First player gave up the pot by saying "nice call", wanted to see what second player called with, then trys to get half the pot with a lesser hand by saying the board being mucked means there's no "winner".
My ruling: Player one = loser. Here is the proof. "...first player says 'hold on, no one has shown their cards yet'..." This statement combined with his actions afterwards means he wanted a showdown where the caller shows first where is K high might still be good but doesn't want to show it if it isn't. Some players are so pathetic that they think they're so good that if they can keep their cards unexposed and get others to show, then they'll have the best of it. Of course, angleshooting to try to win half a pot where your hand was second best will also give you the best of it.
Didn't you state earlier in the thread that you had never even played in the establishment before? So are you like one of those guys who writes a critique on a movie he never even saw?
These discussions keep going in the same direction. My point is that taking blaming other people for being human is a lot easier than being responsible for your own self. Usually the people who are the most critical of others never even look at what they bring to the table. They can make a situation better by affecting what they actually CAN control, themselves.
What days/times will you be visiting Fallsview? I work this weekend and would like to say hello.
I will be arriving between noon and 2 pm on Friday, and will be playing on Saturday/sunday whenever I get there. Going to Taco and tequilla for Saturday dinner. I will be around all weekend.
First player gave up the pot by saying "nice call", wanted to see what second player called with, then trys to get half the pot with a lesser hand by saying the board being mucked means there's no "winner".
No. "Nice call" isn't the verbal equivalent of "I fold". Loser might be angling, but that doesn't mean he relinquishes the pot.
Wtf is the dealer clearing the board/awarding a pot, when neither hand has been mucked or tabled? Is he psychic or incompetent?
Maybe they're just afraid of doing it wrong because they know what will happen.
Although this is pretty funny, it's unfortunately probably not that far off. People aren't apt to table hands quickly and give up their death grip on their hole cards (or the board if we get that manhole cover) if the dealers are repeatedly incorrectly mucking hands/awarding pots incorrectly.
Add the fact that you're on a session and the dealers and players are slow and the management is always right -> 10 pissed off players -> 10 jackasses more likely to angle/slowroll/ be jackasses to other players/dealers/management -> dealers/management that don't give a shit because the players are all a bunch of douches. Sounds like a quality environment to play in eh?
If you want to improve the room, quit fucking up, and stop being condescending to the players. On the players' side, the few twits that are acting like morons need to learn a few generic things about decent poker etiquette.
I think everyone was jumping on his throat, then he got overly defensive (13 Cards). Anytime something goes wrong at FV (admittedly often), people are a bit too harsh on 13 Cards when he tries to defend FV (again, I agree FV seems to have quite a few issues).
First player gave up the pot by saying "nice call", wanted to see what second player called with, then trys to get half the pot with a lesser hand by saying the board being mucked means there's no "winner".
My ruling: Player one = loser. Here is the proof. "...first player says 'hold on, no one has shown their cards yet'..." This statement combined with his actions afterwards means he wanted a showdown where the caller shows first where is K high might still be good but doesn't want to show it if it isn't. Some players are so pathetic that they think they're so good that if they can keep their cards unexposed and get others to show, then they'll have the best of it. Of course, angleshooting to try to win half a pot where your hand was second best will also give you the best of it.
Pathetic really.
I agree player 1 was angle shooting (he thought he lost when he was called) & is a pathetic loser. He wants the caller to show 1st so he can still muck his K high w/o showing the table (even though he was the aggressor), yet still be able to hold onto his K high in case it's good. Unfortunately, players like him are common at FV, they refuse to muck in case their marginal hand is good yet refuse to show 1st like they're supposed to as they're the aggressor, unless the dealer "yells" at them to show. They think they're so clever.
I doubt I will be there during your hours since I like to play early morning (10 am or so) until mid afternoon, early evening then can go out and have dinner etc. Given I'm there all weekend I don't see an 18 hour poker session coming but you never know. Kristy might show up and corrupt me with her public display of Assholeness....:) Love ya Kristy.
But as is common in poker when I'm there All Depends.
I screwed up....I'll just eat it. I didn't communicate perfectly with my customer.....I'll eat it. I made you wait a little bit to see me...I'll discount you.
Think about what this says to your customers. It tells them that your service or product has no real value in the marketplace, that you have nothing to offer that is different or better than the next guy so at the first opportunity you will drop your pants and get it fed to you.
Maybe you should re-read my post. I did not say I "drop my pants". Depending on the situation and the mistake I may adjust the price. Maybe the product. Or maybe just improve the service. Just like poker, it depends.
If we make a mistake we make up for it one way or another. I repeat, when we have made the mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esool
....
Having said that, when I or one of my staff makes a mistake, the first thing I do is accept responsibility, the second is to compensate the customer.
Either with price,
service
or product.
Otherwise they lose that warm feeling which has a negative impact on the short and long term effects of my company.
No. "Nice call" isn't the verbal equivalent of "I fold". Loser might be angling, but that doesn't mean he relinquishes the pot.
Wtf is the dealer clearing the board/awarding a pot, when neither hand has been mucked or tabled? Is he psychic or incompetent?
Although this is pretty funny, it's unfortunately probably not that far off. People aren't apt to table hands quickly and give up their death grip on their hole cards (or the board if we get that manhole cover) if the dealers are repeatedly incorrectly mucking hands/awarding pots incorrectly.
Add the fact that you're on a session and the dealers and players are slow and the management is always right -> 10 pissed off players -> 10 jackasses more likely to angle/slowroll/ be jackasses to other players/dealers/management -> dealers/management that don't give a shit because the players are all a bunch of douches. Sounds like a quality environment to play in eh?
If you want to improve the room, quit fucking up, and stop being condescending to the players. On the players' side, the few twits that are acting like morons need to learn a few generic things about decent poker etiquette.
EXCELLENT post. This is so true. Just clean that entire act up, PLEASE. FV is one of the worst poker rooms anywhere.
ha ha. another good one yesterday. the dealer wasn't being very attentive as the hockey game was on beside our table and it was near the end of the current session and he was chatting with the next dealer about something while one of the players was contemplating a big call on the turn. that player called, bringing the pot to 400+ and domenic, for some reason grabs the mucked cards and the burn cards and sticks them on top of the deck, as if he is getting ready to shuffle?
once the players pointed this out, i think he was trying to resolve it himself (i.e. picking the muck off the top of the deck). when the players objected, one suggested the two remaining players just chop the pot. nice idea when we are on a session fee. (one of the players even offered to muck and settle it up privately but for some reason that was a no go, too.) so the floor had to come over. he decided the hand should be cancelled and everyone be given their money back (right/wrong i don't know?) the two guys in the hand weren't too happy about that and the floor (loudly) 'that's my ruling and if you don't like it, you are free to leave.' nice touch. so they took 10 bucks out of the pot for the BB and SB and gave the rest to the only 2 that were in the pot in the first place. sweeeeeeeet! i got my 5 bucks back...
another interesting one, player A (lag) raises in EP to 25, player B (tag) re-raises to 60, player C pushes for 110. folded back to player A who says 'he can't re-raise me, i call'. (of course B could re-raise here!). player B asks dealer if he can re-raise and dealer tells him 'no'. i calmly say to player B, 'that is incorrect, you CAN re-raise but it's up to you if you want to make a big deal of it'. he doesn't bother and just calls and somehow miraculously, his aces hold up. (funny thing, a couple of regulars wanted to argue it with me and i simply said, 'he could have just raised to 95 and that would have been a legit raise, so how could a higher raise not be?' no response. gotta love that game.)
i know mistakes happen everywhere. but why do the same ones keep happening here? good luck 13.
the two guys in the hand weren't too happy about that and the floor (loudly) 'that's my ruling and if you don't like it, you are free to leave.' nice touch.
Sounds like beachbum swung by his old stomping grounds just for kicks. Either that or his customer service legacy lives on...
i've got 3 different anecdotes in those posts with 3 different dealers. but i agree with the last part. i will add that some of the dealers are quite professional and are really trying to do a good job. some...
I have seen this strange ruling a couple of times. When another player re-raises all-in, the previous raisers were only allowed to call and could not re-raise. When I was at a club, a former dealer at Casino Rama said Rama had this house rule to prevent collusion, but I don't understand this. I asked for the supervisor who didn't agree with the Rama house rule and let the original raiser re-raise.
I've seen other rulings where only the original raiser was not allowed to re-raise, but the next player (player B in this example) would be allowed to re-raise. Hopefully, 13CARDS or other casino employee can explain their house rules on this.
player A (lag) raises in EP to 25, player B (tag) re-raises to 60, player C pushes for 110. folded back to player A who says 'he can't re-raise me, i call'. (of course B could re-raise here!). player B asks dealer if he can re-raise and dealer tells him 'no'. i calmly say to player B, 'that is incorrect, you CAN re-raise but it's up to you if you want to make a big deal of it'. he doesn't bother and just calls and somehow miraculously, his aces hold up. (funny thing, a couple of regulars wanted to argue it with me and i simply said, 'he could have just raised to 95 and that would have been a legit raise, so how could a higher raise not be?'
i've got 3 different anecdotes in those posts with 3 different dealers. but i agree with the last part. i will add that some of the dealers are quite professional and are really trying to do a good job. some...
I was referring to the only one, as memory serves, that you named.
In No LImit games, a short raise All-In should NOT be considered a raise at all.
EXAMPLE #1:
Player A bets $100
Player B calls $100
Player C goes all-in for $185.
Player C has made a short raise All-In. Player A is NOT facing a raise and therefore cannot re-open the betting (raise). If Player A was allowed to raise, he would be...
1. raising a player that has no chips left (Player C).
2. raising a player that has called his initial bet (Player when there has been no valid raise after him.
Player A may call the additional $85 or fold. Either option means that Player B is NOT facing a raise and therefore cannot re-open the betting (raise). If Player B was allowed to raise, he would be...
1. raising a player that has no chips left (Player C).
2. raising a player that has called his initial bet (Player A) when there has been no valid raise after him.
Interesting. A similar situation happened at Rama last weekend, where I believe the dealer made the wrong ruling.
Player A raises to $30, Player B raises all-in to $45 total ($15 more), & Player C calls $45. Player A tries to reraise, at 1st the dealer tells him he can't, then the dealer says he can. Dealer declares that Player B's all-in raise ($15 more) is more than 50% of Player A's initial raise ($25 raise on top of the blind).
EXAMPLE #2 (from above)
Player A bets $25
Player B raises to $60
- (an increase of $35, meaning the next raise must be by at least $35 as well, for a total of at least $95)
Player C RAISES All-In for $110
- (this is a full raise and therefore re-opens the betting to all players that have already acted)
Player A (facing a raise) calls the additional $85.
Player B (facing a raise) HAS THE OPTION TO RAISE, CALL OR FOLD.
-FOLD=no cost
-CALL= an additonal $50
-RAISE= the raise must go to at least $160.
If Player B calls the additional $50, Player A may NOT raise. Action is complete.
If Player B raises, the betting is re-opened to Player A who may now FOLD, CALL or RE-RAISE.
thanks for the response. so 3/4 of the table, along with the dealer was mistaken on this. can you please make sure your dealers are aware of this situation?
p.s. i like that you clarified the next raise has to be at least 50 more than the all-in player's bet. nice touch! even fewer players realize this...
Comments
Sorry for assuming basic competence on the trained professional dealer / floor managers.
Where exactly does one sign up for the "fellate 13cards club"?
Mark
My ruling: Player one = loser. Here is the proof. "...first player says 'hold on, no one has shown their cards yet'..." This statement combined with his actions afterwards means he wanted a showdown where the caller shows first where is K high might still be good but doesn't want to show it if it isn't. Some players are so pathetic that they think they're so good that if they can keep their cards unexposed and get others to show, then they'll have the best of it. Of course, angleshooting to try to win half a pot where your hand was second best will also give you the best of it.
Pathetic really.
Didn't you state earlier in the thread that you had never even played in the establishment before? So are you like one of those guys who writes a critique on a movie he never even saw?
These discussions keep going in the same direction. My point is that taking blaming other people for being human is a lot easier than being responsible for your own self. Usually the people who are the most critical of others never even look at what they bring to the table. They can make a situation better by affecting what they actually CAN control, themselves.
Category:The Sword of Truth - Encyclopedia Fantastica - the fantasy encyclopedia
Mark
Adults can learn from fantasy novel.... the fact that you discard knowledge based on the origin of it says much about your willingness to learn...
Guess the whole 13cards alliance makes sense now.
Mark
I don't know him from Adam but assume he at least lives in the real world.
I just like to be a voice of reason for people who get bullied by the KW crew.
I will be arriving between noon and 2 pm on Friday, and will be playing on Saturday/sunday whenever I get there. Going to Taco and tequilla for Saturday dinner. I will be around all weekend.
We're right.
Mark
No. "Nice call" isn't the verbal equivalent of "I fold". Loser might be angling, but that doesn't mean he relinquishes the pot.
Wtf is the dealer clearing the board/awarding a pot, when neither hand has been mucked or tabled? Is he psychic or incompetent?
Although this is pretty funny, it's unfortunately probably not that far off. People aren't apt to table hands quickly and give up their death grip on their hole cards (or the board if we get that manhole cover) if the dealers are repeatedly incorrectly mucking hands/awarding pots incorrectly.
Add the fact that you're on a session and the dealers and players are slow and the management is always right -> 10 pissed off players -> 10 jackasses more likely to angle/slowroll/ be jackasses to other players/dealers/management -> dealers/management that don't give a shit because the players are all a bunch of douches. Sounds like a quality environment to play in eh?
If you want to improve the room, quit fucking up, and stop being condescending to the players. On the players' side, the few twits that are acting like morons need to learn a few generic things about decent poker etiquette.
I agree player 1 was angle shooting (he thought he lost when he was called) & is a pathetic loser. He wants the caller to show 1st so he can still muck his K high w/o showing the table (even though he was the aggressor), yet still be able to hold onto his K high in case it's good. Unfortunately, players like him are common at FV, they refuse to muck in case their marginal hand is good yet refuse to show 1st like they're supposed to as they're the aggressor, unless the dealer "yells" at them to show. They think they're so clever.
But as is common in poker when I'm there All Depends.
Maybe you should re-read my post. I did not say I "drop my pants". Depending on the situation and the mistake I may adjust the price. Maybe the product. Or maybe just improve the service. Just like poker, it depends.
If we make a mistake we make up for it one way or another. I repeat, when we have made the mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esool
....
Having said that, when I or one of my staff makes a mistake, the first thing I do is accept responsibility, the second is to compensate the customer.
Either with price,
service
or product.
Otherwise they lose that warm feeling which has a negative impact on the short and long term effects of my company.
But that just me.
EXCELLENT post. This is so true. Just clean that entire act up, PLEASE. FV is one of the worst poker rooms anywhere.
once the players pointed this out, i think he was trying to resolve it himself (i.e. picking the muck off the top of the deck). when the players objected, one suggested the two remaining players just chop the pot. nice idea when we are on a session fee. (one of the players even offered to muck and settle it up privately but for some reason that was a no go, too.) so the floor had to come over. he decided the hand should be cancelled and everyone be given their money back (right/wrong i don't know?) the two guys in the hand weren't too happy about that and the floor (loudly) 'that's my ruling and if you don't like it, you are free to leave.' nice touch. so they took 10 bucks out of the pot for the BB and SB and gave the rest to the only 2 that were in the pot in the first place. sweeeeeeeet! i got my 5 bucks back...
another interesting one, player A (lag) raises in EP to 25, player B (tag) re-raises to 60, player C pushes for 110. folded back to player A who says 'he can't re-raise me, i call'. (of course B could re-raise here!). player B asks dealer if he can re-raise and dealer tells him 'no'. i calmly say to player B, 'that is incorrect, you CAN re-raise but it's up to you if you want to make a big deal of it'. he doesn't bother and just calls and somehow miraculously, his aces hold up. (funny thing, a couple of regulars wanted to argue it with me and i simply said, 'he could have just raised to 95 and that would have been a legit raise, so how could a higher raise not be?' no response. gotta love that game.)
i know mistakes happen everywhere. but why do the same ones keep happening here? good luck 13.
Sounds like beachbum swung by his old stomping grounds just for kicks. Either that or his customer service legacy lives on...
i've got 3 different anecdotes in those posts with 3 different dealers. but i agree with the last part. i will add that some of the dealers are quite professional and are really trying to do a good job. some...
I've seen other rulings where only the original raiser was not allowed to re-raise, but the next player (player B in this example) would be allowed to re-raise. Hopefully, 13CARDS or other casino employee can explain their house rules on this.
I was referring to the only one, as memory serves, that you named.
Interesting. A similar situation happened at Rama last weekend, where I believe the dealer made the wrong ruling.
Player A raises to $30, Player B raises all-in to $45 total ($15 more), & Player C calls $45. Player A tries to reraise, at 1st the dealer tells him he can't, then the dealer says he can. Dealer declares that Player B's all-in raise ($15 more) is more than 50% of Player A's initial raise ($25 raise on top of the blind).
p.s. i like that you clarified the next raise has to be at least 50 more than the all-in player's bet. nice touch! even fewer players realize this...
oh, snap