Andy Beal crushes the corporation

If you have read "The Philosopher, The Banker, and the Suicide King" you will know who Andy Beal is.

Yesterday, he left Vegas a winner. Is this good or bad for poker? Here is a snippet from some correspondence I have had (identities protected):

Received by me:

Bluffmagazine forum administrators have reported that Beal took down the corporation for $10,000,000 over the last 3 days. On day 1 he beat Harman for 5mil, beat Todd Brunson for 1.5 mil on day 2, and Ted Forest apparently dropped 3.5 million on day 3.

Sent by me to source:

Any truth?

Received from source:

Yup - and I was there. In fact I had lunch with Andy Beal right after the victory.
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Comments

  • I wonder if Andy picked up the tab?
  • Mind telling us who the source is? :D Is it Michael Craig?

    Interesting how CP haven't posted anything yet, but more interesting how CP said Jenn lost 2 million, rather then 5 according to Bluff.
  • Is this good or bad for poker?

    Good. Extremely good. Chris Moneymaker winning the WSOP good.

    ScottyZ
  • Lots of posts on Bluff forum - it does sound legit.
    westside8 wrote:
    Mind telling us who the source is?  :D  Is it Michael Craig?

    Interesting how CP haven't posted anything yet, but more interesting how CP said Jenn lost 2 million, rather then 5 according to Bluff.
    CP doesn't seem to have the most current updates, and Bluff got Craig to write an article for them, thus the better info from Bluff. For "proof by association", apparantly Barry Greenstein contacted Bluff for some updates on what was going on, so it would seem to be reliable.

    I'd love to see this match - that would be great TV :)
  • It's not Michael Craig. Although, he was at the lunch. I don't mean to be particularly mysterious, I just don't know if my friends want to be outed.

    I met Mr Craig at the 2005 and fell all over myself complimenting his book. Nice guy. Awesome book. He is writing more on the Andy Beal game.
  • I agree with Beanie, Bluff have the more accurate updates, and it seems like they're "the source" for this game.

    I have been lurking at Bluff's forum for quite a while (at least a few months), maybe I should sign up one day. According to the forum, Michael will be having a 15K article published in the April edition of Bluff magazine, can't wait.
  • As I understand it, Beal's PR guy posts to Bluff so it's pretty darn reliable.
  • Yes he did in fact post in the thread regarding Beal's second visit (after the Super Bowl weekend)
  • ScottyZ wrote:
    Is this good or bad for poker?

    Good. Extremely good. Chris Moneymaker winning the WSOP good.

    ScottyZ

    I see your point, but don't you think it's bad that 10 million dollars is now gone from the "poker world"?  You know how poker money gets redistributed all the time... filters down to the lower limits after Jennifer Harman loses 400K to player X in a cash game, player X takes that and loses 200K of it in a smaller game to player Y, player Y takes that and loses 100K of it in a smaller game to player Z, and so on, and so on, until eventually it bankrolls some bad 20/40 players for us to beat up on...

    Or am I crazy here.
  • There was a pretty big flame war on bluff about the tricke down effect in the poker world. Knowing that I will watch my step and try to frame the argument a little better. The basic premise put forth was that money trickles down in the poker world. Now I believe the original poster on the bluff forum chose a bad analogy to illustrate the point. The fact is money does trickle down in poker but the majority funnels up to the better players. This of course assumes that the players at higher levels are better players. Okay that is a rather large assumption but lets run with it. I agree with you aces that having 10 million out of the poker world is probably a bad thing. But as low and middle limit players I doubt that will have any impact on our games. The ten million out of the poker world will affect the higher limit for sure. But only for a little while. And to Scottyz I do agree that the advertising this creates for the huge whales to come to Vegas and try beat the pros can only be good. The only thing is along with everything else around this game it has been blown out of proportion. I don't think Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are watching and saying to themselves "Hey maybe I can do that too?" I guess what it comes down to is the old, beat-up poker truism "It depends".

    My two cents

    Paul
  • Good points Paul, thanks.
  • Poker money trickles down? No. Not at all.

    There is a net in one direction or the other. The operator's of my sponsor online sites tell me that a HUGE majority of money is cashed out of the sites at the bigger levels. Money trickles up. And up. And up.

    This $10 million is gone to the poker community. It is, however, a drop in the bucket. I am with ScottyZ, big time. Amateurs beating pros is good press. How inspiring would it be to learn that Gurn Blandson practiced for a year and then beat Tiger Woods. Amateurs would be very inspired and would not care that Gurn had millions to hire the best coaches, etc.
  • I'd be shocked that it doesn't trickle "up"

    Maybe it gets "shuffled" near the top. But, 90% of the grinders on here, made money at low limits, moved up, lost.
    Went back down, made money, moved up, won, moved farther up, lost and repeated...

    My guess is most of the money finds it way to the top of the pyramid.
  • Devin must be a Reaganite.
  • This is good -- very good.

    I don't think it will bring a bunch of amatuers to the game, but it gives all of the players out there hope that they too can beat the big game. They just need the dough to get there -- right?

    The reality is that Andy's study of the game got him to this point -- and the top pros really don't like to study. Heck, they can't even get up in the morning for the biggest game they every played (todd brunson had to let his dad play one of the sessions until he could get up in the afternoon).

    There's going to be a new breed of top pros, and they will put this current crop to shame. Kind of like the hockey world (I don't know other sports). Used to be that raw talent got you to the top ranks. Once there, drinking smoking and lots of RR during the off season was the general practice. These days, if you're not in top shape all year round, you're sucking wind in the minor leagues.

    Good, very good.

    Cheers
    Magi
  • I think also alot of these pros have been capitalizing on the boom of poker to expand their wealth and taking advantages of some of the opportunities they are having now to invest in other business opportunities, which also takes alot of time away from their playing time (Howard Lederer lately, DN in 04 etc). At the same time, they are also not accustom to playing HU LHE, where as Andy trained specificly for HU. Definitely the advantage the pros will have should Andy decide to sit at their regular 4K/8K game at the Bellagio would be higher since Andy is not "trained" for that game (not even mixed games, just LHE).

    Just my two cents...
  • For the pros this has to be one of the biggest sins in poker -- putting ego infront of game selection. After the last time with Beal, I belive it was Greenstein that stated that the pros have a minimal to zero edge vs the banker, so why are they playing him? Ego.
  • Back to the $10 million, I can't see how this is bad for poker. Yes, that money is gone, but its been taken out of the highest level, none of us are affected by that unless you wanted to play $4000/$8000 at the Bellagio. All it means is that the pros have a bit less money right now, but it will soon be replaced I'm sure.
  • Interesting story. I really should read that book.

    That 10 mil likely represents all the chips members of the 'corporation' keep in safety deposit boxes in Vegas. Sure their net worth is much bigger but it's not readily accessible for gambling. So ya, the loss is a big deal to them. And it will put a damper on high stakes poker in Vegas since it'll be a while before that money is replenished.

    As an aside, what do you think the total income (gambling and all the other ventures) and net worth of the corporation is? Compared to Andy Beal, I expect it is peanuts. As I understand it, his recipe is to increase the stakes to the point where the corporation is effectively playing with scared money. If the stakes are immaterial to Beal, he just has to ride the variance rollercoaster and get off at the top. Last time, I hear he stayed on too long...
  • Did Beal not drop 3 million to Ted Forrest the week before and then announce his "retirement"?
    I know I saw a story about that.
  • Yes, he did get beat for $3 million earlier.

    The $10 million, however, makes him a net winner lifetime.
    his recipe is to increase the stakes to the point where the corporation is effectively playing with scared money.

    I think he has lost this edge. Members of the corporation have pieced themselves off. He may have it now that they have been stunng for $10 million since if the game goes again (I hear it will, maybe this week) then they are that much closer to getting broke.
  • Phil Ivey cleans out Andy Beal. Check thread below for more details

    http://bluffmagazine.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2691&PN=1
  • 10 mil in 4 hours...... ouch.
  • MichaelCraig
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    Joined: 13 February 2006
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    Posted: 23 February 2006 at 8:33pm | IP Logged Quote MichaelCraig

    My apologies for the delay. Ivey wins $10 million today. Beal is done with poker. More to follow.



    Interesting read, thanks for the link
  • Any guesses on how long Beal's retirement will actually last :)
  • According to Mr. Craig, Beal gave him his timer, so he might be serious this time. Who knows.

    Over/under 6 months anyone? :D
  • beanie42 wrote:
    Any guesses on how long Beal's retirement will actually last :)

    until there's a new reload bonus?
  • magithighs wrote:
    There's going to be a new breed of top pros, and they will put this current crop to shame. Kind of like the hockey world (I don't know other sports). Used to be that raw talent got you to the top ranks. Once there, drinking smoking and lots of RR during the off season was the general practice. These days, if you're not in top shape all year round, you're sucking wind in the minor leagues.

    So what's the right approach? I assume that the pros have the math down cold, for the most part.

    It seems to me that the differentiator is a pathologic disregard for the value of money and an intuitive ability to determine where you stand vs. your opponent.

    Andy Beal made his edge by raising the stakes to the point where it causes the pros some discomfort (IMO).

    Barring becoming a billionaire first, how do you "train" to be a poker pro? Meditation? Study? Provigil?


    Sean
  • Phil Ivey is a beast.

    P.S. I can't wait to see the stories in Bluff magazine...
  • Phil Ivey is Tom Henke in 92.

    Phil Ivey is Darth Vader when he crushes that dudes neck.

    Phil Ivey is the bull when it is ramming his horn up some poor bastards cornhole in Pamplona.

    Phil Ivey is Chuck Norris in that funny Chuck Norris email.

    Phil Ivey is the great wall of china when that dude tried to jump it on his bmx.


    I could go on with the metaphorical superlatives...but seriously, is there anyone on this board who doesn't think Phil Ivey is the best poker player on the planet?
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