Hobbes, if you are happy being another one of the sheep then knock your socks off.
The people who seem to revel in the current situation can kiss my lily white ass. Preferably right in the center.
Once upon a time about 3 decades ago Domestic manufacturers were red lining their workforce and production facilities to keep up with demand. Their production quality at the time sucked because they did not have the infrastructure to maintain quality and run at that pace and quite likely they just didn’t care. They were making money for themselves, their shareholders and life was good.
The Japanese came to the party with their little boutique style business, built a fraction of the vehicles and took a nibble out of the pie. Their vehicles were small and they were simple. Most of had manual transmissions and many didn’t even have air conditioning. Compared to the domestics they were Spartan, they had fewer bells and whistles which meant they had fewer things to go wrong.
Imports started to win quality awards and everyone took notice. Good for the imports and also good for the consumer. This fact forced the domestics to provide a better product and in time they responded.
A generation and a half later the quality gap has all but disappeared. Unfortunately a certain segment of the automotive press has made a living off perpetuating this myth and they are not about to start beating a different drum. And on it goes with the sheep still believing that a quality gap still exists.
Domestic automotive has driven our economy for decades. You have been fortunate enough to suckle at the teat while you remain fat, dumb and happy.
The sales tax alone on the vehicles sold by domestic manufacturers would look approximately like this $4,464,000,000.00 a year. This does not take into effect the corporate taxes, municipal taxes, gas tax, a/c tax, fuel levies.
Oh wait… how about the income tax paid by employees of the automotive sector and their parts suppliers, which is estimated at about 10% of the workforce in Canada. Don’t forget as well what tax bracket these people report in. I can tell you it ain’t no 20%. How about the money that goes back into the system while these people spend their dollars that are left over from taxes? The loss of revenue to our government will be catastrophic if the domestics are allowed to go under.
US congress doled out over 8 hundred billion dollars to the financial community. These companies and people make nothing and create nothing except wealth for themselves. They employ as few people as possible and have outsourced a huge chunk of their jobs away from North America. As a matter of fact they were so busy creating wealth for themselves they put our entire economy into the predicament it is in now. Do you think the domestic automotive manufacturers would be in the spot they are in now if it weren’t for the credit market?
GM, Ford and Chrysler have asked for a fraction of the money that the US government gave to the financial community. It is not a hand out, it is a loan. This has happened in the 80’s with Chrysler when Lee Iacocca was at the helm and the government guaranteed the loans. Do you know what happened? The loans were repaid not only in full but several years ahead of schedule.
To any who think this situation is a big funny joke you better give your head a shake. if this situation plays out with no help from US Congress you won’t be laughing by the time this shakes itself out.
Hobbes, if you are happy being another one of the sheep then knock your socks off.
1st of all GFY caddy. I am no sheep. I have owned both domestic and so called foreign cars (made in Canada BTW). I had nothing but trouble with my last GM.
You have 1 of those bumper stickers that say "Out of a job yet. Keep buying foreign"
A generation and a half later the quality gap has all but disappeared. Unfortunately a certain segment of the automotive press has made a living off perpetuating this myth and they are not about to start beating a different drum. And on it goes with the sheep still believing that a quality gap still exists.
Domestic automotive has driven our economy for decades. You have been fortunate enough to suckle at the teat while you remain fat, dumb and happy.
And a certain segment of the union propaganda machine makes a living reminding us of the pedestal we should place the automotive sector on. These guys need to give their heads a shake. The economy is changing and the unions are an anchor around it's neck.
The sales tax alone on the vehicles sold by domestic manufacturers would look approximately like this $4,464,000,000.00 a year. This does not take into effect the corporate taxes, municipal taxes, gas tax, a/c tax, fuel levies.
I take it you didn't pull these numbers out of your lilly white ass. But really who cares. Without the domestics, there will still be a need for cars (oh wait I forgot we will cease to exist without the auto industry). Taxes will still get paid, fuel bought but I guess the gov't loses out on the "I drive a gas guzzler tax"
Oh wait… how about the income tax paid by employees of the automotive sector and their parts suppliers, which is estimated at about 10% of the workforce in Canada. Don’t forget as well what tax bracket these people report in. I can tell you it ain’t no 20%. How about the money that goes back into the system while these people spend their dollars that are left over from taxes? The loss of revenue to our government will be catastrophic if the domestics are allowed to go under.
The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!
The domestics are always looking for $ for some crisis.
To any who think this situation is a big funny joke you better give your head a shake. if this situation plays out with no help from US Congress you won’t be laughing by the time this shakes itself out.
The domestics and the unions need to give their heads a shake and start working together.
1st of all GFY caddy. I am no sheep. I have owned both domestic and so called foreign cars (made in Canada BTW). I had nothing but trouble with my last GM.
You have 1 of those bumper stickers that say "Out of a job yet. Keep buying foreign"
Not made in Canada. Assembled in Canada. There is a big difference in the value to our economy. Twice as many jobs and twice as many tax dollars when they are MADE in Canada.
And a certain segment of the union propaganda machine makes a living reminding us of the pedestal we should place the automotive sector on. These guys need to give their heads a shake. The economy is changing and the unions are an anchor around it's neck.
I am not saying anyone deserves to on a pedestal. If you want the truth I have a big problem with the way that the UAW and CAW have held a gun to the head of the big 3 in labor negotiations.
I take it you didn't pull these numbers out of your lilly white ass. But really who cares. Without the domestics, there will still be a need for cars (oh wait I forgot we will cease to exist without the auto industry). Taxes will still get paid, fuel bought but I guess the gov't loses out on the "I drive a gas guzzler tax"
No we will still exist with out domestic automotive. We will just take the money from the largest purchases that we make outside of our homes and ship it halfway around the world to people who don't inject that capital back into our economy.
Do you even have a clue why domestics built so many gas guzzlers? Because the consumer demanded it that is why. Gas is cheap here and consumers wanted to buy big SUVS and trucks. So the domestics provided them.
Foreign automakers pay more for fuel back home so their designs are smaller and more fuel efficient. And before you go patting them on the back for being more GREEN than the domestics I suggest you take a look at Honda and Toyota's product line. They all tried to come to the gas guzzler party. They just got here a day late and a dollar short.
I am not saying anyone deserves to on a pedestal. If you want the truth I have a big problem with the way that the UAW and CAW have held a gun to the head of the big 3 in labor negotiations.
I'm interested in this opinion, care to elaborate?
I expect that if the big 3 go under, then the Japanese companies will step in to pick up the slack in production. They already employ North Americans to build their cars... So I don't buy the argument that the economy will go to zero.
I also think this industry has operated in it's own little bubble world. It's a manual labor job yet their employee costs are $86/hr? How is that possible?
If you lose 20M car/year production, it doesn't just disappear forever.
We will just take the money from the largest purchases that we make outside of our homes and ship it halfway around the world to people who don't inject that capital back into our economy.
This is why it's imperative that Canada continues to innovate to stay ahead of the world so that our exports are something that people want to buy. I fail to see how flushing tens of billions of dollars down the drain on companies that obviously can't compete anymore is ensuring canadian innovcation.
There, of course, is truth on both sides of the fence.
There is still a very clear quality gap. Sure some of the foreign brands have lowered the foreign quality bar some (Mitsubishi, Nissan) and some effort has been made on the US side to raise the domestic bar some. But my God, there is still a massive gap between Lexus, Toyota Honda, and even Infiniti to anything the US produces.
When the US was making money hand over fist the Unions argued for more of it each year. Generally they probably went too far. But don't kid yourself, if the unions hadn't the big 3 would have just lined thier pockets with the money not reinvested it or lowered the prices. This is a free market capitalism issue where the unions played a role not the only role.
The bumper stickers that say "Lose your job yet? Keep buying foreign" at first pissed me off. At first I thought well damn it... if you can't make something as good why the hell should that be my problem to deal with?
But there is a lot to the statement and it's a real problem of our age well beyond the auto industry. Very few people buy anything local anymore. Manufacturing has left our shores in almost every industry and it continues to do so. In a free market manufacturing migrates to where it is cheapest to do so. It is inevitable.
The next to leave is services… and we’re well into that step. McDonalds ran a test program where they had people in India answering drive thru orders in the US.
Once manufacturing and services leave what's left? Management and intelligence? Hell it's just a matter of time until they follow. Even if they don't, given enough time those manufacturing the goods will close the intelligence and experience gap on their own.
Those companies that can ship manufacturing and jobs overseas can get products on the shelves at Wal-Mart cheaper then those who keep the jobs here. The consumers DO NOT GIVE A SHIT where it came from... only that it's cheaper. Those companies that can't or won't do this go out of business.
The drain has been wide open for years. The western world is being sucked dry and it's the Western consumer that holds the drain open. It is also the Governments that enable the process. The key to the markets is the consumer. As long as the consumer is happy and spending the markets go up year over year. They move to bring down tariffs and trade barriers in the name of progress to further enable the consumer to spend spend, spend. Also as the prices come down the Governments report card looks even better since inflation is kept under control. Low inflation + higher markets = reelection.
The consumer long ago passed the barrier of spending what he earns. The consumer has been fueled off credit for many, many years now. The key factor in this being that his assets increased every year since his house value went up every year. The consumer has not felt his debt burden because his home value increase canceled it out.
Well the game is over. With the drop in the housing market the consumer has gone into hibernation. The consumer now feels his debt burden and has stopped spending. The markets have dropped over 40% this year to reflect this further compounding the burden felt as everyone’s retirement funds get crushed.
Where do we go from here? It's a very tricky question. You need to support enough banks that the system doesn't crash. You support enough auto makers that you don't bump the unemployment numbers too high. But damn it the consumer has to start buying local again or we can never get out of this… and I’m not just talking autos. In order to create jobs here there has to be demand for things built here.
Hell what if, once China closes the intelligence and experience gap they want to go to war? How do you wage a war without a manufacturing ability or capacity? Hell how do you fight a war now a day without the ability to design and produce electronics? Seriously think about that. It's not possible.
The US automakers shit the bed. They were too arrogant and slow to prepare for this. They are on their knees at deaths door after seeing just a 10% year over year drop in orders. They deserve to fail. The unions that asked for the world +1 every year deserve to fail. The people making $120k a year on the line who haven't saved a penny of it and are crying bloody murder now deserve to fail.
But we can't let the whole NA auto industry fail. It is one of our last large manufacturing sectors. Some of it should be aided through this period. They should be forced to change, both business and union, to better cope with the reality of the business environment today. We should help them through this period to some extent... not for free but with loans and investments.
I personally would like to see them stripped to their bones. Each of the big three should drop to one brand (Ford, Chrysler and GM... no Dodge, Chevy, Cadillac...). I would even let one of the big 3 fall (GM) if need be to get the seriousness of the situation across to the other two.
All of the above is just ramblings thrown down to get across that there is a systemic failure occurring here in the Western world. The free market, capitalism, corporate greed and the mindless consumer are all to blame. This is not a simple situation at all… and the future of the Western world is on the table here. Never trust a politicians words… look to his actions. The actions being taken in the States to save the market are in utter desperation. Make no mistake of the severity of the situation going on right now. On the down side we could lose everything. On the upside we could rebound after a painful rebalancing of the consumer debt vs. consumption rate. I personally think there is a need for a refocused North American auto sector on the other side if we can indeed get there.
"The people making $120k a year on the line who haven't saved a penny of it and are crying bloody murder now deserve to fail."
Almost no one is making 120k/yr..I'm speaking from experience via ex-husband a Toyota employee who wanted to buy a new motorcycle. For a year he worked ALL the overtime at well over $30/hr +1.5x overtime, 1.5x Sat and 2x Sundays... and made shy of 100k
And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to earn in that level at that job. I can tell you that 100k/yr is not really enough to buy a modest house (seriously modest: mortgage was 125k) a used-car payment, a small renovation loan (30k) and then all the costs associated with a family of four living reasonably, note: not extravagantly, just reasonably.
I think that any job intended to be life-long must pay enough to do a few things:
-It must pay at a level where one can buy a house
-It must afford the option for one parent to stay home at least until your child enters full-time school (his wage did NOT allow this, I worked part time and more than paid for myself)
-It must provide a benefits package that protects that family from financial hardship and helps families stay healthy (for the positive effect on both the family AND on the company for having a healthy, less-burdened employee)
Those people who can work with their minds reap the benefits of not taxing their bodies to the limits that the 'line workers' in my life have; but at no point have these educated made themselves more entitled to a reasonable life by having the good fortune to have been born more intelligent, or provided with more options...like going to University.
I had a big long response about why I think you are wrong, but it comes down to a single thesis. In order for Canada to stay ahead of all the problems your describe, we have to continue to increase productivity and continue to innovcate. That means investment in the private sector and investment in the education of the workforce.
If we don't, then you can kiss us goodbye and everything you describe will become true.
I stand corrected on an exaggeration Kristy. I picked a number that I understand to be the top end of unionized labour in the auto industry rather then the mean value. That wasn't fair. I can't remove all blame from the unions here though.
I feel our western societal expectations are too high though. We feel we have the right to all those things you listed and so many more like flat screen tvs and snowblowers etc. We are too far from the thought of just hoping to have food next month to appreciate how high our expectations are though. We need a reminder... and I am hoping this downturn is enough.
Unfortunately if you want to have a single income now a day you have to accept a low standard of living. In most cases if you want to have a single income you are going to have to give up the hopes of extras like motorcycles and morgages.
This is why I think we should accept polygamy. If I had several wives, some who worked and some who stayed home to mind the chores and the kids, I think we could still maintain a decent standard of living . (please don't flame me for this remark... I'm not being serious)
This is why I think we should accept polygamy. If I had several wives, some who worked and some who stayed home to mind the chores and the kids I think we could still have a decent standard of living .
Actually it is Polyandry FTW. Makes wayyyyy more sense.
First of all why would you want more wives to disappoint? When evolution gives you more equipment, and the ability to perform indefinitely- feel free to resubmit your request, until then the best person for the job..is a woman.
Second, very few women are ever satisfied with the effort their partners put in...imagine if you could just keep doing what you're doing, but now we multiply that by three husbands...she'd finally be getting enough help around the house, and you (the collective husbands unit) enough of the chores done. You'd all have more free time and a guarantee that you can go out drinking/partying/golfing ...whatever ..at least a couple days/week. Because it would be other husbands turn to occupy her.
I dream of having 3...days, afternoons and night shift.
Maybe it's because I can SEE the Toyota smoke stacks from my office. You might know the one, it's where they Build the Engines, and Assemble the Corrola's, Lexus's RX series, Matrix's. I personally know half a dozen people who work for Lear, TMI, or a handful of other companies that live off Toyota.
I'll address the main errors quickly, then add a few questions:
"US congress doled out over 8 hundred billion dollars to the financial community. These companies and people make nothing and create nothing except wealth for themselves."
True but irrelevant. One bad decision does not necessitate a second. And, the basic theory behind the Bailout is this is: "Let's help these bad companies through this time, and then regulate them in the future, so this doesn't happen again".
What would the concept be behind the Auto-Bailout? "Let's cover our debts now, but do nothing towards solving the long term problems"
----
The real question is this: What would an Auto-bailout ACTUALLY do? Will it make Big 3 Cars more attractive or more profitable? Will it give long-term job security to their employees? Will it bring these companies into the 21st century in terms of innovation?
Unfortunately, the answer to all 3 of these questions is: "NO".
So, this wouldn't be a Bailout, or a helping hand, it would be a stay of Execution.
She'd be too busy with her three husbands to meddle...seriously, Polyandry would end all the worlds woes in three generations!
Doesn't sounds like as much fun though. Anyway Kristy that wouldn't work either. You wouldn't make it 3 generations... if every eligable woman had 3 husbands in short order 2 out of 3 men in the world would be dead... or is that the real plan?
1. The US government hast spent a billion dollars to lure Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda plants to the US.
2. GM has the largest market share in the US and Canada while building cars that no one wants to buy. Wait... WAT?
3. Domestic automakers are burdened with the enormous cost of health care and pension for their workers. The health care and pensions for Japanese Automakers is funded through the government of Japan by the taxpayers in that country. The Japanese have been funding their companies on an ongoing basis but when the domestics hit a wall because of the financial community the people here say, "screw em."
4. GM’s overall sales fell 41 percent in November (Ford was down 30 percent, Honda was down 32 percent and Toyota was down 34 percent), what is happening in the industry points to something other than a failed business model for domestic automakers.
5. Foreign automakers benefit from ridiculously unfair trade. South Korea sold 700,000 units last year in the US and allowed the import of 5,000 units. This represents a trade deficit of 1.7 Billion. The trade deficit with Japan is 6.3 Billion.
There is a lot of layers to this important issue, and there is no easy answer but I stand by the fact that anyone who says, "Let'em go under!!" is ignorant about the facts, ignorant about the consequences and just plain ignorant for blabbing such a spiteful opinion when they obviously don't have a clue.
I live in a town of 35,000 people that has lost or is losing close to 5,000 automotive related jobs in the last year. These people are the faces I see when I drop my kids off at daycare, go to the skating rink or the mall. For anyone who can't get down off their soapbox long enough to turn their brain on for five minutes can eat a cock for all I care.
My two year old daughter is smart enough to not take a shit where she eats. Even when she is feeling spiteful. It is really unfortunate that so many people can't seem to figure that out for themselves.
2. GM has the largest market share in the US and Canada while building cars that no one wants to buy. Wait... WAT?
I'll explain in small words: They make poor cars, so they have to sell them at a LOSS. See what I did there? Basic logic? Hence the reason their business model sucks. Better to scale down, make a car properly, efficiently, and profitably, but make FEWER.
3. Domestic automakers are burdened with the enormous cost of health care and pension for their workers.
Not in Canada, hence the reason the Canadian plants would still be profitable, and would QUICKLY REOPENED by a new owner. The infrastructure is too valuable to be left to rot.
4. GM’s overall sales fell 41 percent in November (Ford was down 30 percent, Honda was down 32 percent and Toyota was down 34 percent), what is happening in the industry points to something other than a failed business model for domestic automakers.
Low tides lower all Ships. Ebbs occur, and when they do, poorly run companies fail. One of the reasons the cycle of the free market works.
But, did you notice that Toyota is still operating AT A PROFIT? Why? Proper business models.
5. Foreign automakers benefit from ridiculously unfair trade. South Korea sold 700,000 units last year in the US and allowed the import of 5,000 units. This represents a trade deficit of 1.7 Billion. The trade deficit with Japan is 6.3 Billion.
Why would the Koreans want to buy over priced cars from the US? The only reason WE are still buying them are fear-mongering Bumper Stickers.
There is a lot of layers to this important issue, and there is no easy answer but I stand by the fact that anyone who says, "Let'em go under!!" is ignorant about the facts, ignorant about the consequences and just plain ignorant for blabbing such a spiteful opinion when they obviously don't have a clue.
I'm not sure what the Literal definition of "hypocrite" is, but I'm pretty sure saying: "This is a complex issue" followed closely by "anyone who doesn't agree doesn't have a clue" qualifies you as one...
I live in a town of 35,000 people that has lost or is losing close to 5,000 automotive related jobs in the last year. These people are the faces I see when I drop my kids off at daycare, go to the skating rink or the mall. For anyone who can't get down off their soapbox long enough to turn their brain on for five minutes can eat a cock for all I care.
It's unfortunate that you're too short sighted to realize that the BEST thing for these people and their children, is to create a SUSTAINABLE method of generating income. Subsidizing is never the answer.
My two year old daughter is smart enough to not take a shit where she eats. Even when she is feeling spiteful. It is really unfortunate that so many people can't seem to figure that out for themselves.
Is she smart enough to know that Indoor Plumbing caused a lot of Carpenters who built Outhouses to lose their jobs?
Thank god you weren't in charge then, or we'd still be shitting in the woods.
Not in Canada, hence the reason the Canadian plants would still be profitable, and would QUICKLY REOPENED by a new owner. The infrastructure is too valuable to be left to rot.
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Actually, the healthcare costs for employess/retirees IS an issue for the Big 3 Canadian Auto manufacturers. The reason being that they offer so much beyond basic coverage for the employee and beneficiaries. My late Mother had a private room, home care, etc. all paid for by my Dad's pension benefits.
How is this Bad? Encouraging businesses to develop and produce here is INFINITELY better than Subsidising failing businesses.
No. Agree to give the foreign companies money from public coffers but not offering it to the domestics is unfair. And to bring you up to speed since reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point, they are asking for a loan not a handout.
They make poor cars, so they have to sell them at a LOSS. See what I did there? Basic logic? Hence the reason their business model sucks. Better to scale down, make a car properly, efficiently, and profitably, but make FEWER.
80% of GM's brands are above the industry median when it comes to quality. Or are simple facts above your basic logic?
But, did you notice that Toyota is still operating AT A PROFIT? Why? Proper business models.
Better check your facts on this one hero. If you think that Toyota is down 30% in sales since this credit fiasco and is still profitable over that period think again.
I'm not sure what the Literal definition of "hypocrite" is, but I'm pretty sure saying: "This is a complex issue" followed closely by "anyone who doesn't agree doesn't have a clue" qualifies you as one...
You are 100% correct. You have no idea what the definition of hypocrite is.
I can do a google search to find piles of reports to the contrary. Can you provide one unbiased link to back up your claim?
2008 JD Power Initial Quality rankings
4 out 5 brands above the industry average. I took the liberty of omitting the Hummer brand since they represent less than 1% of GM's sales so you can call me on that if you want to be a nit. But you can at least admit that this noise about them building poor product is bullshit propaganda.
Comments
Hobbes, if you are happy being another one of the sheep then knock your socks off.
The people who seem to revel in the current situation can kiss my lily white ass. Preferably right in the center.
Once upon a time about 3 decades ago Domestic manufacturers were red lining their workforce and production facilities to keep up with demand. Their production quality at the time sucked because they did not have the infrastructure to maintain quality and run at that pace and quite likely they just didn’t care. They were making money for themselves, their shareholders and life was good.
The Japanese came to the party with their little boutique style business, built a fraction of the vehicles and took a nibble out of the pie. Their vehicles were small and they were simple. Most of had manual transmissions and many didn’t even have air conditioning. Compared to the domestics they were Spartan, they had fewer bells and whistles which meant they had fewer things to go wrong.
Imports started to win quality awards and everyone took notice. Good for the imports and also good for the consumer. This fact forced the domestics to provide a better product and in time they responded.
A generation and a half later the quality gap has all but disappeared. Unfortunately a certain segment of the automotive press has made a living off perpetuating this myth and they are not about to start beating a different drum. And on it goes with the sheep still believing that a quality gap still exists.
Domestic automotive has driven our economy for decades. You have been fortunate enough to suckle at the teat while you remain fat, dumb and happy.
The sales tax alone on the vehicles sold by domestic manufacturers would look approximately like this $4,464,000,000.00 a year. This does not take into effect the corporate taxes, municipal taxes, gas tax, a/c tax, fuel levies.
Oh wait… how about the income tax paid by employees of the automotive sector and their parts suppliers, which is estimated at about 10% of the workforce in Canada. Don’t forget as well what tax bracket these people report in. I can tell you it ain’t no 20%. How about the money that goes back into the system while these people spend their dollars that are left over from taxes? The loss of revenue to our government will be catastrophic if the domestics are allowed to go under.
US congress doled out over 8 hundred billion dollars to the financial community. These companies and people make nothing and create nothing except wealth for themselves. They employ as few people as possible and have outsourced a huge chunk of their jobs away from North America. As a matter of fact they were so busy creating wealth for themselves they put our entire economy into the predicament it is in now. Do you think the domestic automotive manufacturers would be in the spot they are in now if it weren’t for the credit market?
GM, Ford and Chrysler have asked for a fraction of the money that the US government gave to the financial community. It is not a hand out, it is a loan. This has happened in the 80’s with Chrysler when Lee Iacocca was at the helm and the government guaranteed the loans. Do you know what happened? The loans were repaid not only in full but several years ahead of schedule.
To any who think this situation is a big funny joke you better give your head a shake. if this situation plays out with no help from US Congress you won’t be laughing by the time this shakes itself out.
1st of all GFY caddy. I am no sheep. I have owned both domestic and so called foreign cars (made in Canada BTW). I had nothing but trouble with my last GM.
You have 1 of those bumper stickers that say "Out of a job yet. Keep buying foreign"
And a certain segment of the union propaganda machine makes a living reminding us of the pedestal we should place the automotive sector on. These guys need to give their heads a shake. The economy is changing and the unions are an anchor around it's neck.
I take it you didn't pull these numbers out of your lilly white ass. But really who cares. Without the domestics, there will still be a need for cars (oh wait I forgot we will cease to exist without the auto industry). Taxes will still get paid, fuel bought but I guess the gov't loses out on the "I drive a gas guzzler tax"
The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!
The domestics are always looking for $ for some crisis.
The domestics and the unions need to give their heads a shake and start working together.
And finally GM Makes its Case to Americans; Admits Mistakes - FOXBusiness.com
Asbestos suit on flame away caddy
Always is....right in the middle of Caddy's lilly white ass
Not made in Canada. Assembled in Canada. There is a big difference in the value to our economy. Twice as many jobs and twice as many tax dollars when they are MADE in Canada.
I am not saying anyone deserves to on a pedestal. If you want the truth I have a big problem with the way that the UAW and CAW have held a gun to the head of the big 3 in labor negotiations.
No we will still exist with out domestic automotive. We will just take the money from the largest purchases that we make outside of our homes and ship it halfway around the world to people who don't inject that capital back into our economy.
Do you even have a clue why domestics built so many gas guzzlers? Because the consumer demanded it that is why. Gas is cheap here and consumers wanted to buy big SUVS and trucks. So the domestics provided them.
Foreign automakers pay more for fuel back home so their designs are smaller and more fuel efficient. And before you go patting them on the back for being more GREEN than the domestics I suggest you take a look at Honda and Toyota's product line. They all tried to come to the gas guzzler party. They just got here a day late and a dollar short.
WTF? Care to back this up with any facts Chicken Little?
I'm interested in this opinion, care to elaborate?
I expect that if the big 3 go under, then the Japanese companies will step in to pick up the slack in production. They already employ North Americans to build their cars... So I don't buy the argument that the economy will go to zero.
I also think this industry has operated in it's own little bubble world. It's a manual labor job yet their employee costs are $86/hr? How is that possible?
If you lose 20M car/year production, it doesn't just disappear forever.
This is why it's imperative that Canada continues to innovate to stay ahead of the world so that our exports are something that people want to buy. I fail to see how flushing tens of billions of dollars down the drain on companies that obviously can't compete anymore is ensuring canadian innovcation.
GM pays $30 per employee hour on work that was done in the past (ie pension, heath care, early retirement) for it's workers.
There, of course, is truth on both sides of the fence.
There is still a very clear quality gap. Sure some of the foreign brands have lowered the foreign quality bar some (Mitsubishi, Nissan) and some effort has been made on the US side to raise the domestic bar some. But my God, there is still a massive gap between Lexus, Toyota Honda, and even Infiniti to anything the US produces.
When the US was making money hand over fist the Unions argued for more of it each year. Generally they probably went too far. But don't kid yourself, if the unions hadn't the big 3 would have just lined thier pockets with the money not reinvested it or lowered the prices. This is a free market capitalism issue where the unions played a role not the only role.
The bumper stickers that say "Lose your job yet? Keep buying foreign" at first pissed me off. At first I thought well damn it... if you can't make something as good why the hell should that be my problem to deal with?
But there is a lot to the statement and it's a real problem of our age well beyond the auto industry. Very few people buy anything local anymore. Manufacturing has left our shores in almost every industry and it continues to do so. In a free market manufacturing migrates to where it is cheapest to do so. It is inevitable.
The next to leave is services… and we’re well into that step. McDonalds ran a test program where they had people in India answering drive thru orders in the US.
Once manufacturing and services leave what's left? Management and intelligence? Hell it's just a matter of time until they follow. Even if they don't, given enough time those manufacturing the goods will close the intelligence and experience gap on their own.
Those companies that can ship manufacturing and jobs overseas can get products on the shelves at Wal-Mart cheaper then those who keep the jobs here. The consumers DO NOT GIVE A SHIT where it came from... only that it's cheaper. Those companies that can't or won't do this go out of business.
The drain has been wide open for years. The western world is being sucked dry and it's the Western consumer that holds the drain open. It is also the Governments that enable the process. The key to the markets is the consumer. As long as the consumer is happy and spending the markets go up year over year. They move to bring down tariffs and trade barriers in the name of progress to further enable the consumer to spend spend, spend. Also as the prices come down the Governments report card looks even better since inflation is kept under control. Low inflation + higher markets = reelection.
The consumer long ago passed the barrier of spending what he earns. The consumer has been fueled off credit for many, many years now. The key factor in this being that his assets increased every year since his house value went up every year. The consumer has not felt his debt burden because his home value increase canceled it out.
Well the game is over. With the drop in the housing market the consumer has gone into hibernation. The consumer now feels his debt burden and has stopped spending. The markets have dropped over 40% this year to reflect this further compounding the burden felt as everyone’s retirement funds get crushed.
Where do we go from here? It's a very tricky question. You need to support enough banks that the system doesn't crash. You support enough auto makers that you don't bump the unemployment numbers too high. But damn it the consumer has to start buying local again or we can never get out of this… and I’m not just talking autos. In order to create jobs here there has to be demand for things built here.
Hell what if, once China closes the intelligence and experience gap they want to go to war? How do you wage a war without a manufacturing ability or capacity? Hell how do you fight a war now a day without the ability to design and produce electronics? Seriously think about that. It's not possible.
The US automakers shit the bed. They were too arrogant and slow to prepare for this. They are on their knees at deaths door after seeing just a 10% year over year drop in orders. They deserve to fail. The unions that asked for the world +1 every year deserve to fail. The people making $120k a year on the line who haven't saved a penny of it and are crying bloody murder now deserve to fail.
But we can't let the whole NA auto industry fail. It is one of our last large manufacturing sectors. Some of it should be aided through this period. They should be forced to change, both business and union, to better cope with the reality of the business environment today. We should help them through this period to some extent... not for free but with loans and investments.
I personally would like to see them stripped to their bones. Each of the big three should drop to one brand (Ford, Chrysler and GM... no Dodge, Chevy, Cadillac...). I would even let one of the big 3 fall (GM) if need be to get the seriousness of the situation across to the other two.
All of the above is just ramblings thrown down to get across that there is a systemic failure occurring here in the Western world. The free market, capitalism, corporate greed and the mindless consumer are all to blame. This is not a simple situation at all… and the future of the Western world is on the table here. Never trust a politicians words… look to his actions. The actions being taken in the States to save the market are in utter desperation. Make no mistake of the severity of the situation going on right now. On the down side we could lose everything. On the upside we could rebound after a painful rebalancing of the consumer debt vs. consumption rate. I personally think there is a need for a refocused North American auto sector on the other side if we can indeed get there.
[/rambling thoughts]
"The people making $120k a year on the line who haven't saved a penny of it and are crying bloody murder now deserve to fail."
Almost no one is making 120k/yr..I'm speaking from experience via ex-husband a Toyota employee who wanted to buy a new motorcycle. For a year he worked ALL the overtime at well over $30/hr +1.5x overtime, 1.5x Sat and 2x Sundays... and made shy of 100k
And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to earn in that level at that job. I can tell you that 100k/yr is not really enough to buy a modest house (seriously modest: mortgage was 125k) a used-car payment, a small renovation loan (30k) and then all the costs associated with a family of four living reasonably, note: not extravagantly, just reasonably.
I think that any job intended to be life-long must pay enough to do a few things:
-It must pay at a level where one can buy a house
-It must afford the option for one parent to stay home at least until your child enters full-time school (his wage did NOT allow this, I worked part time and more than paid for myself)
-It must provide a benefits package that protects that family from financial hardship and helps families stay healthy (for the positive effect on both the family AND on the company for having a healthy, less-burdened employee)
Those people who can work with their minds reap the benefits of not taxing their bodies to the limits that the 'line workers' in my life have; but at no point have these educated made themselves more entitled to a reasonable life by having the good fortune to have been born more intelligent, or provided with more options...like going to University.
A little respect for them please.
If we don't, then you can kiss us goodbye and everything you describe will become true.
I feel our western societal expectations are too high though. We feel we have the right to all those things you listed and so many more like flat screen tvs and snowblowers etc. We are too far from the thought of just hoping to have food next month to appreciate how high our expectations are though. We need a reminder... and I am hoping this downturn is enough.
Unfortunately if you want to have a single income now a day you have to accept a low standard of living. In most cases if you want to have a single income you are going to have to give up the hopes of extras like motorcycles and morgages.
This is why I think we should accept polygamy. If I had several wives, some who worked and some who stayed home to mind the chores and the kids, I think we could still maintain a decent standard of living
Actually it is Polyandry FTW. Makes wayyyyy more sense.
First of all why would you want more wives to disappoint? When evolution gives you more equipment, and the ability to perform indefinitely- feel free to resubmit your request, until then the best person for the job..is a woman.
Second, very few women are ever satisfied with the effort their partners put in...imagine if you could just keep doing what you're doing, but now we multiply that by three husbands...she'd finally be getting enough help around the house, and you (the collective husbands unit) enough of the chores done. You'd all have more free time and a guarantee that you can go out drinking/partying/golfing ...whatever ..at least a couple days/week. Because it would be other husbands turn to occupy her.
I dream of having 3...days, afternoons and night shift.
errr...not that I've thought about it much
Besides the thought of multiple mother in laws isn't exactly appealing.
She'd be too busy with her three husbands to meddle...seriously, Polyandry would end all the worlds woes in three generations!
Fear-mongering bullshit.
Maybe it's because I can SEE the Toyota smoke stacks from my office. You might know the one, it's where they Build the Engines, and Assemble the Corrola's, Lexus's RX series, Matrix's. I personally know half a dozen people who work for Lear, TMI, or a handful of other companies that live off Toyota.
I'll address the main errors quickly, then add a few questions:
"The quality gap has all but disappeared"
WRONG.
Consumer Reports Article - MSN Autos
(that's one of about 76 links that can show the lie)
"US congress doled out over 8 hundred billion dollars to the financial community. These companies and people make nothing and create nothing except wealth for themselves."
True but irrelevant. One bad decision does not necessitate a second. And, the basic theory behind the Bailout is this is: "Let's help these bad companies through this time, and then regulate them in the future, so this doesn't happen again".
What would the concept be behind the Auto-Bailout? "Let's cover our debts now, but do nothing towards solving the long term problems"
----
The real question is this: What would an Auto-bailout ACTUALLY do? Will it make Big 3 Cars more attractive or more profitable? Will it give long-term job security to their employees? Will it bring these companies into the 21st century in terms of innovation?
Unfortunately, the answer to all 3 of these questions is: "NO".
So, this wouldn't be a Bailout, or a helping hand, it would be a stay of Execution.
Doesn't sounds like as much fun though. Anyway Kristy that wouldn't work either. You wouldn't make it 3 generations... if every eligable woman had 3 husbands in short order 2 out of 3 men in the world would be dead... or is that the real plan?
1. The US government hast spent a billion dollars to lure Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda plants to the US.
2. GM has the largest market share in the US and Canada while building cars that no one wants to buy. Wait... WAT?
3. Domestic automakers are burdened with the enormous cost of health care and pension for their workers. The health care and pensions for Japanese Automakers is funded through the government of Japan by the taxpayers in that country. The Japanese have been funding their companies on an ongoing basis but when the domestics hit a wall because of the financial community the people here say, "screw em."
4. GM’s overall sales fell 41 percent in November (Ford was down 30 percent, Honda was down 32 percent and Toyota was down 34 percent), what is happening in the industry points to something other than a failed business model for domestic automakers.
5. Foreign automakers benefit from ridiculously unfair trade. South Korea sold 700,000 units last year in the US and allowed the import of 5,000 units. This represents a trade deficit of 1.7 Billion. The trade deficit with Japan is 6.3 Billion.
There is a lot of layers to this important issue, and there is no easy answer but I stand by the fact that anyone who says, "Let'em go under!!" is ignorant about the facts, ignorant about the consequences and just plain ignorant for blabbing such a spiteful opinion when they obviously don't have a clue.
I live in a town of 35,000 people that has lost or is losing close to 5,000 automotive related jobs in the last year. These people are the faces I see when I drop my kids off at daycare, go to the skating rink or the mall. For anyone who can't get down off their soapbox long enough to turn their brain on for five minutes can eat a cock for all I care.
My two year old daughter is smart enough to not take a shit where she eats. Even when she is feeling spiteful. It is really unfortunate that so many people can't seem to figure that out for themselves.
Whats the point of his theory? That you can make the past fit into any model you define if you tweak it enough?
How is this Bad? Encouraging businesses to develop and produce here is INFINITELY better than Subsidising failing businesses.
One is called "investment" and the other is called "madness"
I'll explain in small words:
They make poor cars, so they have to sell them at a LOSS. See what I did there? Basic logic? Hence the reason their business model sucks. Better to scale down, make a car properly, efficiently, and profitably, but make FEWER.
Not in Canada, hence the reason the Canadian plants would still be profitable, and would QUICKLY REOPENED by a new owner. The infrastructure is too valuable to be left to rot.
Low tides lower all Ships. Ebbs occur, and when they do, poorly run companies fail. One of the reasons the cycle of the free market works.
But, did you notice that Toyota is still operating AT A PROFIT? Why? Proper business models.
Why would the Koreans want to buy over priced cars from the US? The only reason WE are still buying them are fear-mongering Bumper Stickers.
I'm not sure what the Literal definition of "hypocrite" is, but I'm pretty sure saying: "This is a complex issue" followed closely by "anyone who doesn't agree doesn't have a clue" qualifies you as one...
It's unfortunate that you're too short sighted to realize that the BEST thing for these people and their children, is to create a SUSTAINABLE method of generating income. Subsidizing is never the answer.
Is she smart enough to know that Indoor Plumbing caused a lot of Carpenters who built Outhouses to lose their jobs?
Thank god you weren't in charge then, or we'd still be shitting in the woods.
Actually, the healthcare costs for employess/retirees IS an issue for the Big 3 Canadian Auto manufacturers. The reason being that they offer so much beyond basic coverage for the employee and beneficiaries. My late Mother had a private room, home care, etc. all paid for by my Dad's pension benefits.
No. Agree to give the foreign companies money from public coffers but not offering it to the domestics is unfair. And to bring you up to speed since reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point, they are asking for a loan not a handout.
80% of GM's brands are above the industry median when it comes to quality. Or are simple facts above your basic logic?
Better check your facts on this one hero. If you think that Toyota is down 30% in sales since this credit fiasco and is still profitable over that period think again.
Can't really argue with that intelligence
You are 100% correct. You have no idea what the definition of hypocrite is.
Oh, I see what you did there...The only difference here is that while we no longer shit outdoors we still all have 2 cars in the driveway.
I stopped reading right here.....
I can do a google search to find piles of reports to the contrary. Can you provide one unbiased link to back up your claim?
Ratings | J.D. Power
2008 JD Power Initial Quality rankings
4 out 5 brands above the industry average. I took the liberty of omitting the Hummer brand since they represent less than 1% of GM's sales so you can call me on that if you want to be a nit. But you can at least admit that this noise about them building poor product is bullshit propaganda.