*Convince me of the "need" to play poker, to have premarital sex, to own a car, to listen to music etc etc. We live in a free country which means you have to convince someone they are guilty not convince someone you're not.*
There's quite a big difference in intentionally driving well over the speed limit and raising with 72o. I'm not about to kill someone if I raise with 72o. Nor am I about to endanger the lives of others when I play Aerosmith or Eagles too loud.
A cop can take away your car for a week...and you have no recourse. = police state.*
Simply enforcing a good law is not enforcing the concept of a police state. Jesus, take some responsibility. SPEEDING KILLS. You hear all the time how street racers have taken innocent lives and yet they walk away without a scratch. About time they got they're punishment, and if that means take away their license so be it. There is absolutely no difference between street racing and driving drunk.
*So all the police that travel that fast are unsafe? Please. Cars are made to go well in excess of 150km/h on roads that are made for it...ie 401. Nobody is suggesting that we travel 90km/h in residential roads. We're talking 400 series highways...*
Police are trained specificially on driving at excess speeds. Its their job. I don't know any other person other than stock car drivers, who have had this kind of training. Why? Because its' not their job, there's no need for it.
*If you don't speed on the 401 I'll eat my next speeding ticket. And if cars we're limited to 30+ then the max speed they'd go is 70km....good luck.
Not once did I say I didn't speed. I do. I've been known to go 10 to 15km over intown, and clip along the 400 series at 120 to 130. Is it necessary? No, absolutely not, and if I got nailed, I would take the ticket. But driving any faster than that is just inviting disaster. And I've still haven't read a solid argument for the need for that speed.
Tell me why a car, in this country, has a speedometer capable of showing speeds over 150km when there isn't a highway in this hemisphere where its allowed? There is no need to go that fast EVER. And there is no convincing argument to support it. People need to slow the hell down. The very same arguments were made prior to the new drunk driving laws, and then there were people who said the same things...police state...have no right to take my license...bullshit law...same with seat belt laws.
And I've still haven't read a solid argument for the need for that speed.
Mark said this too...and it is a stupid statement.
by that logic highways are unnecessary and should be shut down, we should all take the bus on 25km max roads...because the drivers are better trained and it is better for the enviroment...
in fact, we should just limit occupation possibilities to those with in walking distance and ban motorized transport altogether...
after all, NO ONE EVER GOT KILLED BY WALKING
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There is no level on which this is right, and all examples of government exercising parental authority are flawed. This is the basic principle that you life-nits cannot 'argue' away.
Don't get me wrong... I am not at all against punishing those who do more the 50 over the limit... even harshly.
What I am against is deceipt, profiling and skipping over the whole due process thingy. It starts with a fear campaign that allows them to call speeding 'street racing' now and enforce it with what ever will they want since the public is now on thier side. The public has fallen for it. Street racing is a tremendously dangerous act and now they have you associating that with someone doing 150 on an empty 401 at 2:00am. While dangerous and the police should be attempting to curb it it is no where near as dangerous as two cars racing each other through traffic at high speeds.
Then next it extends to profiling where an entire group of generally law abiding citizens is punished for the acts of the fringe few. You the people now think anyone with a modified car (legal or not) is likely a street racer or should at least be suspected of it. This is even against all logic since all cars are capable of street racing from the factory!!!
Now if I am driving around with an obviously illegal and unsafe modification to my car I deserve to be pulled over and punished. But that's not what is happening at all. It is pure profiling.
Profiling is wrong whether it's based on faith, race, sex, what you choose to wear or what fucking car you drive.
Each of these moves by the police is a gradual step yet each is a step closer to a police state where the public deems people guilty for looking like what a criminal is in thier minds and turn a blind eye to what the police do to them. It has already gone too far.
For anyone who thinks I should have less rights then you simply because I have after market rims on my car please accept a big old fuck you from the deepest regions of my heart. I guess all Muslims are terrorists too? You should pack up you stuff and move to the States.
This is a very touchy subject for me as I live on a very busy two lane portion of the highway that links Kitchener to SW Ontario (it sounds close to the area in question for the OP's gf's ticket).
I take my 9 and 4 year olds every morning to the end of our driveway to put them on the bus and at least 10 times in the past 2 years a vehicle traveling with excessive speed has either blown past a nearly stopped bus full of kids or has had to slam on the brakes and screech to a halt to avoid slamming into it. Each time my kids are on foot between our car and the bus just targets for these fools that need to get to work 2 minutes earlier.
To me dangerous driving is much more important to crack down on than a set excessive speed (149 kmph is a ticket 150 kmph is racing?). There are drivers that drive like a maniac weaving in and out of traffic doing 120 on the 401 that pose more of a hazard.....it's just much more difficult for the law to catch them.
Having said that no one realizes how dangerous pure speed can be until it goes beyond the point of their control, and toughening laws against it can't be a bad thing in the big picture.
"Having said that no one realizes how dangerous pure speed can be until it goes beyond the point of their control, and toughening laws against it can't be a bad thing in the big picture."
And with that blank cheque the police will rob you blind. Have limits and keep a close eye on them. Don't let them violate the Charter.
I personally know someone who got caught doing 60 over about 10 years ago before all of this. It ended up costing them $10,000 at the end of the day after legal fees, fines and the tripling of his and his wife's insurance rates for 3 years. He learned his lesson and hasn't been up that high since.
It's not like there weren't heafty punishments before, there were. But now the cops are raking in a tonne of cash and they have the public turning a blind eye. Do you think then that they will stop there or will want to go further?
I personally know someone who got caught doing 60 over about 10 years ago before all of this. It ended up costing them $10,000 at the end of the day after legal fees, fines and the tripling of his and his wife's insurance rates for 3 years. He learned his lesson and hasn't been up that high since.
It's not like there weren't heafty punishments before, there were. But now the cops are raking in a tonne of cash and they have the public turning a blind eye. Do you think then that they will stop there or will want to go further?
I'll bet everyone knows of someone that has lost a pile of money due to speeding.....yet people still do it and to higher excess. The logical next step is to increase penalties even further since people are NOT grasping the seriousness of the government to stop it.
What is your solution? The current penalties are harsh so just keep them the way they are despite the problem increasing. Really?
As AJ pointed out "No one has yet to post a convincing argument of WHY there is a need to do +50 over the limit."
Since people still speed regardless of the speed limit a penalty has to be set that will make people think different.
Speed 50 Km/hr is not racing but dangerous driving. You may be able to get your car up to 200 Km/hr but can you drive it properly? I bet that many people say "yes" but the answer is actually no.
The limits on the roads are there for a reason and that is the safety of the drivers and the people in the area around them.
But you can punish them and still keep thier rights under the charter intact.
I support a crack down on high speed driving. I do not support the method currently being used. This is not the yes no question they are making it out to be.
But you can punish them and still keep thier rights under the charter intact.
I support a crack down on high speed driving. I do not support the method currently being used. This is not the yes no question they are making it out to be.
What do you suggest to keep dangerous drivers off the road? While still keeping their rights?
Also remember there is no such thing as a "right to drive". Just like when you are 16 driving is a privilege not a right.
But you can punish them and still keep thier rights under the charter intact.
I support a crack down on high speed driving. I do not support the method currently being used. This is not the yes no question they are making it out to be people.
Because they have every right to speed up to 49 over and face normal tickets, fines etc. When they pass the 50 over threshold they break a law that comes with tougher punishments. You say it's against the charter while others are quite fine with it because it's doing something to cut down on a problem. You can raise the limit to 60 over or 80 over and there will still be people who are against it, I assume just less and less as the number goes up.
Now trying to find other avenues for fine monies and more appealing ways to punish offenders is nice but the people paid to do that job have already done it.
But that's just it. The easiest way to solve a problem is to just crack down on it and any innocent bystanders be damned. Where further, more right wing action by the police is rewarded with yet more revenue. That is a police state.
Those that understand why the Charter was written and why it is the highest law in this land understand what is wrong presumed guilt and lack of due process.
"break a law that comes with tougher punishments"
Again I have no issues with this, there are just ways to do it right. But the police see all of that as red tape and would rather be judge, jury and executioner.
"the people paid to do that job have already done it"
Those that understand why the Charter was written and why it is the highest law in this land understand what is wrong presumed guilt and lack of due process.
You're confusing Rights with Priviledges. As Chris said, driving is a privilege. Abuse it, lose it. That simple.
Actually I am not. You have these rights in Canada as a Canadian citizen no matter what you happen to be doing at the time including driving or taking a shit.
I have the right to drive down the street and not be pulled over and interrogated if I am breaking no laws. Many of you would take that from me because I have after market rims. Shame on you.
"You don't think driving +50kph over the limit isn't breaking the law??"
Wow. I mean seriously wow. That's what you read from my posts?
I don't know how much plainer to put this. Of course if I am breaking a law (INCLUDING SPEEDING!!!!!!!!!!) I should be pulled over and charged!!!!!!!!!! How many times have I said this already? How many times have I said I actually agree with stiffening the penalties for high speeds???
What I object to is NOT the crack down on speeding but the particular extreme methods being used in this whole 'street racing' campaign that are against the Charter!
Really, follow what I am objecting to, it's not that hard:
1) The confiscation and impounding of someone's property for a week without due process. The car might not even belong to the driver.
2) The the profiling and treatment of the entire group of car modifying hobbiests as street racers and the degredation of the entire groups rights. In this broad dragnet completly innocent people breaking no laws are being profiled and having thier rights violated. If I am breaking no laws I should be free to drive down the street... I currently am not.
3) The high fines going to the police force (I am not against high fines).
Some of you guys see red as soon as you see my opposition... but please read the entire post with a level head.
"The rest of your post is irrelevant and exaggerated."
Since you didn't even follow the one statement please hold off on judging the rest.
2) The the profiling and treatment of the entire group of car modifying hobbiests as street racers and the degredation of the entire groups rights. In this broad dragnet completly innocent people breaking no laws are being profiled and having thier rights violated. If I am breaking no laws I should be free to drive down the street... I currently am not.
I had a big post written but trashed it cause I didn't think most people would understand. I don't think most people will be able to look at the other side of the argument as they have yet to experience the discrimination that goes on between cops and modified car owners. They have never left a car show and been pulled over for no reason, other than to have their car inspected. (My car is pretty much stock, just lowered).
The Awesome is not arguing that speeding is breaking the law, thats only a part of it. It is the enforcement and the power that cops now have as the judge/jury. And this is not because you might have been speeding, rev your car at the lights and they can label you as a drag racer and impound your car.
The Awesome is not arguing that speeding is breaking the law, thats only a part of it. It is the enforcement and the power that cops now have as the judge/jury. And this is not because you might have been speeding, rev your car at the lights and they can label you as a drag racer and impound your car.
[FONT="]Driving +50 Km/hr is excessive and so is the penalty for it.
Just because we are having this discussion means people are not taking the law serious.
Again driving 50 Km/hr over is dangerous and the cause of that danger is taken away for a short period of time.
If some one had a registered gun and then shot another person or used the gun in a dangerous manner, the police then take that gun away from that person.
What if it's mom's car? Or you lend your car to a friend?
Why are they going even further then what they do for drunk drivers?
Take the plate off the car forcing the driver to tow it and take the license for 24 hour hours. Then punish them heavily at trial if convicted. That is quite reasonable if you think about it.
Ah crap. I should change my avatar cuz those are my rims. lol
50+km/hr is definitely dangerous if you don't know how to handle you car. Punish them, yes. Label them as street racers? No. It's speeding.
They should also punish those who drive well below the speed limit, especially on the 400 series highways. Going 80km/hr normally when everyone else is going at the speed limit is just as dangerous.
"Punish them, yes. Label them as street racers? No. It's speeding."
Bingo. Don't fall for the lie, we the public are being intentionally mislead. It doesn't look like that big a deal because each step is small. But allow them to keep stepping unchecked while you turn a blind eye and they will move a long way.
That's why statements like this should scare the shit out of you:
"Police see these two groups - the car enthusiasts and the street racers - as mostly one and the same." Link
They have gone even farther and labelled all car enthusiasts as street racers! That is so fucked up! And many of you don't care to look at what is really happening.
Simply enforcing a good law is not enforcing the concept of a police state. Jesus, take some responsibility. SPEEDING KILLS. You hear all the time how street racers have taken innocent lives and yet they walk away without a scratch. About time they got they're punishment, and if that means take away their license so be it. There is absolutely no difference between street racing and driving drunk.
1. Jesus has nothing to do with it. And whom are you suggesting take responsibility? So in your mind "SPEEDING KILLS" Just only at 50km over right? Or your 130 doesn't kill right. This whole argument is about the police taking your car away without a court date. The police in this case are the judge/prosecution and jury. Give me a ticket and a court date....then I'll get a fair punishment. And street racers are brutal.....but we're not talking about racing....we're talking about speeding. If you really believe that they're one and the same, no police agent does. But they'll take the $2000 thank you.
Not once did I say I didn't speed. I do. I've been known to go 10 to 15km over intown, and clip along the 400 series at 120 to 130. Is it necessary? No, absolutely not, and if I got nailed, I would take the ticket. But driving any faster than that is just inviting disaster. And I've still haven't read a solid argument for the need for that speed.
2. I'll provide my reason for driving 50 over when you provide yours for driving 30 over. The difference is so minimal as to be ridiculous. So you're cool with an arbitrary cut off just below your personally acceptable limit right? I haven't read your solid argument as to why you should be allowed to own a car and admit to driving at 30 over. If the punishment is changed to capital punishment for 2 km over....you'd be upset with it too. (hyperbole but only by degrees)
Law might be unpopular, but it isn't wrong.
3. If you believe that something is right just because it's a law...then you're a pretty big sheep.
The 'privellege not right' crowd makes me want to puke.
when you EITHER apply or strip it universally and on a preset standard without deviation for the exceptional or less worthy you create something so close to a right that the two words are nearly interchangeable.
I have a theory about pokerforum debates that I intend to apply to the next one...
The long individual posters are automatically more right than the donkeys tossing around catch phrases.
in this instance: 'don't see the need for speed' 'privellege, not a right' loses, they're not actually responding with any level of (group) intelligence to what Mike is actually saying
The 'privellege not right' crowd makes me want to puke.
when you EITHER apply or strip it universally and on a preset standard without deviation for the exceptional or less worthy you create something so close to a right that the two words are nearly interchangeable.
I have a theory about pokerforum debates that I intend to apply to the next one...
The long individual posters are automatically more right than the donkeys tossing around catch phrases.
in this instance: 'don't see the need for speed' 'privellege, not a right' loses, they're not actually responding with any level of (group) intelligence to what Mike is actually saying
It is a privilege not a right. In fact it is such a privilege people need to take a test before they can even drive. (Legally)
There are two groups here; the first group is saying the punishment fits, the second says it does not.
Those that disagree the punishment is too strict I would love to here what they would suggest to stop people from speeding excessively. (40 Km/hr +)
Again to go back to gun control, (again another item people need to have a license and is a privilege not a right.) if some one is using their legally obtained gun in an unsafe dangerous manner then they would have their gun taken away from them, and I don’t thing any one would argue differently.
This is no different then some one operating a car in excess of 50Km/Hr over the speed limit. This is operating your car in a dangerous manner.
The speed limits are determined to be a safe speed for the sounding area not just the cars on them. (I’ll even say that they are manufactured in a way that people can operator their vehicles on them 20 Km/Hr over the limit with out comprising much in the way of safety.) Going excessively over the speed limit is dangerous to the driver and those around them. And public safety comes first.
"Those that disagree the punishment is too strict I would love to here what they would suggest to stop people from speeding excessively. (40 Km/hr +) "
I already have, twice.
It's not a matter of the severity of the punishment it's a matter of the legality of it to the highest legal document in our Country. I am all for serious punishments for going 50 over through the proper channels.
And I object to the fear campaign being waged. So now 50kms over is 'street racing'... and being a car enthusiast is 'street racing'. What's next? It blows my mind people don't see the problem here.
If some one had a registered gun and then shot another person or used the gun in a dangerous manner, the police then take that gun away from that person.
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I think a better idea would be to close all the gun ranges in the area so that nobody knows how to shoot a gun.
Another jab at lack of a better term, "gay" some of these bandaid solutions.
It is a privilege not a right. In fact it is such a privilege people need to take a test before they can even drive. (Legally)
you're one of the reasons I added the "(group)"
This sentence suggests that you've not understood my point. It becomes nearly a right of those able to exist within a preset (passing the test as you mentioned) The 'privellege' idea is nonsense and doesn't fly when it comes to punishments being handed out the way it is.
(or for mildly anarchistic Kristy...handed out at all)
First, to impound for a week is nonsense
Second, to have cops with the right to impound for a week (esp. regardless of ownership) is nonsense
Third, I'm still tired of being penalized because others are idiots.
I generally make good choices, and if I were wrong...well I'll never hear the end of it when I'm rocking out with Hendrix and Darwin in Hell.
Racing doesn't always mean 2 people competing, it also means just going fast (such as "I'm racing to get this done"). "Street racing" is a legitimate description of going 50+, whether by the clearly defined legislated or just by the dictionary. I will concede that the perception being given is obviously different, but I'm not too concerned about the perception of people who break the law.
I can see the concern about the apparent loss of due process, but it's one I can accept. I'd hate to see somebody get pulled over, just given a ticket, and then go on to kill somebody. Does this give the police additional power, yes. But maybe monitoring their use of that power more closely and punishing the officers who abuse it makes more sense thatn taking this power away totally?
I'll show a bit of my ignorance though, and ask a bit about the whole modded car issue. I've heard lots on the other issues involved (like 50+, due process, etc.), but not a lot on this one. Also, if it is the issue I'm thinking it is, I don't actually see anything in the legislation that specifically covers this (and it seems different because it's about perception or possible profiling rather than being caught in the act of breaking the law). Could you (Awesome, actyper, or somebody else with first-hand knowledge) comment a bit, please? Examples like actyper's are nice/helpful, but I'm also curious what specific part of the law they are using in these cases since I just don't see it.
Third, I'm still tired of being penalized because others are idiots.
I generally make good choices, and if I were wrong...well I'll never hear the end of it when I'm rocking out with Hendrix and Darwin in Hell.
Aren't we all.
But the laws are there to protect us from the idiots and the idiots from themselves.
"Those that disagree the punishment is too strict I would love to here what they would suggest to stop people from speeding excessively. (40 Km/hr +) "
I already have, twice.
It's not a matter of the severity of the punishment it's a matter of the legality of it to the highest legal document in our Country. I am all for serious punishments for going 50 over through the proper channels.
And I object to the fear campaign being waged. So now 50kms over is 'street racing'... and being a car enthusiast is 'street racing'. What's next? It blows my mind people don't see the problem here.
If they suspended your license for 1 week do you think it would work? Does it work with drunk drivers?
If they held your car as evidence for an upcoming court case only to be return afterwards would that be better?
Comments
Where do I start?
*Convince me of the "need" to play poker, to have premarital sex, to own a car, to listen to music etc etc. We live in a free country which means you have to convince someone they are guilty not convince someone you're not.*
There's quite a big difference in intentionally driving well over the speed limit and raising with 72o. I'm not about to kill someone if I raise with 72o. Nor am I about to endanger the lives of others when I play Aerosmith or Eagles too loud.
A cop can take away your car for a week...and you have no recourse. = police state.*
Simply enforcing a good law is not enforcing the concept of a police state. Jesus, take some responsibility. SPEEDING KILLS. You hear all the time how street racers have taken innocent lives and yet they walk away without a scratch. About time they got they're punishment, and if that means take away their license so be it. There is absolutely no difference between street racing and driving drunk.
*So all the police that travel that fast are unsafe? Please. Cars are made to go well in excess of 150km/h on roads that are made for it...ie 401. Nobody is suggesting that we travel 90km/h in residential roads. We're talking 400 series highways...*
Police are trained specificially on driving at excess speeds. Its their job. I don't know any other person other than stock car drivers, who have had this kind of training. Why? Because its' not their job, there's no need for it.
*If you don't speed on the 401 I'll eat my next speeding ticket. And if cars we're limited to 30+ then the max speed they'd go is 70km....good luck.
Not once did I say I didn't speed. I do. I've been known to go 10 to 15km over intown, and clip along the 400 series at 120 to 130. Is it necessary? No, absolutely not, and if I got nailed, I would take the ticket. But driving any faster than that is just inviting disaster. And I've still haven't read a solid argument for the need for that speed.
Tell me why a car, in this country, has a speedometer capable of showing speeds over 150km when there isn't a highway in this hemisphere where its allowed? There is no need to go that fast EVER. And there is no convincing argument to support it. People need to slow the hell down. The very same arguments were made prior to the new drunk driving laws, and then there were people who said the same things...police state...have no right to take my license...bullshit law...same with seat belt laws.
Law might be unpopular, but it isn't wrong.
Mark said this too...and it is a stupid statement.
by that logic highways are unnecessary and should be shut down, we should all take the bus on 25km max roads...because the drivers are better trained and it is better for the enviroment...
in fact, we should just limit occupation possibilities to those with in walking distance and ban motorized transport altogether...
after all, NO ONE EVER GOT KILLED BY WALKING
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There is no level on which this is right, and all examples of government exercising parental authority are flawed. This is the basic principle that you life-nits cannot 'argue' away.
What I am against is deceipt, profiling and skipping over the whole due process thingy. It starts with a fear campaign that allows them to call speeding 'street racing' now and enforce it with what ever will they want since the public is now on thier side. The public has fallen for it. Street racing is a tremendously dangerous act and now they have you associating that with someone doing 150 on an empty 401 at 2:00am. While dangerous and the police should be attempting to curb it it is no where near as dangerous as two cars racing each other through traffic at high speeds.
Then next it extends to profiling where an entire group of generally law abiding citizens is punished for the acts of the fringe few. You the people now think anyone with a modified car (legal or not) is likely a street racer or should at least be suspected of it. This is even against all logic since all cars are capable of street racing from the factory!!!
Now if I am driving around with an obviously illegal and unsafe modification to my car I deserve to be pulled over and punished. But that's not what is happening at all. It is pure profiling.
Profiling is wrong whether it's based on faith, race, sex, what you choose to wear or what fucking car you drive.
Each of these moves by the police is a gradual step yet each is a step closer to a police state where the public deems people guilty for looking like what a criminal is in thier minds and turn a blind eye to what the police do to them. It has already gone too far.
For anyone who thinks I should have less rights then you simply because I have after market rims on my car please accept a big old fuck you from the deepest regions of my heart. I guess all Muslims are terrorists too? You should pack up you stuff and move to the States.
I take my 9 and 4 year olds every morning to the end of our driveway to put them on the bus and at least 10 times in the past 2 years a vehicle traveling with excessive speed has either blown past a nearly stopped bus full of kids or has had to slam on the brakes and screech to a halt to avoid slamming into it. Each time my kids are on foot between our car and the bus just targets for these fools that need to get to work 2 minutes earlier.
To me dangerous driving is much more important to crack down on than a set excessive speed (149 kmph is a ticket 150 kmph is racing?). There are drivers that drive like a maniac weaving in and out of traffic doing 120 on the 401 that pose more of a hazard.....it's just much more difficult for the law to catch them.
Having said that no one realizes how dangerous pure speed can be until it goes beyond the point of their control, and toughening laws against it can't be a bad thing in the big picture.
And with that blank cheque the police will rob you blind. Have limits and keep a close eye on them. Don't let them violate the Charter.
I personally know someone who got caught doing 60 over about 10 years ago before all of this. It ended up costing them $10,000 at the end of the day after legal fees, fines and the tripling of his and his wife's insurance rates for 3 years. He learned his lesson and hasn't been up that high since.
It's not like there weren't heafty punishments before, there were. But now the cops are raking in a tonne of cash and they have the public turning a blind eye. Do you think then that they will stop there or will want to go further?
I'll bet everyone knows of someone that has lost a pile of money due to speeding.....yet people still do it and to higher excess. The logical next step is to increase penalties even further since people are NOT grasping the seriousness of the government to stop it.
What is your solution? The current penalties are harsh so just keep them the way they are despite the problem increasing. Really?
How about stiffer penalties after your day in court?
Why not take away your license on the spot for 24 hours and allow you to tow your car home?
Why not hefty fines that go to charity rather then back into the police revenue stream to keep them more impartial?
Why is due process so expendable?
I have kids too and I want people to slow down. But I will not let my fears degrade the rights of my fellow man blindly.
Since people still speed regardless of the speed limit a penalty has to be set that will make people think different.
Speed 50 Km/hr is not racing but dangerous driving. You may be able to get your car up to 200 Km/hr but can you drive it properly? I bet that many people say "yes" but the answer is actually no.
The limits on the roads are there for a reason and that is the safety of the drivers and the people in the area around them.
I support a crack down on high speed driving. I do not support the method currently being used. This is not the yes no question they are making it out to be.
What do you suggest to keep dangerous drivers off the road? While still keeping their rights?
Also remember there is no such thing as a "right to drive". Just like when you are 16 driving is a privilege not a right.
Because they have every right to speed up to 49 over and face normal tickets, fines etc. When they pass the 50 over threshold they break a law that comes with tougher punishments. You say it's against the charter while others are quite fine with it because it's doing something to cut down on a problem. You can raise the limit to 60 over or 80 over and there will still be people who are against it, I assume just less and less as the number goes up.
Now trying to find other avenues for fine monies and more appealing ways to punish offenders is nice but the people paid to do that job have already done it.
Those that understand why the Charter was written and why it is the highest law in this land understand what is wrong presumed guilt and lack of due process.
"break a law that comes with tougher punishments"
Again I have no issues with this, there are just ways to do it right. But the police see all of that as red tape and would rather be judge, jury and executioner.
"the people paid to do that job have already done it"
And they are thus encouraged to go further.
You're confusing Rights with Priviledges. As Chris said, driving is a privilege. Abuse it, lose it. That simple.
I have the right to drive down the street and not be pulled over and interrogated if I am breaking no laws. Many of you would take that from me because I have after market rims. Shame on you.
The rest of your post is irrelevant and exaggerated.
Wow. I mean seriously wow. That's what you read from my posts?
I don't know how much plainer to put this. Of course if I am breaking a law (INCLUDING SPEEDING!!!!!!!!!!) I should be pulled over and charged!!!!!!!!!! How many times have I said this already? How many times have I said I actually agree with stiffening the penalties for high speeds???
What I object to is NOT the crack down on speeding but the particular extreme methods being used in this whole 'street racing' campaign that are against the Charter!
Really, follow what I am objecting to, it's not that hard:
1) The confiscation and impounding of someone's property for a week without due process. The car might not even belong to the driver.
2) The the profiling and treatment of the entire group of car modifying hobbiests as street racers and the degredation of the entire groups rights. In this broad dragnet completly innocent people breaking no laws are being profiled and having thier rights violated. If I am breaking no laws I should be free to drive down the street... I currently am not.
3) The high fines going to the police force (I am not against high fines).
Some of you guys see red as soon as you see my opposition... but please read the entire post with a level head.
"The rest of your post is irrelevant and exaggerated."
Since you didn't even follow the one statement please hold off on judging the rest.
I had a big post written but trashed it cause I didn't think most people would understand. I don't think most people will be able to look at the other side of the argument as they have yet to experience the discrimination that goes on between cops and modified car owners. They have never left a car show and been pulled over for no reason, other than to have their car inspected. (My car is pretty much stock, just lowered).
The Awesome is not arguing that speeding is breaking the law, thats only a part of it. It is the enforcement and the power that cops now have as the judge/jury. And this is not because you might have been speeding, rev your car at the lights and they can label you as a drag racer and impound your car.
[FONT="]Driving +50 Km/hr is excessive and so is the penalty for it.
Just because we are having this discussion means people are not taking the law serious.
Again driving 50 Km/hr over is dangerous and the cause of that danger is taken away for a short period of time.
If some one had a registered gun and then shot another person or used the gun in a dangerous manner, the police then take that gun away from that person.
[/FONT]
Why are they going even further then what they do for drunk drivers?
Take the plate off the car forcing the driver to tow it and take the license for 24 hour hours. Then punish them heavily at trial if convicted. That is quite reasonable if you think about it.
50+km/hr is definitely dangerous if you don't know how to handle you car. Punish them, yes. Label them as street racers? No. It's speeding.
They should also punish those who drive well below the speed limit, especially on the 400 series highways. Going 80km/hr normally when everyone else is going at the speed limit is just as dangerous.
Bingo. Don't fall for the lie, we the public are being intentionally mislead. It doesn't look like that big a deal because each step is small. But allow them to keep stepping unchecked while you turn a blind eye and they will move a long way.
That's why statements like this should scare the shit out of you:
"Police see these two groups - the car enthusiasts and the street racers - as mostly one and the same."
Link
They have gone even farther and labelled all car enthusiasts as street racers! That is so fucked up! And many of you don't care to look at what is really happening.
Enjoy.
when you EITHER apply or strip it universally and on a preset standard without deviation for the exceptional or less worthy you create something so close to a right that the two words are nearly interchangeable.
I have a theory about pokerforum debates that I intend to apply to the next one...
The long individual posters are automatically more right than the donkeys tossing around catch phrases.
in this instance: 'don't see the need for speed' 'privellege, not a right' loses, they're not actually responding with any level of (group) intelligence to what Mike is actually saying
It is a privilege not a right. In fact it is such a privilege people need to take a test before they can even drive. (Legally)
There are two groups here; the first group is saying the punishment fits, the second says it does not.
Those that disagree the punishment is too strict I would love to here what they would suggest to stop people from speeding excessively. (40 Km/hr +)
Again to go back to gun control, (again another item people need to have a license and is a privilege not a right.) if some one is using their legally obtained gun in an unsafe dangerous manner then they would have their gun taken away from them, and I don’t thing any one would argue differently.
This is no different then some one operating a car in excess of 50Km/Hr over the speed limit. This is operating your car in a dangerous manner.
The speed limits are determined to be a safe speed for the sounding area not just the cars on them. (I’ll even say that they are manufactured in a way that people can operator their vehicles on them 20 Km/Hr over the limit with out comprising much in the way of safety.) Going excessively over the speed limit is dangerous to the driver and those around them. And public safety comes first.
I already have, twice.
It's not a matter of the severity of the punishment it's a matter of the legality of it to the highest legal document in our Country. I am all for serious punishments for going 50 over through the proper channels.
And I object to the fear campaign being waged. So now 50kms over is 'street racing'... and being a car enthusiast is 'street racing'. What's next? It blows my mind people don't see the problem here.
I think a better idea would be to close all the gun ranges in the area so that nobody knows how to shoot a gun.
Another jab at lack of a better term, "gay" some of these bandaid solutions.
you're one of the reasons I added the "(group)"
This sentence suggests that you've not understood my point. It becomes nearly a right of those able to exist within a preset (passing the test as you mentioned) The 'privellege' idea is nonsense and doesn't fly when it comes to punishments being handed out the way it is.
(or for mildly anarchistic Kristy...handed out at all)
First, to impound for a week is nonsense
Second, to have cops with the right to impound for a week (esp. regardless of ownership) is nonsense
Third, I'm still tired of being penalized because others are idiots.
I generally make good choices, and if I were wrong...well I'll never hear the end of it when I'm rocking out with Hendrix and Darwin in Hell.
I can see the concern about the apparent loss of due process, but it's one I can accept. I'd hate to see somebody get pulled over, just given a ticket, and then go on to kill somebody. Does this give the police additional power, yes. But maybe monitoring their use of that power more closely and punishing the officers who abuse it makes more sense thatn taking this power away totally?
I'll show a bit of my ignorance though, and ask a bit about the whole modded car issue. I've heard lots on the other issues involved (like 50+, due process, etc.), but not a lot on this one. Also, if it is the issue I'm thinking it is, I don't actually see anything in the legislation that specifically covers this (and it seems different because it's about perception or possible profiling rather than being caught in the act of breaking the law). Could you (Awesome, actyper, or somebody else with first-hand knowledge) comment a bit, please? Examples like actyper's are nice/helpful, but I'm also curious what specific part of the law they are using in these cases since I just don't see it.
Aren't we all.
But the laws are there to protect us from the idiots and the idiots from themselves.
If they suspended your license for 1 week do you think it would work? Does it work with drunk drivers?
If they held your car as evidence for an upcoming court case only to be return afterwards would that be better?