NL cash hand
$10/$10 NL cash game. Opponent is new to the table. You have $1300, he has $1000.
Folded to you in cutoff with KK. You make it $30. Both blinds call.
Flop: TT5 rainbow.
Checked to you, you bet $60. SB raises it to $140. BB folds. Your move?
Folded to you in cutoff with KK. You make it $30. Both blinds call.
Flop: TT5 rainbow.
Checked to you, you bet $60. SB raises it to $140. BB folds. Your move?
Comments
Since you have no read on him and he has no read on you, it's pretty hard for either of you to put the other on a hand. He could be thinking you're trying a standard steal and continuation pattern and he's putting you to the test. Of course he could have a legitimate hand, too.
Calling is the worst option here since if he comes out firing on the turn, your decision is even harder here.
I'd like to see some discussion on the size of the flop bet.
Call the flop bet, wait for him to fire another $210 on the turn and raise him up to $500. The way this hand has been played out thus far, I can't see me folding it. Am i giving this guy to much credit for trying to be tricky with a medium pair?
stp
I think it's very unlikely he's c/r holding a ten. The c/r is giving you a chance to fold early in the hand, and that flop is totally not scary for anyone holding a ten, facing a pre-flop raiser. The scarier and uncoordinated the board, and the larger the bets, you can have a higher degree of confidence that he doesn't have a monster.
So, I think you want to milk some nice money from him. A re-raise on the flop screams you have a big overpair and gives him a chance to fold. Why do that when you have a customer on the line. There are very few scare cards coming on the turn, so I think protecting your hand here is not required. So, I call the flop bet.
When he bets out the turn, I'm raising. The amount depends on how much he bet. I think his bet size will give you some good clues on what he's holding. I'd interpret any bet which would scare most players off the pot (you'll need to base this on the type of play at this level), as a I want you to fold your AK bet. A bet that looks like it wants to get called, I'd min. raise so I can get more of his money and not put too much of mine at risk, if he comes over the top all in. If he does that, on this sequence, I'd think you'd be getting odds to call, so I believe my min. raise is to get more of his money when I'm ahead.  I'm pretty much losing the most if I'm way behind.
If he makes a very large, I want you to fold bet on the turn, I'd be inclined to call again and see if he will fire one more bullet on the river. Reminds me of Eric Siedel's favourite hand he recounted on TSN on Sunday where he let Johnny Chan keep betting into him when he knew he had the best hand.
I'd be laying odds of 10 to 1 you got this guy's whole stack at some point and you're really not sure that you took the best line.
Cheers
Magi
To review:
I couldn't put him on a ten at this point. And I didn't want to give my hand away. So, I just called.
The turn brought a jack. SB led out for $280. Now what?
Well, we ARE in online poker talk ...
I don't think the J makes a big difference. Â You are only worried about JJ after the turn. Â Everything else is the same. Â He may have picked up a draw, but otherwise I don't see a much different scenario than the flop. Â Perhaps he has picked up a draw as well so you might want to hammer him out of the pot at this point.
Tough spot. I would probably call again with the intention of calling on the river.
In a tournament, I'd be inclined to move all-in on the turn (and would consider re-raising the flop), but in a cash game your goal is to maximize your $ win with strong hands without fear of going broke. Ed Miller makes this point most clearly:
"The goal of no-limit is to induce players with weaker hands than yours to call (or make) large bets. You aren't trying to push people off hands. You aren't trying to run everyone out of pots. You want a good hand, and you want someone to call you."
I like your (natural looking) flop bet and then your call on the flop. You are way ahead or way behind. Folding on the flop would not be all that crazy, but I'm inclined to agree with everyone who has put the (unknown) opponent on not having a T (or 55).
Calling the turn bet seems the most reasonable to me. Raising right now will probably only let your opponent get away from a worse hand than Kings-up, or force you to lose the maximum in the less likely case that you really are beat.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
ScottyZ
3 handed the check raise is a typical bluff move on a paired board. I would just call in this spot. Very tough turn play given that you have absolutely no read on this guy, why I prefer live play for NL cash, even when you first sit down you can have some level of read on a player pretty quickly at times.
As for what I would do on the turn and the river, I would take a page out of Doyle's book for this hand. Basically goes like this...if he's lucky enough to be holding a ten or JJ, you pay him off because in the long run you are way ahead of his range here. That being said, if you mini raise the turn and he isn't holding a ten or jacks then you are screaming that you have the ten, your only choice is to smooth call as you have position and can try and maximize the river. If he is drawing he has incorrect odds regardless given his remaining stack and you want to give him opportunity to bluff into you on the river. Not saying that you don't lose 1k here at times, but that's poker.
What I would do, above. This is of course easier said than done. If he thinks your preflop bet is a pure steal he could have very well called with pretty much anything, a suited ten comes to mind. One with a weak kicker, lets say 107s. I'm starting to question myself here as I'm remembering something someone said once. I'll try and quote it properly:
This is tough considering we know absolutely nothing and we have a monster AND his play isn't what I would call conventional.
stp
Doesn't this depend entirely on the player? Suppose villain is a semi-weak player with a semi-legitimate hand, who overvalues hands and will make some marginal calls. I'd guess he's more likely to make a bad call then betting out again if another scare card falls (let's say he has something like 99-66). If he's an utter LAG, I totally agree with your assessment though. He's going to bet more of his weak hands on bluffs than he'd call with, and you don't want to shut him down.  I guess player B is more likely than player A at 10-10NL (and from the way the hand has played out so far), but there are always exceptions...
KK is a monster pre-flop. Is it still a monster with a board of TT5J? It's good but...
Say the river is a Q. If he bets another 400-500, do you still call? If he checks, do you bet? Now, what if the river is an A instead?
I much prefer a re-raise early in the hand. Win a decent pot with a good hand as opposed to losing a huge one with the second best hand.
A very reasonable approach to tournament hands, but I'm not sure that this is necessarily the best way to think about NL cash games.
As I mentioned before, simply folding to the flop check-raise is not crazy, and would be even less crazy in a tournament.
Yes. I'm not sure that a Q changes the nature of the hand. Maybe we just got smoked by an oddly played AK or 98. But these are two exact hands, and ones that seem unlikely based on the previous betting action.
Close decision, but I'd lean towards just checking it down. It's hard to imagine a river bet having much of a value component to it; i.e. what are the kinds of hands are out there that you beat and that he will call you with? There are loads of hands here that will satisfy only one of those criteria.
Tough decision if the opponent bets. Easy check if the opponent checks.
ScottyZ
if,if,if...I say the odds are in your favour at every stage of this hand, if you lose you rebuy but you have to play this hand for maximum value. If you could play this hand 100 seperate times then which line would you take? Come up with your answer and then that would be the correct line
I flat called.
The river was a queen. SB went all-in for $550. I called, and he showed me 55.Â
I think my opponent played the hand well. Given the action, I put him on a pocket pair, TT or lower. Since two tens were on the flop, I figured he had 99, 88, 77, and his turn bet was a "go away" bet, and his river bet was a desperate one. I was wrong. I thought a flopped monster would wait until a later street to spring the trap. Ugh... and, ugh.
Agreed I like his line. It gets the money in and has the "it looks like I'm FOS" factor too.
Don't overvalue big pocket pairs.
Don't assume that players will always slowplay flopped monsters.
I guess the real question is, against most opponents, most of the time, would my KK have been good in that spot?
p.s until you told us what the guy had, i had put him on a pokcet pair over tens :S
Anything that happens to me (poker-related of course) is fair game for broadcast.
A lot of people like to check/raise a flopped set or even trips, they don't even think about how to make there apponent commited. Lets say that Devins opponent did flop a 10 and check raised him on the flop devin might lay down, and he wins his $90 + Devins flop bet $75 (roughly). But if his opponent leads at the pot $75 and Devin raises to $275 now this opens the door to win a lot of chips. His oponent can then either smooth call or push. If the the board is suited I usually push because if the flush fills its going to scare away action.
Of course this works much better with a set instead of trips.
Wader