The state of poker/parenting as I see it
Ok.. This place has been boring as hell since I stopped posting, so I thought I'd stop by and actually give some food for thought.
Basically, I don't play poker anymore. It started out as an interesting challenge to understand strategy and how to become a winning player. I've read enough books, read enough posts and played enough hands to come to the following realizations about the game:
1) Limit poker is a grind. Well we knew that from the start. Almost all of the decisions that effect your winrate are made pre-flop and on the flop. The turn and river usually invoke either value betting or pot-odds calling. All these hand histories that get posted that ask Call or Fold are probably equivalent in EV over the long term. Barely worth the discussion in the first place. Once you get around 7 or 8 to one, you likely aren't very wrong in going to the river with anything.
2) The general population in the online poker world has gotten substantially smarter in the last 2 years. While the fishies haven't become rare, they are not as easy to track down. Most tables consist of 4-5 TA's and the rest of various tightness levels. It seems like most players have understood that pure crap is unplayable, but they don't know why.
3) Most players don't understand the 'Why' of poker. Why do you bet? Why do you raise? Why am I playing? Do you? I've sat at enough tables in my life where people get into the stupidest poker theory debates ever.
4) You see uncomfortable levels of agression online. This pretty much compels you to call down with anything.
5) No Limit is all about reads. Posting hands is practically useless. If you think the guy will fold to your bet, how can anyone ever question it? In a game with 20% of hands going to showdown, reads are all you have to work eith. I saw a thread today about a NL hand where OP made two pair on the flop, boated on the river and lost to a bigger full house. The suggestion was to raise the flop and win the pot right there. That's a great way to make sure you win the minimum with your good hands. OP flopped a hidden hand. Why wouldn't he peel a few a pop the river? Why win next to nothing with a great hand?
6) Poker is boring. Oops, I said it. It's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING. Sure once in every 100 hands you make a read to steal a pot, but is it an effective use of your time? Playing large stack tournies that last 10 hours? I think quite a few ppl around here should really do a cost/benefit analysis of the expense of making a few hundred bucks while you spend the best years of your life sitting infront of a computer to do it. Either move up or move out.
7) Live poker is the shizznit.
HEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Basically, I don't play poker anymore. It started out as an interesting challenge to understand strategy and how to become a winning player. I've read enough books, read enough posts and played enough hands to come to the following realizations about the game:
1) Limit poker is a grind. Well we knew that from the start. Almost all of the decisions that effect your winrate are made pre-flop and on the flop. The turn and river usually invoke either value betting or pot-odds calling. All these hand histories that get posted that ask Call or Fold are probably equivalent in EV over the long term. Barely worth the discussion in the first place. Once you get around 7 or 8 to one, you likely aren't very wrong in going to the river with anything.
2) The general population in the online poker world has gotten substantially smarter in the last 2 years. While the fishies haven't become rare, they are not as easy to track down. Most tables consist of 4-5 TA's and the rest of various tightness levels. It seems like most players have understood that pure crap is unplayable, but they don't know why.
3) Most players don't understand the 'Why' of poker. Why do you bet? Why do you raise? Why am I playing? Do you? I've sat at enough tables in my life where people get into the stupidest poker theory debates ever.
4) You see uncomfortable levels of agression online. This pretty much compels you to call down with anything.
5) No Limit is all about reads. Posting hands is practically useless. If you think the guy will fold to your bet, how can anyone ever question it? In a game with 20% of hands going to showdown, reads are all you have to work eith. I saw a thread today about a NL hand where OP made two pair on the flop, boated on the river and lost to a bigger full house. The suggestion was to raise the flop and win the pot right there. That's a great way to make sure you win the minimum with your good hands. OP flopped a hidden hand. Why wouldn't he peel a few a pop the river? Why win next to nothing with a great hand?
6) Poker is boring. Oops, I said it. It's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING. Sure once in every 100 hands you make a read to steal a pot, but is it an effective use of your time? Playing large stack tournies that last 10 hours? I think quite a few ppl around here should really do a cost/benefit analysis of the expense of making a few hundred bucks while you spend the best years of your life sitting infront of a computer to do it. Either move up or move out.
7) Live poker is the shizznit.
HEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Comments
Agreed. Although, I'd hazard that there's some other prominent posters that have definitely scaled back as well. (ScottyZ, AllAces (unless it's wrt PNL), Hork42, Dave to name a few off the top of my head)
I agree with the first part, but disagree with the 2nd. I'd say most people THINK they know it's a grind, but just don't realize how much of a grind and how long the "long-term" is. I'd even wager I'm in that boat as well (Realizing that 150k-200k hands of limit in PT isn't THAT many hands although it's enough to realize you can beat the game).
2) I agree online is a grind. However, as you allude to in 3) the people that don't understand the "why" have weaknesses in their play (typically post-flop). It's just that exploiting the weaknesses is trickier to figure out compared to exploiting the weaknesses of the average LP that plays half his hands preflop and doesn't distinguish whether the pot was raised in front of him or not.
4) I agree. And aggressive games I find can be tilt inducing (at least with me). People that assume Party to be the soft site are dead wrong IMO. While in general, I find many of party's games to be looser, they will be dramatically more agressive in the LL (2-4 thru 5-10 range). Generally a mix of TAGs and LAGs.
6)Sure it is, sometimes. I'm still hooked though. And the monetary benefits don't hurt.
Huh? So did you give the game up altogether or just online?
Why do you enjoy live better?
I probably enjoy live better for 3 reasons:
1) Variety. I simply don't get to play live that often. Some of us have jobs and don't live next to a casino.
2) The mindless chatter/social interaction and the chance to actually look for "tells" (again probably variety).
3) Live poker is a dramatically different game since in general it will be predominately loose/passive (basically the opposite of an online game). So again, variety.
3.5) Related to 3) the weakness of the game makes it much easier to beat at a healthy WR. Everyone likes $.
It has stretches of boring, and periods of excitement in between. If you can't find any enjoyment though, quitting makes sense.
Interesting "one size fits all" argument. If you play solely for profit, you may be right, however some play for enjoyment (with profit as a side-effect). And even if you do play for profit, it would be silly to play at higher stakes before you are ready, either due to bankroll or skill limitations. Making a smaller rate while learning is OK, the benefit is in the future. I think "move up or move out" is a fairly narrow view and incorrect for many players.
Totally agree - there are so many differences that they really are different games. But while I prefer live, I don't dislike online. Given the choice between online and nothing, I'll take online, since that's still fun for me.
I've noticed that several posters have been lost here as well, including you BBC. Yea, you can be somewhat abrasive, but when you did reply to a post or a hand history in particular, I enjoyed hearing your views on it...gave me another point to consider (well, those you didn't yawn at anyway). Didn't necessarily agree 100%, but I did enjoy reading what you had to say nonetheless. Sometimes though, the reponses were too over the top, after which I just stopped reading certain posts.
But why have so many others lost interest? Does Hork still play? Does Scotty still pay a visit once in awhile? Has the forum grown so much that they now consider it mandane and useless? If so, I would enjoy seeing you guys post again, because I for one considered it valuable information, and for a fairly new player such as myself, those points of view were quite valuable and respected.
I'm quite sure my opinion is in the minority in some cases though. But just wanted to say that I've noticed the lack of 'fun' this forum had when I first joined, and I can't compare to the experiences of those that have decided to remain quiet, so I can't keep it interesting with my limited knowledge and skills. I would like to see some of the old regulars back, express their views, argue over strategy and opinions, while keeping the bullshit to a minimum. Tall order I guess.
The end of another low limit career.
I agree that the forum has not been exciting. Although, I don't think it is because you left but rather why you stopped posting. The forum has become more of an ego stroking for a lot of people. There are a lot of posts about "how great I am" thinly disguised as hand histories and comments for open discussion. Also, there is a lot of dead air comments that seem to be more about increasing $$ than putting forth any real helpful commentary. Besides the "Is Haddon in Vegas?" comments, there hasn't been a single debate or thead that real disagreements take place. I find this odd since there used to be debates and near flame wars more commonly. Not that I am a big supporter of flame wars but at the very least it generated some insight.
I disagree. Limit poker is a grind but I don't think that we all know that. It is shown in a lot of posts that a lot of people thnk it is a grind, just not for them. There have been very few posts that aknowledge losing sessions. It seems most people are only beat by bad beats but they still come up from Brantford and Rama at 50 - 100 BB per session. So until some people are ready to admit that they do lose, nothing can be accomplished.
They have become smarter and there are some better players but the casinos are still rampant with horrible players. Personally, I am still working on the "whys" of betting. I still have trouble with my river betting. Do I bet or do I just check, since if I bet he'll fold but if he calls I am beat. I am still bad there.
I agree with the hand histories. As mentioned above it is all about ego stroking. I don't post my hand histories anymore because I have fundamentally disagreed with too many and it is based on reads. Without knowing someone's read you can only go by mathmatical probability and although a key to poker, it isn't everything.
It can be very boring. It is what you make of it.
As for the time entered, it is up to the person. I don't play a whole hell of a lot each week. I have a family and other interests. I also don't incorporate poker into my family life by teaching my children how to play. I think it is ludicrous to teach children to gamble. Give them a smoke and a shot of whiskey to go with the cards.
I love live poker and much prefer it to online. I am a far more winning player live than online but I play more online, due to the aforemention family.
I appreciate your attempt to get some sort of discussion going. However, I feel it will probably be read and dismissed. If you made fun of someone, then perhaps something more would happen.
Come on Andrew, this comment is so far off the mark, the debate that poker is a game of skill versus gambling aside IT"S A GAME what is wrong with having some fun family time teaching your kids...not to mention that there are some valuable math skills to be learned along the way....and to think all poker players smoke and drink whiskey is closed minded thinking, I didn't expect that from you. I don't make my kids play but if they want to play and ask me to teach them or play with them then I am most definitely going to fulfill their wishes, even if it's only because they want to spend time with me and they know it's my interest so therefore they want to be involved, that is what I call bonding. My family and I spent last week at a cottage and we played cards in the evenings as a family, crazy eights, fish, hearts, whatever, why can't poker fit in that group as a family game as well? The thought that underage kids are sitting around playing high stakes poker with stogies hanging out of their mouth pounding back shots of Crown Royal are rediculous, besides my kids like beer!
Poker is a game of skill but it is based on gambling. I haven't seen any home games based held "just for fun". There is money to be won and lost. There is a reason that kids can't get into casinos. This is an adult game. Perhaps my definition of "kids" is in question. I don't think it is appropriate to teach a 7 year old how to gamble. Would I teach my sons how to play when they are 11 - 14? I am not sure. I still have the issue of how a young person can handle it.
I learned how to play stud when I was very young. But I also learned a lot of other crap from a shitty ass father that I shouldn't have as well. I want to improve upon my father.
The other reason why I don't is what my gut tells me. When my son comes up to me and I happen to be online playing and he wants to learn, there is something inside me tell me that it is wrong. I can't describe it but my moral compass is pointing to "DON'T DO IT!". So I don't. We play crazy eights, go fish and other games not based on taking someone else's money.
I hear this same argument over gun control and youth. I'm all for teaching a kid the PROPER way to handle a firearm. All they have now is the crap they see on TV or in the movies, and they think it's cool. Same can be said about poker, all they see is the crap on TV or in the movies, but they have NO IDEA how to play it properly. So why not teach them young?
I think the problem with the forum is that it has become 'Snobbish'....people post interesting things and they either get no response, get a response that says "YAWN" or get blasted and called a donk.
This has the opposite effect of encouraging people to post it makes them not want to post in general.
I yesterday tried to encourage some discussion about could you fold "Kings pre-flop", half the responses were "Search the forum because this has been discussed before" and it quickly went down hill from there. I deleted the posted and now have serious thoughts about posting anything again because I don't want to waste my time.
Under the same theory do we teach our kids our to make a woman climax and what to drink to avoid hang overs? Kids are going to have sex and drink. We don't need to encourage it. Yes, we need to ensure that if they do these things they do it safely (ie condoms and such) but there is a line.
As for gun control, one the many things my father taught me was gun safety (and oddly how to make bullets) and yes it did teach me to repect guns and handle them properly. But as an 8 year old kid, I don't think I should have been making bullets.
I am acutally very Liberal minded and open to a lot of things but the idea of children gamblng doesn't sit well with me.
I quite agree. This is the whole "hollier than thou" approach that has been taken. I do think that is the instance that your referring to, "do a search" comment was actually meant as being helpful. The poster has never shown to be mean. I think that particular post was misunderstood. (On an aside, I would have a hard time folding KK pre-flop. And yes I insta-call with AA in the fourth hand of the WSOP).
Chris - don't get too disillusioned - just wade through the muck
You're the man Flint Bones! That's exactly what I was just about to post. I posted the "search the forum" comment because I figured it was one way to give Chris what he was looking for with his post (albeit a lazy way). I later posted again in that thread providing some more useful info. I did not mean to discourage further posting on the topic. I guess I should have added some smilies
/g2
Wader
I know what you were getting at g2 and I know no offence was meant.
The problem is the snobbish behaviour (which didn't always exist) will put off new people and will cause them not to post. When no one post then the forum dies.
I think this is where the confusion is, I agree I would never introduce my kids to my home game or allow them to participate in one, however when I play poker with my kids it's not for money, yes we use chips, pretzels, whatever but there is no money being gambled nor is there any monetary value associated to the chips, pretzels, bullets, or whatever we use it's done with 'fun' in mind not gambling. I think we both agree to some degree, although you may disagree.
/g2
Edit: thanks Chris
I disagree. I think people responding (and thus thinking) about posted hands is useful. Even if you're completely wrong. Try to illustrate your thought process on a hand, and that gets other people reading the post thinking about that elusive "why". Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like that many hands are posted, whether it be laziness, fear of getting flamed, whatever.
I'd hazard that a lot of the "old regulars" have seen said hands posted numerous times already (many of which masquerading as a brag/bad beat post), and either don't figure a reply is useful (let someone else think about it and post) or let someone search for a previous post relating to the problem. Possibly a combination of laziness and indifference.
Beanie's dead on that the thought process is what matters. I think what probably frustrates some the "older posters" is that we've already seen 8 billion hand posts that typically are bad beats/cold deck/brag posts, rather than are looking for any sort of critique or provide any sort of useful debate. Similarly, if you're going to post ANY NL hand, you MUST provide reads of the situation, as NL is much more read based than anything else.
Maybe this is just typical of the maturation of any forum, where what might be an interesting hand for a new player is really a very common "YAWN" post to someone who's seen a lot more hands/posts. In which case, maybe the solution is simply for the experienced players to say NOTHING, and let other people discuss it. Of course, this may get back to the problem of why some people aren't choosing to post in the first place...
Definitely.
Abso-F'ing-lutely. I just recently went to the casino in town here. A 2+2er who also lives here described it like Party Poker in its heyday. Lo and behold, it was true!!! Live poker is always fun, but infinitely moreso when you keep scooping pots against someone who hits middle pair, and thinks you're bluffing. As I have never played a ton of live poker, I'm finding noticing obvious tells to be quite entertaining. But, who am I kidding - I simply like making easy money - the free sodas is just gravy.
In short - I am almost exactly in the same boat as you - although I still play online. (On-line, I'm still home - the wife won't let me go out to the casino more than 3 times a week).
HEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Um... do you want an honest answer? Yes, I think a parent should be the one to teach his kids about sex. Do you want your son learning from his friends (probably incorrectly), or is it better for him to not know and use his future wife as a guinea pig? I don't expect my son will use anything I've taught him for another decade, but he still needs/wants to know, and I won't hide it so it seems taboo or forces him to go elsewhere to get his questions answered.
Most things in life have a dangerous side, but that doesn't mean you avoid it altogether. Whether it's poker, drinking, sex, or firearms (the examples listed above), they can be enjoyed safely and responsibly, or they can be abused. You simply have to take the time and effort to teach your kids the "right" way - it's called parenting. And I think waiting until the child is involved in an activity is too late - start teaching them when they can understand and they show interest.
Now as far as poker goes, I still like playing on line but that's only since I have limited time to get to a casino. It's hard enough just to get to waterloo to play the heads up tourney. Speaking of which, I gotta go, be there soon Beanie
Yes, at an age appropriate time. I don't let my kids watch Pulp Fiction, but at some point they will. I am not going to teach a 7 year old about the clitoris and oral sex. There is a time when that will be appropriate but it is not now. I think it is much better to teach a child play chess and backgammon to learn about strategy and whatnot. Why bring in craps, blackjack and other gambling games (yes I know you can gamble in Backgammon but it is not what the game is all about).
I was brought to the racetrack at a very young age and they are not pleasant memories. But that delves a little too deep.
They can do this???? Man I really have to hang around longer or stop falling asleep after?
Seriously tho, we all parent how we see fit and we all believe we're right, who's to say who is right or who is wrong...I guess time will tell and we'll be able to watch our kids grow up into educated quality people, hopefully. Myself I choose to educate my kids rather then try and hide the the stuff in life that some people may think is nasty or wait too long and try to get them to un-learn things they picked up from friends or other people. My kids are 6 and 7 and we have had talks about sex, the human body, gambling, and drugs. I saw a special on meth the other day and there was a guy on there who got addicted at the age of 12, 12 years old man...that is sad!!!! I also just found out a family moved in 4 houses down from me because their last house blew up while the father was cooking meth, this scares me, it actually scares the shit out of me. Not just that this could happen again 4 house away but I think of the people that will now be in my neighbourhood and around my kids, the toxic waste that may be near and the fact that this stuff is real and it is in our neighbourhoods, frankly it makes me sick to my stomach. I want my kids educated about this stuff. I tried a lot of drugs growing up, nothing too serious, the usual pot, hash, acid, and a little coke...my parents never discussed this stuff with me, my brother was heavy into it to the point of both using and dealing and I looked up to my brother, I was clueless as to the effects or consequences and ended up getting into it so I could look cool in front of my brother. Had I been better educated I may have made a better decision. I finally got to the point where I did not like how I felt when I did some of this stuff so I managed to stop, some people never get there. Same goes for sex, my family never discussed this...thank god I was fortunate enough to be able to get enough practice in growing up so that today I think my wife might actually enjoy it? My first time was at what I thought to be a young age, 15, nowadays I hear about kids 12 and 13 not only having sex but getting pregnant....we as parents may not feel our kids are ready to talk about some of this stuff at 6, 7, or 8 but I personally believe they are, I think we underestimate what our kids are ready for. I think if you could be a fly on the wall at a school yard when the kids are playing you'd be surprised at what you'd hear. I don't want my kids to find things out the hard way or the wrong way, sure they still may choose to try this or that but I can only hope that I educate them enough so that they make a wise decision. I'm sorry but IMHO 7 is not too young to have these discussions, kids are becoming addicts or getting pregnant at younger ages every year and I want my kids educated at the earliest age they can comprehend it and I believe that's pretty much once they start going to school. Who knows if we're doing a good job, I hope and pray we are. I just wanted to express my point of view.
Back off and get your own salad (ie, start your own OT thread to whine about this stuff)
I would make a smart ass comment here but I won't.
Post tend to have a life of their own and can easily go off topic. You generated several interesting points which in turn caused some very interesting discussions, just because it deviated from the original topics doesn't mean you should get pissed off.