reread my post and then have an adult explain it to you.
meh, actually I'm bored of this now, Reef, msn me when you see my last.
basically I think you are over analyzing this hand. your not folding on the flop or turn no matter what comes so whether you get your chips in now or later, you are not going anywhere.
and you think he's calling your shove on the flop?
which one is more likely to happen?
Also which one is likely to get a bluff or a weird second pair move?
No... I don't expect him to call an all-in with this junk... but any additional monies you're gonna get when he hits some wacky 2 -pair is going to be offset when he hits holding QQ, AA or QT. There's 442 reasons to shove...
this player is raising me with a straight draw? If he is tight (as mentioned), I don't see it. If a K or J comes, I'm not folding my boat.
First off, raising on an open ended straight draw? Yes. A lot of tight players play aggressively when they are on a draw with more than 6 outs in hopes to take the pot down right away.
Raising if he has Q 9 pre-flop? Probably not, but I've seen it happen before when someone decides they want to take the blinds when everyone else is playing tight and limp in.
However, if he's smart and the BB calls his raise, he should expect a decent hand.
Either way, I still say shove for many reasons. I feel you are going to avoid more possible beats than if you flat call.
Lets take this to the next step.
You call the guy 100.
The turn comes - Qh
There are now two hearts on the board.
You bet your set, like you should. You make it 100 more to play. He pushes you all-in.
First off, raising on an open ended straight draw? Yes. A lot of tight players play aggressively when they are on a draw with more than 6 outs in hopes to take the pot down right away.
Raising if he has Q 9 pre-flop? Probably not, but I've seen it happen before when someone decides they want to take the blinds when everyone else is playing tight and limp in.
However, if he's smart and the BB calls his raise, he should expect a decent hand.
Either way, I still say shove for many reasons. I feel you are going to avoid more possible beats than if you flat call.
Lets take this to the next step.
You call the guy 100.
The turn comes - Qh
There are now two hearts on the board.
You bet your set, like you should. You make it 100 more to play. He pushes you all-in.
What do you do?
I will try to be more clear. MY CHIPS ARE GOING IN THE MIDDLE NO MATTER WHAT. I am calling as if I push, there is still the chance he may fold on the flop WHICH I DO NOT WANT. I would prefer to wait until the turn to get the rest of his chips in the middle. With $440 in the pot, he is not folding. The turn is irrelevant as either I push on the flop or push on the turn, all my chips are going in either way.
To answer your question, what do I do? I push. Why would I be scared of two hearts??
1. Button raise (could be a play at the pot)
2. The flop was bet out and then re-raised
3. Its a 2-5NL game
I would say the vast majority of players never bet out their set (I have seen it done a handful of times, I always do it because its fun to smash people after they re-pop me). You have to understand the average 2-5NL player at fallsview is not laying down their hand after they re-pop your bet. That is the key information. I am never flat calling this because what do you do on the turn:
1. You bet out a worse hand folds
2. You check and villian will check because they have no clue what you have.
At this point on the flop villian can't identify your hand and figures because you never raised preflop you may have a weak king or a draw. He is not giving you credit for JJ or KK so he knows his pair is good or his AK is good too.
While I have folded a set before it is a tough thing to do. For a lot of the reasons Mickey has said I push here on the flop. If he folds that's fine if he calls I hope I"m ahead. I don't flat call here against any fallsview player and hope he doesn't outdraw me.
While I have folded a set before it is a tough thing to do. For a lot of the reasons Mickey has said I push here on the flop. If he folds that's fine if he calls I hope I"m ahead. I don't flat call here against any fallsview player and hope he doesn't outdraw me.
You know I'm madly in love with you Joe...but re-read that and then ask yourself
1. Button raise (could be a play at the pot)
2. The flop was bet out and then re-raised
3. Its a 2-5NL game
I would say the vast majority of players never bet out their set (I have seen it done a handful of times, I always do it because its fun to smash people after they re-pop me). You have to understand the average 2-5NL player at fallsview is not laying down their hand after they re-pop your bet. That is the key information. I am never flat calling this because what do you do on the turn:
1. You bet out a worse hand folds 2. You check and villian will check because they have no clue what you have.
At this point on the flop villian can't identify your hand and figures because you never raised preflop you may have a weak king or a draw. He is not giving you credit for JJ or KK so he knows his pair is good or his AK is good too.
1.if he fold the turn bet, he'll fold the flop shovel....i don't see how one can call a shovel and not a bet here.
2.if he check behine, you know he is not strong enough to call an all-in bet. find a good amount to bet the river, and extra the max $$ out of him.
I still think calling line is better, I don't risk not get paid with my set.
if you didn't know, when you hit that set, you have to make 12x on your investment or you are losing money.
$360 profit is breakeven here. (hero call $30 to set mine)
pot so far $340 ($250 profit)
you like money? or do you like to lose money slowly?
if he check , he'll call at least 1/2 size bet at the river. if he hit that flop.
and you will make money.
something for you to think about.
No... I don't expect him to call an all-in with this junk... but any additional monies you're gonna get when he hits some wacky 2 -pair is going to be offset when he hits holding QQ, AA or QT. There's 442 reasons to shove...
Ok, let me get this straight...
You think that his two outs for aa/qq negates not only the Harrington 10% but also the amount of time our smallish bet on the turn..gets called or shoved by kq/k10/k9?
If he's got q/10 he's putting in a ridiculous amount of money bad to see one card..and we've done our job.
and that's before we get to 'wacky 2-pair's.
For Christ's sake he raised limpers from the button...the gayest thing I've ever heard is how many of you are willing to run him (our opponent) off this pot
Where did you read this? I thought you need 7-to-1 odds to set-mine, and lower with deep stacks. You don't need to win 12 times your call to make it correct to set-mine. Ooops, my carpool friend just phoned so we're off to Fallsview...
if you didn't know, when you hit that set, you have to make 12x on your investment or you are losing money.
$360 profit is breakeven here. (hero call $30 to set mine)
pot so far $340 ($250 profit)
you like money? or do you like to lose money slowly?
1.if he fold the turn bet, he'll fold the flop shovel....i don't see how one can call a shovel and not a bet here.
2.if he check behine, you know he is not strong enough to call an all-in bet. find a good amount to bet the river, and extra the max $$ out of him.
I still think calling line is better, I don't risk not get paid with my set.
if you didn't know, when you hit that set, you have to make 12x on your investment or you are losing money.
$360 profit is breakeven here. (hero call $30 to set mine)
pot so far $340 ($250 profit)
you like money? or do you like to lose money slowly?
if he check , he'll call at least 1/2 size bet at the river. if he hit that flop.
and you will make money.
something for you to think about.
1. Not necessarily...what happens if he has AA and another K comes on the turn...he may think he is good on the flop but the scare card on the turn shuts him down.
2. He is going to check behind because he doesn't know where he is at and now has control again over the hand.
In this situation the re-raise on the flop gives his hand strength away and basically lets you know he is not going anywhere on the flop. Get it in then instead of waiting for the turn bet.
I have seen this countless times where if people would have shoved they would have gotten maximum value. It's along the same lines when you flop a flush and you get re-raised, you know the nut draw is out there so stick your money in the middle and you will get called by the nut flush draw....when it doesn't complete you get paid, but if you just call and let him see the turn and river you aren't going to get any money on the river unless he makes his flush.
You also have the potential to be bluffed out when scare cards come. What happens if the board makes a 4 card straight in this situation. Are you folding the river??? He knows you have a big hand but because he has position on you he can bet you out in the end with air.
You know I'm madly in love with you Joe...but re-read that and then ask yourself
"why do I hate money so much?"
There is a reason my card protector at fallsview is a small jar of vaseline. I'm tired of taking it prison style there. I don't hate money I'd just rather get it in on the flop.
PS when did you fall madly in love with me? If I knew that I'd have asked you to go to Rama with me for poker and Bachman Cummins tomorrow night.
Fallsview 7 AM. The table is a mixture of tourists and regulars. I've never seen the guys in this hand before tonight. They came from a broken table. I've been playing small ball tight aggressive and slowly building my stack. 2/5 I have 900 I'm in the BB with red 77, 2 limpers tight button makes it 30, I call in the BB, 2 limpers call Flop is KJ7r Pot is 122 I bet half pot (60), 2 folds, button makes it 160 with 274 behind .... I more than cover him. The villain has been on the table for about 2 orbits. He's played and won one hand. He hasn't shown down any hands.
This is an automatic shove every time. The only thing beats you is a bigger set and because AA and AK and maybe QQ are all possible we have to get the chips in here.
If we assign your opponent KK-AA, AK, and JJ as a range vs your 77 on that flop you're ahead 70/30. So it's very standard and very +EV to get the chips in here.
I will try to be more clear. MY CHIPS ARE GOING IN THE MIDDLE NO MATTER WHAT. I am calling as if I push, there is still the chance he may fold on the flop WHICH I DO NOT WANT. I would prefer to wait until the turn to get the rest of his chips in the middle. With $440 in the pot, he is not folding. The turn is irrelevant as either I push on the flop or push on the turn, all my chips are going in either way.
To answer your question, what do I do? I push. Why would I be scared of two hearts??
Whoa, you like to yell, eh?
If you read my posts, you would know that I was one of the ones saying that your chips are going to be in the middle anyway, so why not just push now?
Either way, I have been saying to push on the flop.
There are two things that will happen if you push. One, he folds. Two, he calls.
If he folds, you take down a decent pot right now and lose nothing. Now, explain what is wrong with that to me!
Two, he calls. You are probably ahead and you will hopefully stay ahead. You are looking at gaining a lot more chips if he calls, which he probably will.
What's wrong with that? That's what I have been saying the whole time.
Also, the reason why I am saying what if a Qh comes up on the turn is because it's a scary card. He could have QQ or AK suited (hearts). There are a few hands here that are scary, and since all of your chips will likely go in the middle anyway, why not just get them in there now? I would perfer one of the above two to happen than sit there and wonder on the turn and the river if my cards are going to hold up.
If we assign your opponent KK-AA, AK, and JJ as a range vs your 77 on that flop you're ahead 70/30. So it's very standard and very +EV to get the chips in here.
How are you getting just kk-aa, ak, and jj as a range?
And THEN once you've adjusted to an actual 2-5nl LIVE players range for raising limpers from the button..
the question I have is HOW are you actually going to get chips in this pot and why are you pissing away chips from all the other likely hands?
Why are you willing take such a mediocre edge (ie: shoving against a range of jj, kk, aa, ak) but NOT willing to play with/against weaker hands?
I think that the fact that the opponent raised weakness from the button and then raised one perfect stack of red is being overlooked here.
I feel like he's just stepping on the throat of perceived weakness a lot of the time..
and therefore folds to our shove often.
***So let's let him do what he may very well just like to do.. pounce.
We get to the turn, think a little, pull out a stack of red, think a little...take 25-30 off and put the rest in..
creating the illusion that we're a: not confident with our hand, b: can be pushed off
(side note, important that he have over two stacks of reds left)
All the hands that are calling the shove on the flop are either shoving that bet on the turn OR calling it and then we shove the river. (presuming innocuous turn of course)
You guys are wayyyy too eager to shut down shop with a very good hand.
Also, the reason why I am saying what if a Qh comes up on the turn is because it's a scary card. He could have QQ or AK suited (hearts). There are a few hands here that are scary, and since all of your chips will likely go in the middle anyway, why not just get them in there now? I would perfer one of the above two to happen than sit there and wonder on the turn and the river if my cards are going to hold up.
I don't care what card comes on the turn, I am not folding trip sevens w this rainbow flop and a player raising into me. As noted previously, if this player is raising into me with A10 and he just hit his straight, I would get down on my knees and bow to him as the Grand Poobah of poker.
This hand is like a row of dominos with two separate paths that merge into one final result, i.e all my chips going in the middle.
Where did you read this? I thought you need 7-to-1 odds to set-mine, and lower with deep stacks. You don't need to win 12 times your call to make it correct to set-mine. Ooops, my carpool friend just phoned so we're off to Fallsview...
chance of hitting your set is 8-1
but set don't win 100%
so you need to win 12x of your investment to cover the time you don't win. and times you miss your set.
There are two things that will happen if you push. One, he folds. Two, he calls.
If he folds, you take down a decent pot right now and lose nothing. Now, explain what is wrong with that to me!
.
first, you think you don't lose money, that doesn't mean you don't lose money.
2nd. how about try to sell your set at better price. so far, your actual selling price is below your cost. it can't be good in the run long.
sometime you'll find idiot that will buy it at that price, and show you just TP, but those are what we call DONKS.
I don't care what card comes on the turn, I am not folding trip sevens w this rainbow flop and a player raising into me. As noted previously, if this player is raising into me with A10 and he just hit his straight, I would get down on my knees and bow to him as the Grand Poobah of poker.
This hand is like a row of dominos with two separate paths that merge into one final result, i.e all my chips going in the middle.
there is no question that all your money is going in.
because we know you have a SET.
you don't know what villian has, and if what he has is strong enough to call an all-in bet.
unless you have great read on villian, and knowing he will call.
you are risking villian get off the hand, and you not get pay off.
there is no question that all your money is going in.
because we know you have a SET.
you don't know what villian has, and if what he has is strong enough to call an all-in bet.
unless you have great read on villian, and knowing he will call.
you are risking villian get off the hand, and you not get pay off.
based the betting patterns up to the flop, and a player raising into hero, I don't see him folding on the turn w the amount of money already in the pot. This is my assumption.
based the betting patterns up to the flop, and a player raising into hero, I don't see him folding on the turn w the amount of money already in the pot. This is my assumption.
you finally said something right!
1. we all know that the hands that are calling on the flop are most likely calling on the turn.
2. we all want more of our opponent's chips in this pot
3. we are ALL prepared to go broke here
Remind me again why we aren't giving our opponent a chance to shove with the FALSE notion that we may fold on the turn.... instead of the popular "3 bet the flop and then jump on the table and do the 'I've got a monster' happy dance"?
Most people in a casino are there for action. I don't believe the villian goes anywhere if we shove on the flop. And even people who have a "tight" image at a casino aren't above raising JQs from the button with a bunch of limpers.
I don't think the villian will disappear, however Kristy believes he might. We all believe we need to get our money in and are willing to go broke with this hand. Without actually sitting at the table and getting a read on the villian I don't think there is one correct answer.
Most people in a casino are there for action. I don't believe the villian goes anywhere if we shove on the flop. And even people who have a "tight" image at a casino aren't above raising JQs from the button with a bunch of limpers.
I don't think the villian will disappear, however Kristy believes he might. We all believe we need to get our money in and are willing to go broke with this hand. Without actually sitting at the table and getting a read on the villian I don't think there is one correct answer.
You think that he calls off 265 more on the flop with qjs?
Folding out the KX's AA, QQ and bluffs is a disaster.
I like flat call and bet small on the turn. Pushing on the turn makes no sense for the reasons above.
With the pot already at $342, you are both pretty much committed. If you re-raise all-in, he only needs 27% equity in order to call ($274 / $990). He is unlikely to fold on the flop if he has AA, QQ, KJ QT, T9, etc.. Flat calling would be a mistake since a scare card can appear on the turn, where he may be able to make the fold.
So it's very standard and very +EV to get the chips in here.
Agreed. If this is a set over set hand just like my bust-out hand at Fallsview last week, then do what I do - file a complaint with 13CARDS that Fallsview Casino Resort.com must be rigged!
With the pot already at $342, you are both pretty much committed. If you re-raise all-in, he only needs 27% equity in order to call ($274 / $990). He is unlikely to fold on the flop if he has AA, QQ, KJ QT, T9, etc.. Flat calling would be a mistake since a scare card can appear on the turn, where he may be able to make the fold.
Agreed. If this is a set over set hand just like my bust-out hand at Fallsview last week, then do what I do - file a complaint with 13CARDS that Fallsview Casino Resort.com must be rigged!
Yup totally agree. Calling here and allowing a turn card to come may kill the action (as my previous post stated). Live poker is a much different beast then online. The psychological factors of actually putting money into the middle for most players (especially 2-5) is really a good indication of how strong their hand is. Its not like online where you can shove the turn with air and then say "based on my PT stats,blah blah, he has X range X % of times"
Life for the most part if someone is shoving their stack in the middle or re-raising they have a monster. I don't see many full stack bluffs at Fallsview because:
1. Most players can't fold
2. Most players don't know if they are strong or weak with their hand holding and all they know is they put $$$ in the middle so they have a chance.
I have seen guys flat call my 600 bets in a 5/5 game when I turn top set just to see if they can hit their miracle draw on the river. Sorry to say there are no implied odds to flat call a 600 dollar bet. Its either fold or shove.
If anyone has a chance to read Harrington on cash games they actually go through a similar model where it discusses % wise the frequency someone will call a particular sized bet based on their holdings and previous action.
There is also a passage in there that says if you are unsure of what the villian is holding and you have a big hand it is better to shove because there is a small % they the villian has a hand worth calling that you would not get full value any other way.
Obviously this is very elementary and works with new players that don't have a feel for hand ranges and player tendancies but I have used it on occasion and it has worked.
lol @ all you (distinguished gentleman who enjoy penii in and around their anus, which is their utmost redeeming quality) jumping in with strong opinions now that 'the pro' has spoken.
You're still all wrong, even if Jesus himself backs you.
Comments
basically I think you are over analyzing this hand. your not folding on the flop or turn no matter what comes so whether you get your chips in now or later, you are not going anywhere.
No... I don't expect him to call an all-in with this junk... but any additional monies you're gonna get when he hits some wacky 2 -pair is going to be offset when he hits holding QQ, AA or QT. There's 442 reasons to shove...
First off, raising on an open ended straight draw? Yes. A lot of tight players play aggressively when they are on a draw with more than 6 outs in hopes to take the pot down right away.
Raising if he has Q 9 pre-flop? Probably not, but I've seen it happen before when someone decides they want to take the blinds when everyone else is playing tight and limp in.
However, if he's smart and the BB calls his raise, he should expect a decent hand.
Either way, I still say shove for many reasons. I feel you are going to avoid more possible beats than if you flat call.
Lets take this to the next step.
You call the guy 100.
The turn comes - Qh
There are now two hearts on the board.
You bet your set, like you should. You make it 100 more to play. He pushes you all-in.
What do you do?
I will try to be more clear. MY CHIPS ARE GOING IN THE MIDDLE NO MATTER WHAT. I am calling as if I push, there is still the chance he may fold on the flop WHICH I DO NOT WANT. I would prefer to wait until the turn to get the rest of his chips in the middle. With $440 in the pot, he is not folding. The turn is irrelevant as either I push on the flop or push on the turn, all my chips are going in either way.
To answer your question, what do I do? I push. Why would I be scared of two hearts??
1. Button raise (could be a play at the pot)
2. The flop was bet out and then re-raised
3. Its a 2-5NL game
I would say the vast majority of players never bet out their set (I have seen it done a handful of times, I always do it because its fun to smash people after they re-pop me). You have to understand the average 2-5NL player at fallsview is not laying down their hand after they re-pop your bet. That is the key information. I am never flat calling this because what do you do on the turn:
1. You bet out a worse hand folds
2. You check and villian will check because they have no clue what you have.
At this point on the flop villian can't identify your hand and figures because you never raised preflop you may have a weak king or a draw. He is not giving you credit for JJ or KK so he knows his pair is good or his AK is good too.
You know I'm madly in love with you Joe...but re-read that and then ask yourself
"why do I hate money so much?"
1.if he fold the turn bet, he'll fold the flop shovel....i don't see how one can call a shovel and not a bet here.
2.if he check behine, you know he is not strong enough to call an all-in bet. find a good amount to bet the river, and extra the max $$ out of him.
I still think calling line is better, I don't risk not get paid with my set.
if you didn't know, when you hit that set, you have to make 12x on your investment or you are losing money.
$360 profit is breakeven here. (hero call $30 to set mine)
pot so far $340 ($250 profit)
you like money? or do you like to lose money slowly?
if he check , he'll call at least 1/2 size bet at the river. if he hit that flop.
and you will make money.
something for you to think about.
Ok, let me get this straight...
You think that his two outs for aa/qq negates not only the Harrington 10% but also the amount of time our smallish bet on the turn..gets called or shoved by kq/k10/k9?
If he's got q/10 he's putting in a ridiculous amount of money bad to see one card..and we've done our job.
and that's before we get to 'wacky 2-pair's.
For Christ's sake he raised limpers from the button...the gayest thing I've ever heard is how many of you are willing to run him (our opponent) off this pot
1. Not necessarily...what happens if he has AA and another K comes on the turn...he may think he is good on the flop but the scare card on the turn shuts him down.
2. He is going to check behind because he doesn't know where he is at and now has control again over the hand.
In this situation the re-raise on the flop gives his hand strength away and basically lets you know he is not going anywhere on the flop. Get it in then instead of waiting for the turn bet.
I have seen this countless times where if people would have shoved they would have gotten maximum value. It's along the same lines when you flop a flush and you get re-raised, you know the nut draw is out there so stick your money in the middle and you will get called by the nut flush draw....when it doesn't complete you get paid, but if you just call and let him see the turn and river you aren't going to get any money on the river unless he makes his flush.
You also have the potential to be bluffed out when scare cards come. What happens if the board makes a 4 card straight in this situation. Are you folding the river??? He knows you have a big hand but because he has position on you he can bet you out in the end with air.
There is a reason my card protector at fallsview is a small jar of vaseline. I'm tired of taking it prison style there. I don't hate money I'd just rather get it in on the flop.
PS when did you fall madly in love with me? If I knew that I'd have asked you to go to Rama with me for poker and Bachman Cummins tomorrow night.
This is an automatic shove every time. The only thing beats you is a bigger set and because AA and AK and maybe QQ are all possible we have to get the chips in here.
If we assign your opponent KK-AA, AK, and JJ as a range vs your 77 on that flop you're ahead 70/30. So it's very standard and very +EV to get the chips in here.
Whoa, you like to yell, eh?
If you read my posts, you would know that I was one of the ones saying that your chips are going to be in the middle anyway, so why not just push now?
Either way, I have been saying to push on the flop.
There are two things that will happen if you push. One, he folds. Two, he calls.
If he folds, you take down a decent pot right now and lose nothing. Now, explain what is wrong with that to me!
Two, he calls. You are probably ahead and you will hopefully stay ahead. You are looking at gaining a lot more chips if he calls, which he probably will.
What's wrong with that? That's what I have been saying the whole time.
Also, the reason why I am saying what if a Qh comes up on the turn is because it's a scary card. He could have QQ or AK suited (hearts). There are a few hands here that are scary, and since all of your chips will likely go in the middle anyway, why not just get them in there now? I would perfer one of the above two to happen than sit there and wonder on the turn and the river if my cards are going to hold up.
How are you getting just kk-aa, ak, and jj as a range?
And THEN once you've adjusted to an actual 2-5nl LIVE players range for raising limpers from the button..
the question I have is HOW are you actually going to get chips in this pot and why are you pissing away chips from all the other likely hands?
Why are you willing take such a mediocre edge (ie: shoving against a range of jj, kk, aa, ak) but NOT willing to play with/against weaker hands?
I think that the fact that the opponent raised weakness from the button and then raised one perfect stack of red is being overlooked here.
I feel like he's just stepping on the throat of perceived weakness a lot of the time..
and therefore folds to our shove often.
***So let's let him do what he may very well just like to do.. pounce.
We get to the turn, think a little, pull out a stack of red, think a little...take 25-30 off and put the rest in..
creating the illusion that we're a: not confident with our hand, b: can be pushed off
(side note, important that he have over two stacks of reds left)
All the hands that are calling the shove on the flop are either shoving that bet on the turn OR calling it and then we shove the river. (presuming innocuous turn of course)
You guys are wayyyy too eager to shut down shop with a very good hand.
I don't care what card comes on the turn, I am not folding trip sevens w this rainbow flop and a player raising into me. As noted previously, if this player is raising into me with A10 and he just hit his straight, I would get down on my knees and bow to him as the Grand Poobah of poker.
This hand is like a row of dominos with two separate paths that merge into one final result, i.e all my chips going in the middle.
YouTube - Over FOUR Million Dominoes - It's A New World Record
but set don't win 100%
so you need to win 12x of your investment to cover the time you don't win. and times you miss your set.
first, you think you don't lose money, that doesn't mean you don't lose money.
2nd. how about try to sell your set at better price. so far, your actual selling price is below your cost. it can't be good in the run long.
sometime you'll find idiot that will buy it at that price, and show you just TP, but those are what we call DONKS.
there is no question that all your money is going in.
because we know you have a SET.
you don't know what villian has, and if what he has is strong enough to call an all-in bet.
unless you have great read on villian, and knowing he will call.
you are risking villian get off the hand, and you not get pay off.
based the betting patterns up to the flop, and a player raising into hero, I don't see him folding on the turn w the amount of money already in the pot. This is my assumption.
you finally said something right!
1. we all know that the hands that are calling on the flop are most likely calling on the turn.
2. we all want more of our opponent's chips in this pot
3. we are ALL prepared to go broke here
Remind me again why we aren't giving our opponent a chance to shove with the FALSE notion that we may fold on the turn.... instead of the popular "3 bet the flop and then jump on the table and do the 'I've got a monster' happy dance"?
I don't believe I"ve seen it
And yes I think everyone here would probably go broke if they are beat on this hand. I maybe need some Kristy education to enhance my poker skills
I don't think the villian will disappear, however Kristy believes he might. We all believe we need to get our money in and are willing to go broke with this hand. Without actually sitting at the table and getting a read on the villian I don't think there is one correct answer.
You think that he calls off 265 more on the flop with qjs?
really?
Definately lots of good, better, best options.
Yup totally agree. Calling here and allowing a turn card to come may kill the action (as my previous post stated). Live poker is a much different beast then online. The psychological factors of actually putting money into the middle for most players (especially 2-5) is really a good indication of how strong their hand is. Its not like online where you can shove the turn with air and then say "based on my PT stats,blah blah, he has X range X % of times"
Life for the most part if someone is shoving their stack in the middle or re-raising they have a monster. I don't see many full stack bluffs at Fallsview because:
1. Most players can't fold
2. Most players don't know if they are strong or weak with their hand holding and all they know is they put $$$ in the middle so they have a chance.
I have seen guys flat call my 600 bets in a 5/5 game when I turn top set just to see if they can hit their miracle draw on the river. Sorry to say there are no implied odds to flat call a 600 dollar bet. Its either fold or shove.
i tell my chips i'll see them in hell before i shove here. if he is bluffing he isn't putting another chip in the pot anyway.
There is also a passage in there that says if you are unsure of what the villian is holding and you have a big hand it is better to shove because there is a small % they the villian has a hand worth calling that you would not get full value any other way.
Obviously this is very elementary and works with new players that don't have a feel for hand ranges and player tendancies but I have used it on occasion and it has worked.
You're still all wrong, even if Jesus himself backs you.