)
House Ins 40 (480)
Rainy Day 50 (600)
Groceries 300 (3600)
Cable 50 + Phone 40 + Internet 30 (1440)
Utilities Hot water tank 20 + Gas 120 + Electric/Water/Sewer 80 (2760)
Clothes 200 (2400)
Dining Out 100 (1200)
Vacation/Outings (1800)
=$40000 annual, which is about what is left on $60k after taxes.
I can tell you that 100k/yr is not really enough to buy a modest house (seriously modest: mortgage was 125k) a used-car payment, a small renovation loan (30k) and then all the costs associated with a family of four living reasonably, note: not extravagantly, just reasonably.
The point is that we often worried about money.
off the top of my head:
mortgage+property tax: 1300
car: 250
insurance: car=300 (one accident, over 5 years old) house: 55
rainy day: 200..how the hell do you EVER get to three months expenses saving 50 bucks a month?
food: 800
Gas:320
Dining out: 200 (100!?!..you take two kids and sit down somewhere once a month+ pizzax2 for that?)
Cable 60 +Phone 45 +internet 55
Utilities gas 210 +hydro 80
Vacations: 500/yr (2 weeks at the cottage)
outings: 12[(10+10+20+20adm)+(gas and food..40?)]
Clothes: $150
add ons
personal $400 ($50/week x2 adults)
birthdays, hollidays and xmas 3k/year
household maintenance 100/mos
extra curricular, my daughter was taking riding lessons, karate and played softball 2400/yr
cell phone $40/month
my son is in karate and hockey and cub scouts about 700/yr
I'm going to use your numbers for resp/rrsp since my ex did all that stuff. (6600)
I'm at $62940 and we haven't talked about ripped sheets, new roofs, school supplies, OIL CHANGES, snow tires...and about a million other things.
we're still ignoring all the random that costs money
holy crap Kristy, change you're cable/phone and tv company lol.
we pay 53$ a month for phone+high speed internet.
(this is UNLIMITED long-distance anywhere in north america except hawaii.
And we pay 43$ for TV
I also think you need new insurance, I bought a brand new car when I was 20 and my insurance were 170$ a month (now it's less than that for a year and I'm 25...)
Gaz+hydro total 290? I hope this is in February cuz that way too expensive!
We pay that for 2 months on our equal payments.
anyays, lots of those # don't make sense... of course if you live a 70k lifestyle with a 60k income you'll have trouble but if you're carefull in your spendings you'll be fine even with a 50k income.
a: you have a reasonable mortgage that will be paid off in less than 25 years.
b: you are a good parent taking your kids to at least two extra curriculars each
c: you are realistically saving for both their education AND your retirement
d: you have a car
e: you pay home and auto insurance (we were both under 25 when we were married)
f: rainy day savings
Ok, maybe a bit I was less than forthcoming.
a. Mortgage is 165k, will be paid off in 20 yrs. But, it's on a duplex that I live in half of so the renter pays $700/mo. I suppose that's part of my income now but I just bought this house this year and haven't started thinking of it like that yet. Tbh I lived like this in my house (single family) prior to this one.
b. I'm a good parent, but my elder son is autistic, any extra curriculars he does are basically paid for by you guys, er, the government. My other son is 3 weeks old.
c. Got me there, education savings haven't been taking place, but will start soon again I guess. I am of the opinion that if a kid wants to go to college he can pay for it himself, at least after the first year.
d. Have a car, no payments as mentioned in a previous post.
e. Got both, not sure what the age has to do here but I was 21 and my wife 23.
f. We have an emergency fund of 3 months expenses saved already.
Obv. my kids are much younger right now, that's a lot of the difference. But also the fact that I have no debt but my house and an emergency fund saved already is a big factor. As a result I am never worried about money. For someone in your situation I would recommend stopping saving for education and retirement for a while until you pay off your car and get that emergency fund saved up. The peace of mind is well worth it.
Eco-green shift that has taken the market by storm
This is a bit of a red herring.. People aren't really going out and buying hybrids.. The idea that the big3 can just start making hybrids and win the market back isn't proven.
but this again shows the stunning mismanagement of these companies who sacrifice everything to ensure a quarterly profit for shareholders no matter the long term costs to the shareholders
*ALL* companies, not just auto. They all continue to remain short sighted on next quarters earnings and they miss the real opportunities of the future.
yes it sucks, yes it is going to hurt and we are going to lose alot of our shit, oh well your 8 year old doesn't need a fucking iphone anyways
I kick myself for not seeing this coming.. when it looks like everyone has too much money to spend, theres a large bubble ready to crash somewhere.
Lets assume a 200k house,
I didn't realize real estate on the moon has gotten so cheap..
For someone in your situation I would recommend stopping saving for education and retirement for a while until you pay off your car and get that emergency fund saved up. The peace of mind is well worth it.
I'm not in that situation anymore, but I definitely feel for young families who are.
(and age+insurance was because I was recognizing that payment WOULD go down at 25..and it did, to 2200/yr...lol)
This is a bit of a red herring.. People aren't really going out and buying hybrids.. The idea that the big3 can just start making hybrids and win the market back isn't proven.
Not necessarily hybrids, however GM et el have been focused on getting profits from huge SUVs.
Everything has gone green. Look at 90% of the advertising focus and you will see some 'greening' of industry
I didn't realize real estate on the moon has gotten so cheap..
In KW downtown you can still buy a house for sub 200k or a semi in the suburbs for 200k
A big part of the problem is people buying houses they never should with 0 down and 50 year mortgages
However, keeping up with the Jones has finally caught up with everyone else
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys coming home again
their ideas make me wanna spit
a hundred dollars goes down the pit
thirty-thousand wheels a rollin
and my stick shift hands are swollen
everything involved is shady
the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys comin home again
why dont cha take the day off and try to repair
a billion others don't seem to care
better ideas are stuck in the mud
the motor's runnin on tucker's blood
dont let 'em tell you the future's electric
cuz gasoline not measured in metric
thirty-thousand wheels a spinnin
and oil company faces are grinnin
and now my hand are turnin red
and i found out my baby is dead yeah yeah yeah
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobody's comin home again
well i've said it now
nothings changed
people are burnin for pocket change
and creative minds are lazy
and the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah
and my baby's my common sense
so dont feed me planned obsolescence
and my baby's my common sense
Comments
Yep, you're right fo sho. There they are right there with Hyundai. Congrats, you really showed me.
GM OWNS Saturn & SAAB!
The fact that you don't know this pretty much demolishs any credibility that you might once have had... You're just embarassing yourself now. Move on, no one will blame you.
THE ONLY REASON THOSE 4 ARE ABOVE AVERAGE, IS THEIR OTHER BRANDS DRAG DOWN THE AVERAGE! THAT'S HOW TERRIBLE THEY ARE!
This is laughable now... Nothing like using YOUR GRAPH to make a mockery of your points...
And PS:
A loan OR a handout does NO GOOD when the business is failing already, it is, as I said, just a stay of execution.
You don't understand the most basic business principles here (like who owns who...) so it's becoming harder to carry on an intelligent conversation without refering to Giving a man a fish, or teaching him to fish...
And does Ford still own part of Mazda? They also had a piece of Jaguar, although I think they sold it off recently. Come on folks, apples to apples.
What both charts show is that some NA cars are good, and some are bad, and that the same goes for the off-shore manufacturers. Is a Toyota built in Woodstock inferior to one built in Japan? Doubt that Toyota thinks so . . . Is a Ford built in Brazil better than the ones built in Oakville? Doubt it.
I think we will be losing one of the Big 3 within 5 years. I think it will be Chrysler, however, and NOT GM
But you are retarded if you think that there haven't been serious subsidies given to the Big 3 over the past 30 years.. Anytime they want to build a plant anywhere they get tax breaks up the ass that I'm sure are 10-50x larger than any foreign company has recieved.
The problem with the big 3 is that they've built shitty cars for so long, that an entire generation of people have grown up thinking they're shit. Getting up to 'industry average' isn't sufficient to turn that around. When you hear horror stories about the amount of money friends have put into those shitty Ford Taurus for 20 years, fuck ya, I'm not going near them either.
I'm a GM designer. I have an idea. Let's make the car look cool - let's stick ugly ass, no useful purpose, body cladding on the sides. Yeah baby. Hot. These cars will sell...
GM makes cars in 35 different countries, and is the best selling auto maker in China. Nearly all GM cars sold in China are made domestically. I'm wondering what these other countries are planning to do to bail out GM...
There.
That's the main problem, when people want to purchase a car they want a car that looks good ... and to quote Dane Cook, they won't buy a car that makes them look like a shit head.
Sure you'll look a bit at safety rating, fuel efficiency, but mainly, even if the Aztec had the best safety,fuel, etc rating in the whole wide world, I'd still never, ever, in my life, even if you gave it to me, drive that ugly piece of metal shit.
Uh?
me and my girl, combine, we make like 70k a year.
We have a 150k mortgage, used car, plus the house is new so we had alot of spendings...
And we're fine... 100k a year is wayyyyy more than enough if you don't spend your money on useless stuff all the time.
The fact is that something is making consumers want to buy Toyotas. Advertising and reviews only go so far, there's more than a perception of quality difference. Even if they're of equal quality coming off the line, what's the quality like long term? I don't think Hondas come with a 'be-satisfied and tell others about it" brainwashing machine as factory equipment.
Remember, GM or whoever might be the top selling brand, but how many of those are government purchased? Anyone seen any Camry police cars? Or Tundra city trucks? Is the Prime Minister's limo a stretch Lexus?
I'd love to see the numbers based on only individual consumer purchases.
For the record, I drive a Plymouth Voyager with over 200 000 MILES on it. (had to replace one transmission, but still running well.)
Henry Ford, in 1934 (during the Depression): "Let them fail; let everybody fail! I made my fortune when I had nothing to start with, by myself and my own ideas. Let other people do the same thing. If I lose everything in the collapse of our financial structure, I will start in at the beginning and build it up again."
^^This. Our family makes about 60k a year, I've got a mortgage and a car (but no car payment because i'm not dumb like that anymore.) I have cable TV and the internets. And two kids. And money left over at the end of the month.
Total Sales 1 437 737
Domestics 1 031 972
Imports 405 765
Domestic Automotive holds 71% of the market share.
How can anyone say that no one wants to buy these vehicles?
Moose – GM hasn’t sold vehicles with cladding on them for what ...5 years? I wasn’t a fan of it either but still that is a long time ago. Insane guy wants to talk about the Aztek. Should the aesthetics of the 1908 Buick McLaughlin be a relevant part of this discussion too?
BBC - I am aware that anyone who opens a huge production facility in North America is going to get a giant tax deal. I can now only hope that you don’t think of me as retarded.
You point about the public perception on quality is very valid. People are still concerned with it and still carry that torch even though it is ancient history. Read back about 30 posts to see where I agree with it.
Vandal – I think you have a problem with your caps lock. It keeps getting stuck in the on position. I was trying making the point that your assertion about GM quality issues are wrong. Your broad statement that they build shitty cars is simply incorrect. If you want to include all the fringe nameplates to support your argument fine. Consider this:
GM sold 314 543 vehicles in Canada to date.
Of the nameplates with above industry average quality rankings
Chevrolet 144 955
Pontiac 84 072
Buick 14 650
Cadillac 6 721
Total 250 398
And below
GMC 45 132
Saturn 16 969
Saab 1 383
Hummer 661
Total 64 145
80% of GM’s sales were made up of vehicles in the nameplates that rank above industry average for initial quality.
The numbers and sales data all came from here
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA59110123.PDF
My points from the get go:
- The current situation in automotive is a product of mismanagement in the financial community and not a result of a failed business model in the domestics.
- Consumers do want to buy these vehicles. Sales numbers support this.
- The quality gap argument is antiquated it does not belong in current discussions
- Domestically produced automobiles bring both more jobs and more tax dollars per vehicle sold than Imports and this is better for our economy
- Import automakers labour costs are already subsidized by their governments at home. In Japan this is done through health and retirement benefits.
- Refusing to help domestic automakers at this time will cost the tax payer exponentially more money in the long run. Mark Zandi the chief economist at Moody’s told congress last week that failure to assist the automakers at this time would have cataclysmic effects on the economy and would cost the government exponentially more money that it would to help them now.
I realize that GM, Ford and Chrysler have lots of changes to make and we are definitely going to see that happen. I believe 100% that they will get the money need and I believe that they will come back leaner and meaner than ever before.
The haters on here can flame away all they want. I just hope a few people read some of the points that I have made and realize that their perception about domestic automotive is simply not reality. Maybe they will think for a moment about the impact their decision has the next time they are out to buy a car or any other product.
If you sell a million of your vechicles at a loss, your company will not make money. Thats the definition of a failed business model.
GM:
2009 Cobalt (is this car laughing at me or with me?)
2010 Impala (OMG)
2010 Volt (hahahahaha this is GM's answer to the energy crisis)
2010 Beat (yeah, beat already, is correct)
2012 Nomad (WTF? Seriously)
2010 Aveo (looks like a PT cruiser ran into a Beetle)
2011 Caprice:
2011 Malibu (wait a minute, are the Caprice and Malibu identical except for the background photo? WTF? That takes real imagination)
Pixar:
Does GM seriously think people want to buy a bunch of cartoony cars that look like they will talk to you? Are they banking huge on the successful return of Knight Rider?
So we've dropped the cladding for goofy looking front ends, smashed in rear ends, ridiculously high sloping window sills with sharply sloping rear roof lines, ending in a high trunk line, and thick rear roof pillars which make it difficult for rear passengers to get in and out, reduces their window to a tiny piece of glass (woe betide any adult with children in the rear), reduces rear visibility and generates huge blind spots. I hope these cars all come with that annoying beeper like the garbage trucks have as a warning when reversing.
I said it in my post, perhaps you missed it:
Remember, GM or whoever might be the top selling brand, but how many of those are government purchased? Anyone seen any Camry police cars? Or Tundra city trucks? Is the Prime Minister's limo a stretch Lexus?
I'd love to see the numbers based on only individual consumer purchases.
Oh rly? I call bullshit.
Lets see your break down, I assume that
a: you have a reasonable mortgage that will be paid off in less than 25 years.
b: you are a good parent taking your kids to at least two extra curriculars each
c: you are realistically saving for both their education AND your retirement
d: you have a car
e: you pay home and auto insurance (we were both under 25 when we were married)
f: rainy day savings
and things like food/utilities/cable/gas/one household cell phone with a modest plan for emergencies/one family outing per month, one family vacation per year of a week/some personal spending money/christmas and birthday savings/personal care stuff like haircuts/modest clothing budget/household maintenance..etc.
it can't be done, you're living without on 60k.
there is a labour cost problem, an auto assembler should not be making the same, if not more then, a teacher
no other canadian manufactoring industry; forestry, mining, oil and gas, textiles or food have workers paid at this level
unions were to protect workers and their rights, ensuring workers were not being exploited yet the workers they protect and fight for now aren't the exploited in our society - look at a farm worker or temporary worker and it makes it hard to feel sorry for auto workers
unions however, it is not responsible for Toyota has significantly high labour costs yet it continues to sell cars
the big three missed the market by a mile; with fuel prices rising since 2002 and the Eco-green shift that has taken the market by storm
honda and toyota have brands built in NA on fuel efficiency; throughout the rest of world they are seen as reliable as only in NA is there a market for a hummer, yukon or pickup truck as a commuting vehicle
they were poised to take this market over given the conditions - had GM kept the electric car i'm sure they wouldn't be in the shit they are in now
look at how much attention the VOLT is getting
but this again shows the stunning mismanagement of these companies who sacrifice everything to ensure a quarterly profit for shareholders no matter the long term costs to the shareholders
all of those awesome rollover lease deals, huge trade in offers, and heavily back subsidized financing only made the numbers look good now there has to be an atonement
similar to the housing market the auto market was a house of cards waiting to fall
i say fuck it, lets burn that house to the ground and dance in the ashes, if i was an american i would be screaming bloody murder at the tax enslavement that is the result of the bailouts, and am totally against it here in Canada
yes it sucks, yes it is going to hurt and we are going to lose alot of our shit, oh well your 8 year old doesn't need a fucking iphone anyways
don't throw my money down this shit tube, if we are going to invest in anything lets get into green technologies and smart infrastructure like a high speed train and the trains to run it
lets make the best one in the world then sell it to the world
Germany went through a shift 15 years ago, look at where they are now
It can be done;
Lets assume a 200k house, family of four
60000k =~ 4000/m after taxes, income split etc
$1350 house (5%int, 25yr, $2600 prop tax)
$600 food
$175 hydro
$175 gas
$100 communication/internet cell/home
$400 car
$100 gas
$350 insurance home/car
$750 for incidentals, clothes and entertainment
$400 savings rrsp/resp would be free at this level after tax incentives
now you wouldn't be living like a baller but 60k a year is a fare wage
however many people in this country live on less then $9000 a year
Mortgage $160k, 5 yr fixed @ 5.25%, 25 yr amort, biweekly = 440x26 payments (11440)
Extra Curr for kidsx2x$60 through cityx3 per year (720)
RESP 250 (3000)
RRSP 300 (3600)
Car (6000)
Auto Insurance 80 (960)
House Ins 40 (480)
Rainy Day 50 (600)
Groceries 300 (3600)
Cable 50 + Phone 40 + Internet 30 (1440)
Utilities Hot water tank 20 + Gas 120 + Electric/Water/Sewer 80 (2760)
Clothes 200 (2400)
Dining Out 100 (1200)
Vacation/Outings (1800)
=$40000 annual, which is about what is left on $60k after taxes.
Feel free to add.
The point is that we often worried about money.
off the top of my head:
mortgage+property tax: 1300
car: 250
insurance: car=300 (one accident, over 5 years old) house: 55
rainy day: 200..how the hell do you EVER get to three months expenses saving 50 bucks a month?
food: 800
Gas:320
Dining out: 200 (100!?!..you take two kids and sit down somewhere once a month+ pizzax2 for that?)
Cable 60 +Phone 45 +internet 55
Utilities gas 210 +hydro 80
Vacations: 500/yr (2 weeks at the cottage)
outings: 12[(10+10+20+20adm)+(gas and food..40?)]
Clothes: $150
add ons
personal $400 ($50/week x2 adults)
birthdays, hollidays and xmas 3k/year
household maintenance 100/mos
extra curricular, my daughter was taking riding lessons, karate and played softball 2400/yr
cell phone $40/month
my son is in karate and hockey and cub scouts about 700/yr
I'm going to use your numbers for resp/rrsp since my ex did all that stuff. (6600)
I'm at $62940 and we haven't talked about ripped sheets, new roofs, school supplies, OIL CHANGES, snow tires...and about a million other things.
we're still ignoring all the random that costs money
we pay 53$ a month for phone+high speed internet.
(this is UNLIMITED long-distance anywhere in north america except hawaii.
And we pay 43$ for TV
I also think you need new insurance, I bought a brand new car when I was 20 and my insurance were 170$ a month (now it's less than that for a year and I'm 25...)
Gaz+hydro total 290? I hope this is in February cuz that way too expensive!
We pay that for 2 months on our equal payments.
anyays, lots of those # don't make sense... of course if you live a 70k lifestyle with a 60k income you'll have trouble but if you're carefull in your spendings you'll be fine even with a 50k income.
Ok, maybe a bit I was less than forthcoming.
a. Mortgage is 165k, will be paid off in 20 yrs. But, it's on a duplex that I live in half of so the renter pays $700/mo. I suppose that's part of my income now but I just bought this house this year and haven't started thinking of it like that yet. Tbh I lived like this in my house (single family) prior to this one.
b. I'm a good parent, but my elder son is autistic, any extra curriculars he does are basically paid for by you guys, er, the government. My other son is 3 weeks old.
c. Got me there, education savings haven't been taking place, but will start soon again I guess. I am of the opinion that if a kid wants to go to college he can pay for it himself, at least after the first year.
d. Have a car, no payments as mentioned in a previous post.
e. Got both, not sure what the age has to do here but I was 21 and my wife 23.
f. We have an emergency fund of 3 months expenses saved already.
Obv. my kids are much younger right now, that's a lot of the difference. But also the fact that I have no debt but my house and an emergency fund saved already is a big factor. As a result I am never worried about money. For someone in your situation I would recommend stopping saving for education and retirement for a while until you pay off your car and get that emergency fund saved up. The peace of mind is well worth it.
This is a bit of a red herring.. People aren't really going out and buying hybrids.. The idea that the big3 can just start making hybrids and win the market back isn't proven.
*ALL* companies, not just auto. They all continue to remain short sighted on next quarters earnings and they miss the real opportunities of the future.
I kick myself for not seeing this coming.. when it looks like everyone has too much money to spend, theres a large bubble ready to crash somewhere.
I didn't realize real estate on the moon has gotten so cheap..
I don't know a single person who owns an hybrid.
do you?
it's a very niche market and the reason is they're way to overpriced for what they deliver.
No.gonna.bother.
I'm not in that situation anymore, but I definitely feel for young families who are.
(and age+insurance was because I was recognizing that payment WOULD go down at 25..and it did, to 2200/yr...lol)
In KW downtown you can still buy a house for sub 200k or a semi in the suburbs for 200k
A big part of the problem is people buying houses they never should with 0 down and 50 year mortgages
However, keeping up with the Jones has finally caught up with everyone else
Ya.. the moon.. thats what I said.
YouTube - The White Stripes - The Big Three Killed My Baby
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys coming home again
their ideas make me wanna spit
a hundred dollars goes down the pit
thirty-thousand wheels a rollin
and my stick shift hands are swollen
everything involved is shady
the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys comin home again
why dont cha take the day off and try to repair
a billion others don't seem to care
better ideas are stuck in the mud
the motor's runnin on tucker's blood
dont let 'em tell you the future's electric
cuz gasoline not measured in metric
thirty-thousand wheels a spinnin
and oil company faces are grinnin
and now my hand are turnin red
and i found out my baby is dead yeah yeah yeah
the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobody's comin home again
well i've said it now
nothings changed
people are burnin for pocket change
and creative minds are lazy
and the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah
and my baby's my common sense
so dont feed me planned obsolescence
and my baby's my common sense
yeah im about to have another blow up (2x)
Good job UAW.