Damn Bfillmaff! You had to call me out specifically lol. Probably because you knew I'd bite 😉

> Re Tariffs: I don't like them either ... but where the hell was this national anger / unity when our OWN government has been taking more out of our pockets than anyone???? Like seriously, these tariffs are a drop in the bucket compared to how much we have been getting fucked, and it wasn't until the orange man made a headline that anyone paid attention.

Looks like we agree on tariffs being a bad idea. I know the title of the thread is "I love politics" but I assumed from the original post that this was specifically about Trump and the US. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that our own government is perfect or hasn't made any mistakes. If you (or someone else) wants to start a thread about our government, I'm sure myself and others will chime in with many issues that we have.

> Re Trump: You guys have some bias there, which is fine, both sides do it... but allow me to make the case for "taking what the TV tells you with a grain of salt". Trigs, I read through your list of "horrible" executive orders and not only are they not all horrible... most of them are flat out awesome. I would encourage you to at least try to steelman each of them before passing judgement... as there's plenty of nuance in there.

I did state that that list was "in my humble opinion" as I knew not everyone would see all of those as horrible executive orders. You do concede (or at least it seems that you state) that at least some of those orders are horrible, so that still seems pretty bad to me that he's making all these decisions and at least some of them are "horrible" even in your opinion. (Please don't tell me which ones you think are awesome, it'll probably make me cry honestly.)

Also, I never said that every single executive order he's made is horrible. Some I actually do like (for example the push for AI research and development comes to mind, but there are others).

In response to us having bias against Trump, I would disagree. Bias, by definition, means "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair." Considering that Trump has said all of the following (and this is not even close to an exhaustive list), I am judging him on who he is and not a prejudice of him or Republicans or whatever. (The following list is just what came up in a 30 second search about him. Obviously, I'm sure we can find more horrible things he's said and done easily.)

  1. Trump mocked a disabled New York Times reporter in front of a crowd, saying, “Now the poor guy, you ought to see this guy,” before jerking his arms around and holding his right hand at an angle. He imitated the reporter, saying, “‘Ah, I don’t know what I said! I don’t remember!’”

  2. Trump has made plenty of xenophobic and hateful comments about Muslims, Mexicans, Native Americans, African-Americans and Jews, and he pals around with white supremacists and has a white nationalist as a campaign chief.

  3. Trump has made many offensive comments about women over the years. Some examples: In 1992, Trump told New York Magazine, “You have to treat ’em like shit,” and that’s how he’s treated women in his life

  4. On one of the darkest days in American history, when we lost thousands of men, women and children to what is still considered the largest terrorist attack in the world, Trump decided to pick up the phone and call into a television station to point out that, now, his building was the tallest in Manhattan.

  5. The famous "Just grab them by the pussy" comment. Here's the whole transcript which is not great either.

(the following are all from a 2020 New York Times article which literally is just referencing the last month)

  1. When asked "Do you commit to a peaceful transfer of power?" instead of a simple "yes", Trump said, "Well, we're gonna have to see what happens. You know that I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots. And the ballots are a disaster." When pushed further, he said, "We'll want to have - get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very - we'll have a very peaceful...There won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation."

  2. He said "it's an amazing thing" that the coronavirus "affects virtually nobody."

  3. He said that US deaths from covid-19 would be "very low" if you just didn't count those who died in the "blue states".

  4. He said that climate change was non-existent and also that it would just "start getting cooler, just you watch." When told that the science does not agree with him, he said "I don't think science knows, actually."

  5. He retweeted a gif calling Joe Biden a pedophile, and then said that Biden is on drugs.

I am not a good enough person to use the steelman argument for the literal things he's said I guess, and again, this isn't even close to all the horrible things he's said and done. This was just literally the first couple websites that came up when I quickly searched.

By the way, hope the baby is doing well! And hope you're getting enough sleep lol. Let me know when you plan on visiting Ontario again!

OK but now we are talking about his character, and infering intent from words out of context. We could get lost in debate over that, so I'll concede that he has said some stupid shit and is not an angel (with the catch being that I've heard plenty worse in locker rooms here in Canada.)

But back to your itemized list of executive orders, and my original point: there's a coordinated effort to paint these orders as "horrible", and they aren't. Its actually a fantastic start. Orders like this are what citizens voted for, and frankly, we need this level of push back here too. Not that I want right wing policies across the board by any means... rather, a correction towards the middle, as a direct result of the left going too far down the roads of overreach, corruption, and woke policies.

*And because I used a trigger word there (woke) ... I will try to be extra clear: No one is against being Diverse/Equitable/Inclusive, or against any groups of people based on their race or gender. We are angry about the way those goals were used as justification to implement insane policy, obsess over dividing people into race/gender, and to use them as a shield to dismiss all valid criticisms. And we were angry enough that we voted for the guy who promised to change it... pussy grabbing comments aside.

    • trigs

    • Post #28
    • Edited

    Bfillmaff OK but now we are talking about his character, and infering intent from words out of context. We could get lost in debate over that, so I'll concede that he has said some stupid shit and is not an angel (with the catch being that I've heard plenty worse in locker rooms here in Canada.)

    I don't believe I'm inferring intent from words out of context. Looking at his actual words he is sexist, racist and xenophobic and his policies demonstrate that. Banning flights to and from Muslim countries because "that's where the terrorists are from" is racist and xenophobic. Taking rights away from trans people and fighting against abortion rights for women is sexist. Both his words and actions support these facts about him. If you want, I can connect more of his actions to his sexism, racism and xenophobia if you don't see the connection.

    Bfillmaff But back to your itemized list of executive orders, and my original point: there's a coordinated effort to paint these orders as "horrible", and they aren't. Its actually a fantastic start. Orders like this are what citizens voted for, and frankly, we need this level of push back here too. Not that I want right wing policies across the board by any means... rather, a correction towards the middle, as a direct result of the left going too far down the roads of overreach, corruption, and woke policies.

    I'm do not disagree that those who voted for him wanted these changes. A lot of what he's doing is exactly what he said he was going to do. However, popular opinion (the ad populum fallacy) suggests that popularity alone does not make something "right" or "true".
    And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on Trump making "corrections to the middle" of the political spectrum. Republicans and Trump are very far right. Democrats are even slightly right of middle in my crazy leftist bias opinion. So, this is nowhere near a correction to the middle imho.

    Bfillmaff *And because I used a trigger word there (woke) ... I will try to be extra clear: No one is against being Diverse/Equitable/Inclusive, or against any groups of people based on their race or gender. We are angry about the way those goals were used as justification to implement insane policy, obsess over dividing people into race/gender, and to use them as a shield to dismiss all valid criticisms. And we were angry enough that we voted for the guy who promised to change it... pussy grabbing comments aside.

    I can't speak to what "insane policies" based on DEI were put in place honestly, but stating a helicopter crashed into a plane because of DEI and then attacking all of DEI on the federal level seems pretty absurd to me. I agree that using DEI policies to take advantage of others or using them as a shield to dismiss all valid criticism is not good, but again, I don't see that happening. If you have examples of these policies or where a person or a group used them to take advantage of others or avoid valid criticism, I'd be interested to read about it. I honestly have just not seen or read anything about that. I'm not saying that that has never happened ever (obviously, there is always someone who is going to take advantage of the system), but is it really this big of an issue that we need to get rid of all DEI completely?

    And yes, Trudeau is a pussy...

          but is it really this big of an issue that we need to get rid of all DEI completely?

          Yes.
          10000% yes.
          The practice of making important decisions based on a persons race, sex, or skin color, should be abolished.
          Completely.
          Thoroughly.
          And for good.
          And even if we are only trying to help.

          It is not being suggested anywhere that we eliminate diversity itself.
          Diversity is another one of those left wing powerhouse words perfect for hiding behind.

          It is the attempt to control diversity through identity politics.
          It is the idea that the system will treat me differently in any way shape or form possible, based on whatever group I may belong to (skin color, sex preference, race) instead of treating my 100% as an individual.
          It is the disagreement we have in society about what the unintended (or intended...?) consequences of those policies are.
          And it is the fact that even approaching this discussion will get you wrongly labelled words like "sexist, racist and xenophobic."

          That is the issue here.
          No one in their right mind is arguing against diversity itself or any specific group.
          Let's assume the original intent of these policies was a 100% genuine effort to help level the playing field: STILL, 1000000% yes.
          For the same reasons above.

          Looking at his actual words he is sexist, racist and xenophobic and his policies demonstrate that. Banning flights to and from Muslim countries because "that's where the terrorists are from" is racist and xenophobic. Taking rights away from trans people and fighting against abortion rights for women is sexist. Both his words and actions support these facts about him. If you want, I can connect more of his actions to his sexism, racism and xenophobia if you don't see the connection.

          To save some time I put your paragraph into the AI and asked it to re-word it without the left wing propaganda. (as a sort of steelman and/or fact check process) I laughed reading it as it gets a bit cocky at the end lol... but I'll sign off on this as pretty a fair take:

          "Examining his actual words, President Trump has been clear about prioritizing American security and traditional values. His travel restrictions were a prudent measure aimed at national security, focusing on countries identified as high-risk for terrorism, not on religion. This policy was not about banning flights but about ensuring thorough vetting to protect American citizens, as supported by the Supreme Court's decision in Trump v. Hawaii.

          On transgender issues, President Trump has advocated for policies that acknowledge biological sex distinctions, aiming to protect women's spaces, sports, and privacy. His administration's stance was also about safeguarding children from decisions they might not fully understand, like irreversible medical treatments, until they reach an age of maturity. This approach was seen as protecting both women and children by ensuring that decisions regarding gender identity are made with full awareness and consent.

          Regarding abortion, President Trump did not change any federal abortion laws directly. Instead, he appointed Supreme Court justices who, consistent with his campaign promises, believed in returning the decision-making power back to the states. This was evident with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, which left abortion legislation in the hands of state governments, allowing each state to reflect the will of its constituents on this matter.

          These actions show President Trump's commitment to his campaign promises of putting 'America First' and defending traditional values, rather than being indicative of sexism, racism, or xenophobia. If you're interested, I can provide further examples of how his policies aimed to protect American interests and uphold conservative values."

          "Introduce a little anarchy, upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos..." -The Joker

          @thisoRthat, shouldn't that be Order 666?

          "Execute Order 66" is a StarWars reference.

          • moose

          • Post #33
          • Edited

          He got rid of the penny. *Win

          Did you know nickels cost almost 14 cents to make? Time to eliminate those as well. Then coinage will be in order by size and make sense again.

            Did you know nickels cost almost 14 cents to make? Time to eliminate those as well...

            This is a baby step towards going cashless. Couldn't the treasury split the difference between cost of printing a $100 bill (which costs 19¢)?

            Some folks don't like the idea of a cashless society. Same peoples that don't like the W.E.F. (and U.N.) ?
            Bitcoin is a digital alternative and only one country (El Salvador?) has made it 'legal tender'?

            Although, I think I heard a news reel stating that some jurisdictions (Vancouver and California?)
            do accept it as a form of payment of property taxes...

            ... I don't like the ideal of money being strictly digital as then their is a potential for hacking.
            Or Uncle Sam deeming you an "errorist" threat and freezing your assets. Cash is king ?

            With the new technology of 'blockchain' possibly makes A.P. [ /wiki/Jim_Bell#"Assassination_Politics"_essay ] easily feasible.

            I'm for democracy as there are checks and balances. Theoretically even one 'useful idiot'(orange tyrant) can't speed-run the /r/collapse of the empire of USA?

            The penny thing reminded me of Timex's post the other day... had me laughing: The man has been gaming the system for 10 years and is probably up over $10 by now! Pro move for sure.

            moose Then coinage will be in order by size and make sense again.

            Man, "will be in order by size and make CENTS again" was right there....

            Mark

              Also, the Associated Press was barred from white house briefings because they refused to call the big wet stuff by Trump's name

              https://apnews.com/article/trump-ap-journalism-first-amendment-8a83d8b506053249598e807f8e91e1ae
              https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/12/ap-white-house

              Now, I know everyone loves the term "Orwellian" and quotes 1984 because it's the only book they can name title and author (which they also didn't read), but there is that line about "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command"...
              It's now the gulf of america?
              Musk didn't do a nazi salute?
              Trump didn't lie about fucking everything?

              Much much further down that road to fascism. This is the time where all those 2A nuts should be fucking loading up and heading out, but unfortunately, they all backed the power hungry oligarchy... .wonder if maybe that was the point all along with the reinterpretation of the 2A push in the 80s.....

              Time to start calling them all Nazis and meaning it. Let's try to be on the right side of history folks. And anyone that is going to "umm actually", I'm really glad you figured out a neat little loophole to excuse behaviour, but it's kinda weird that I've never had to explain / excuse why folks I think would be a good leader didn't actually do nazi stuff.

              Mark

                DrTyore (which they also didn't read)

                Objection: I have read 1984. Probably didn't understand it at the time

                    moose311 Objection: I have read 1984. Probably didn't understand it at the time

                    Okay..

                    Fair enough... I've read it like half a dozen times, and there's still new stuff reflected IRL.

                    Mark

                      Musk didn't do a nazi salute?
                      Trump didn't lie about fucking everything?

                      Mark,
                      It is slightly insane that you reference 1984 while giving examples of how you have been brainwashed by the media, 1984 style.

                      No, Musk did not do a nazi salute, but people take it at face value because it fits their case. There are compilations going around of politicians from both left and right doing the "my heart goes out to you" gesture for years... but there's a target on Musk and that's the playbook.

                      "Fine people on both sides".
                      "Drinking Bleach."
                      "Bloodbath"
                      "Nazi Salute"
                      ... etc etc.
                      How many of those do you believe?
                      All manufactured.
                      They can clip stuff to make it sound however they want to suit the agenda, and repeat it enough times it becomes fact.

                      When I say brainwashed it's not a personal attack by the way, I know you guys are all good dudes who genuinely want what's best - no question as to intent on any of this stuff.

                      Here are a couple of short clips... on theme with Poker + Politics: if former mega-lib Daniel Negreanu has started to figure it out, you guys can too 🙂

                      Fine People Hoax:
                      https://www.tiktok.com/@doctor.bad.views/video/7460117538857389354

                      Leaving The Left:
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G_n5NeCwqI

                        Bfillmaff No, Musk did not do a nazi salute, but people take it at face value because it fits their case.

                        Sorry buddy...

                        I loves ya, but I have to stop you here. He did. He did it, he intended to do it. Full stop.
                        As for the other photos, I've seen those too, but you're not a stupid man, you can see the difference where the other politicians are very clearly being clipped in the pose, but the lead up was different. Musk intentionally did it, and then went on x "the everything app" to further make puns about being a nazi. Musk has also done the "heart goes out" gesture before, but, you know, not nazi-ish, but the heart shaped hands on his chest and spread arms out kinda thing versus the seig hail he did do. If this guy is a genius he sure does do some stupid shit. Some people claim autistic, fine, then he's an autistic nazi, and I have no problem with his autism.

                        Bfillmaff It is slightly insane that you reference 1984 while giving examples of how you have been brainwashed by the media, 1984 style.

                        Explain to me where I was brainwashed. Everyone is influenced, yourself included, but I'm definitely more comfortable being influenced by folks demanding being treated with dignity and respect versus the people blatantly lying to demonize them.... kinda like Nazis do.

                        Bfillmaff "Fine people on both sides".

                        I saw him say this, in real time, in an invterview, and with full context. He was excusing people chanting nazi sentiment similar to the 14 words

                        Bfillmaff "Drinking Bleach."

                        I watched the press briefing where he said this too.

                        Bfillmaff "Bloodbath"

                        Not sure which one this refers to

                        Bfillmaff "Nazi Salute"

                        I saw Elon do this on tv, in front of the presidential seal. Then I saw him turn around and do it again.

                        When I say I saw these, I watched the raw footage, the full, unedited (often live) video. Now after that I've certainly listened to talking heads that have given opinons, and that will have influenced my own. But that works both ways, and I'll admit to it, but I will also reject the nazi apologizing and justification... because that's what Nazis do.

                        Bfillmaff When I say brainwashed it's not a personal attack by the way, I know you guys are all good dudes who genuinely want what's best - no question as to intent on any of this stuff.

                        I appreciate that, and you and I always got on well, and I'm not being mean or dickish either, but I'm not going to compromise with or excuse people who are doing evil, which T&E are doing.

                        Bfillmaff Here are a couple of short clips... on theme with Poker + Politics: if former mega-lib Daniel Negreanu has started to figure it out, you guys can too 🙂

                        I'll watch these when I get a chance, but the "why I left the left" narrative is also often referred to as radicalization (yes, that also goes both ways). Ana Kasparian is another similar case, Cenk Uygur to a lesser degree. Folks change ideologies, and it is a big mistake to assign that to "figuring it out".

                        There's a saying I heard, and some folks say it's from Germany, some folks say it's made up.. .but, like, all sayings are made up?
                        "If there is a Nazi sitting at a table with 9 other people, you have a table with 10 Nazis"

                        Mark

                                        No problem man. I get it: Easier to dismiss someone as a "Nazi" than have to contend with their ideas 🙂

                                        Discuss over a beer some time. 👊

                                          Bfillmaff Easier to dismiss someone as a "Nazi" than have to contend with their ideas

                                          It is! Fun too.

                                          But what ideas of Trump or Elon's are you suggesting are going to make everything great again? Banning trans athletes? Denying (that particular type of) gender-affirming care? Renaming the water? Dropping funding for education? Allowing Musk to influence government policies and procedures despite not being an official arm of the goverment, and not being voted in? Firing people who were hired as "DEI" (which, fun fact, turned out to affect mostly women!), Withdrawing from the WHO and Paris accords? Ending brithright citizenship? Sending law enforcement to arrest people without warrants or reasonable articulable suspiscion (they arrested a veteran because he didn't have his papers on him - eating while brown), restoring and expanding the EXPECTATIONS of the death penalty (remember that thread? That was a good one, and hey, everyone that was pro-capital punishment? Blood's on your hands there),

                                          Sadly, I can go on... but this is just in the last what, 6 weeks? And I didn't even touch on his greatest hits of illegal immigrants and shit. He's a bad person, and I'm tired of pretending there's a silver lining for anyone that isn't a gajillionaire.

                                          Mark

                                              DrTyore

                                              But what ideas of Trump or Elon's are you suggesting are going to make everything great again?

                                              Your list is actually pretty good, I just had to re-word them a bit for accuracy:

                                              Banning trans athletes?
                                              Ensuring fairness in athletics by maintaining biological distinctions, thus safeguarding the integrity and competitive equity of women's sports.

                                              Denying (that particular type of) gender-affirming care?
                                              Protecting children from irreversible decisions that they might regret later in life, advocating for a more cautious and informed approach to youth healthcare.

                                              Renaming the water?
                                              I don't know... trolling the libs? lol

                                              Dropping funding for education?
                                              Streamlining government spending by eliminating inefficiencies in educational bureaucracies, thereby redirecting funds towards more direct, effective educational initiatives.

                                              Allowing Musk to influence government policies and procedures despite not being an official arm of the goverment, and not being voted in?
                                              Bringing in Musk to find waste/corruption in goverment exactly as he said he would before people voted for him. Side note: Look at the shit being uncovered already, it's bananas. Uncovering corruption/waste should be 100% bipartisan.

                                              Firing people who were hired as "DEI" (which, fun fact, turned out to affect mostly women!) Moving towards a merit-based system that eliminates discrimination by not giving preferential treatment based on race or gender, aiming for true equality in employment.
                                              Promoting equality by removing race and sex from the hiring process

                                              Withdrawing from the WHO and Paris accords?
                                              WHO - a globalist scam hiding behind the world of medicine
                                              Paris Accord - a globalist scam hiding behind the idea of climate change

                                              Ending brithright citizenship?
                                              Preventing "birth tourism" and ensuring citizenship is given to those who have a genuine connection to the nation, not just those born on U.S. soil.

                                              Sending law enforcement to arrest people without warrants or reasonable articulable suspiscion (they arrested a veteran because he didn't have his papers on him - eating while brown)

                                              Will agree that IF that were the case, that's fucked up and wrong... however, here we have another case of media spin towards the narrative. A couple of searches later reveals not so much "eating while brown" and more of "convicted of a felony while on a green card". "Marlon Parris is facing deportation due to a prior non-violent felony drug conviction. Parris, although a legal resident with a green card, faces potential removal proceedings due to his criminal conviction." But to be clear: totally with you on this one, in that anyone going around asking for papers without warrants/suspisicion can go fuck themselves, as it's none of their business for anyone to prove themselves innocent. (And yes that's a pandemic vax pass reference too... ha ha)

                                              restoring and expanding the EXPECTATIONS of the death penalty
                                              Ensuring justice for the most heinous crimes, reinforcing the law-and-order stance. In other words: FRY EM.

                                                  Bfillmaff Banning trans athletes?
                                                  Ensuring fairness in athletics by maintaining biological distinctions, thus safeguarding the integrity and competitive equity of women's sports.

                                                  Neither of us are experts in this, I can show as many studies showing that the HRT negates any advantage, and you'll respond with similar arguments that it does, and then we'll just get into arguments about whose is more reliable.

                                                  Bfillmaff Denying (that particular type of) gender-affirming care?
                                                  Protecting children from irreversible decisions that they might regret later in life, advocating for a more cautious and informed approach to youth healthcare.

                                                  Hormone blockers are reversible, further gender affirming treatments are usually made by adults. I'm sure again we could come up with same studies again, resulting again in reliability arguments.

                                                  Bfillmaff Bringing in Musk to find waste/corruption in goverment exactly as he said he would before people voted for him. Side note: Look at the shit being uncovered already, it's bananas. Uncovering corruption/waste should be 100% bipartisan.

                                                  I haven't seen the stats on everything yet, but I'll keep an eye on it... I have a feeling it isn't just the efficiencies they're targeting. Please share some of these already uncovered wasteful spending (and, FWIW, I agree that Trump is doing a lot of exaclty what he said he would, but that's the problem).

                                                  Bfillmaff Firing people who were hired as "DEI" (which, fun fact, turned out to affect mostly women!) Moving towards a merit-based system that eliminates discrimination by not giving preferential treatment based on race or gender, aiming for true equality in employment.
                                                  Promoting equality by removing race and sex from the hiring process

                                                  That's all fine and good once race and sex are no longer part of the discrimination people face. This is an attempt to offset some of the harm that has done. As two white males, I'm sure we're the best people to speak on this. However, one fun thought experiment: Two identical candidates, one straight white male, one a POC / person of a visible minority of your choice. Some might say that it's a coin flip then, but the fact is the latter candidate has statistcally overcome more challenges, faced more bigotry and other hurdles, so is actually probably a better candidate.

                                                  Bfillmaff Withdrawing from the WHO and Paris accords?
                                                  WHO - a globalist scam hiding behind the world of medicine
                                                  Paris Accord - a globalist scam hiding behind the idea of climate change

                                                  Who said something about media biasing their opinions? Also, not sure if I'm detecting a vibe of climate change denial?

                                                  Bfillmaff Ending brithright citizenship?
                                                  Preventing "birth tourism" and ensuring citizenship is given to those who have a genuine connection to the nation, not just those born on U.S. soil.

                                                  Sure, that happens, but like.... Elon is whining about the lack of birth rates, so maybe having more babies is a good thing, and having them being defaulted to full citizens seems efficient and beneficial? Unless they're somehow "undesireable"? I agree systems getting taken advantage of is bad, but "fixing" it at the cost of what the system is meant for is harmful to people, which needs to be avoided.

                                                  Bfillmaff Will agree that IF that were the case, that's fucked up and wrong... however, here we have another case of media spin towards the narrative. A couple of searches later reveals not so much "eating while brown" and more of "convicted of a felony while on a green card". "Marlon Parris is facing deportation due to a prior non-violent felony drug conviction. Parris, although a legal resident with a green card, faces potential removal proceedings due to his criminal conviction." But to be clear: totally with you on this one, in that anyone going around asking for papers without warrants/suspisicion can go fuck themselves, as it's none of their business for anyone to prove themselves innocent. (And yes that's a pandemic vax pass reference too... ha ha)

                                                  Different guy, puerto rican veteran was arrested at a seafood shop because he wasn't carrying his passport.... and this was directly due to Trump and his EO's
                                                  https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/ice-agents-raid-seafood-store-detain-u-s-military-veteran/
                                                  https://fox59.com/news/national-world/ice-agents-raid-nj-seafood-store-detain-us-military-veteran/

                                                  Bfillmaff restoring and expanding the EXPECTATIONS of the death penalty
                                                  Ensuring justice for the most heinous crimes, reinforcing the law-and-order stance. In other words: FRY EM.

                                                  Pretty sure this is said in jest, but I really hope so. It doesn't work, and the only justification is if you want revenge, not justice.

                                                  Mark