I bet, the other player threw them facedown. The player beside him said show us your cards. He flipped them up and he had a straight flush. He was awarded the pot.
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
Little known rule 2b:
2b) If a player mucks his cards, the cards remain live if the following conditions are met:
a) His cards remain in arms reach and have not touched any other mucked cards
b) He manages to grab the cards back before the dealer touches the cards
c) He didn't really mean to do it, and he verbally declares "Oops I made a boo-boo"
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
Little known rule 2b:
2b) If a player mucks his cards, the cards remain live if the following conditions are met:
a) His cards remain in arms reach and have not touched any other mucked cards
b) He manages to grab the cards back before the dealer touches the cards
c) He didn't really mean to do it, and he verbally declares "Oops I made a boo-boo"
LMAO, iI have to assume this thread was a trolll???
In essence, I would say this becomes a judgement call, and hence as per my original post, I'd say I want the dealer/floor to use COMMON SENSE, since it's in the best interest of the game. I'd probably also give the person who inadvertantly semi-mucked a warning to ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR HAND, since this would make common sense, and be in the best interest of the game...
Oh my god, someone finally used thier brain. Don't be so fast to give the pot to the worse hand guys. Why is a warning not an acceptable solution? Was this error so outrageous and damaging to the game that the only solution is to disqualify a players hand?
Others lash out at others because they have a huge ego and try to put the blame on others for their errors.
I don't understand why you feel a need to take a cheap shot at me. My OP was at like 6AM two hours after I think I was wronged, so I think I'm allowed to be a little fuming. YOU on the other hand decide to be a jerk two days later.
One last thing, coming from me as a player and a floor: As much as we as players think we are great and important and deserve to be treated like gods cuz we are all the next Moneymaker and just on the verge of winning the WSOP...WE ARE NOT!!!
Holy shit, you guys read far too much into my posts.
Maybe this thread is a put-on?
I hope you never screw up at a poker table and disagree with a ruling.
If you had said that you were showing them and that they accidentally landed face down we'd have a different discussion
I hope you are kidding.
LMAO, iI have to assume this thread was a trolll???
I apologize for using this thread to talk about poker, instead of using it like you to pimp your illegal home games and line your wallet with cash.
In essence, I would say this becomes a judgement call, and hence as per my original post, I'd say I want the dealer/floor to use COMMON SENSE, since it's in the best interest of the game. I'd probably also give the person who inadvertantly semi-mucked a warning to ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR HAND, since this would make common sense, and be in the best interest of the game...
Oh my god, someone finally used thier brain. Don't be so fast to give the pot to the worse hand guys. Why is a warning not an acceptable solution? Was this error so outrageous and damaging to the game that the only solution is to disqualify a players hand?
Others lash out at others because they have a huge ego and try to put the blame on others for their errors.
I don't understand why you feel a need to take a cheap shot at me. My OP was at like 6AM two hours after I think I was wronged, so I think I'm allowed to be a little fuming. YOU on the other hand decide to be a jerk two days later.
One last thing, coming from me as a player and a floor: As much as we as players think we are great and important and deserve to be treated like gods cuz we are all the next Moneymaker and just on the verge of winning the WSOP...WE ARE NOT!!!
Holy shit, you guys read far too much into my posts.
Maybe this thread is a put-on?
I hope you never screw up at a poker table and disagree with a ruling.
If you had said that you were showing them and that they accidentally landed face down we'd have a different discussion
I hope you are kidding.
LMAO, iI have to assume this thread was a trolll???
I apologize for using this thread to talk about poker, instead of using it like you to pimp your illegal home games and line your wallet with cash.
I don't run a home game, I prefer lining my wallet with cash by playing in games where I know the rules prior to wagering.
I guess you should have used yours in AC. You mucked, you intended to muck so you lose plain and simple. Who in their right mind throws their cards 2 feet towards the dealer face down and expects to win a pot. Come on!!
I'm of the opinion that if you can retrieve your hand before the dealer grabs it and puts it in the muck... it's still in play. Clearly no one has acted on your fold, and there's no doubt about the identity of your cards... split pot.
The house has a rule that states... "that says any hand toss facedown towards the dealer is dead."... Fine... since this goes farther than most cardrooms, maybe they should have this posted somewhere <b>more</b> visible!
After the floor's comments, you should have given him the nit dance* as you racked up!!
*nit dance:
3 hops on right foot, 3 hops on left, repeat...
... singing loudly...
"Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit, you're a nit...
Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit & full of sh*t"
After the floor's comments, you should have given him the nit dance* as you racked up!!
*nit dance:
3 hops on right foot, 3 hops on left, repeat...
... singing loudly...
"Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit, you're a nit...
Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit & full of sh*t"
I'll have to add that one to my repitoire but I may have to free up the dance slot allocated to the 'butter churn' to make room for it..
Moose...to answer you question he did call my bet and I turned over my cards 1st. He never showed any one his hand and mucked it thinking I had him beat.
BBC...Why am I being a jerk?
How many times do people post here asking a question and you go out of your way
to make them feel like an idiot?
You made a rookie mistake at a casino. You had a little temper tantrum because you didn't get your way with the Poker Room Staff @ Caesars. Now your getting pissed at us because we are not agreeing with your notion that you got shafted.
Because you think this has something to do with ego.. And your passive aggressive method of taking some shots at me is lame this far after the original incident.
How many times do people post here asking a question and you go out of your way
to make them feel like an idiot?
5. And I was justified every time.
Now your getting pissed at us because we are not agreeing with your notion that you got shafted.
Yet again, you guys read too much into my posts.. As if defending my point of view is wrong or something.
My question to you is two parts...a) how were you doing prior to leaving...and b) why not stay and win those chips back?
I was +$60 at the time, I liked the table but it was getting late and my motto to myself on this trip was to NOT go crazy for two reasons. One, I have to drive 10 hours back alone so I have to be alert and two, I have to do real work when I get back to town so I can't screw up my sleeping schedule...
It was 5 handed with no reduced rake, so I was very close to leaving anyway. Once the ruling pissed me off, I was in no condition to play SH and I knew it. I'm pretty honest with myself, so if I start to feel my interest wane or look up at my opponents and see 9 new faces staring back at me, I know its time to leave..
*nit dance:
3 hops on right foot, 3 hops on left, repeat...
... singing loudly...
"Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit, you're a nit...
Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit & full of sh*t"
I don't believe the rule was intended to cover my scenario. Thats why I'm surprised at the responses.
I don't believe there is a rule to cover your specific scenario. It sounds like the floor made a decision to honor the closest rule he could find to the letter. I don't think you can fault him for that as long as he uses that approach everytime a questionable situation comes up. I also believe he would have been correct to rule the hand live and split the pot as it did not fit the printed rule exactly. I too believe the rules to be a guideline. Unfortunately for you he chose the former. Regardless of the outcome you should know better....but you don't need us to tell you that, we've all done it before and I'm sure we will do it again. My question to you is two parts...a) how were you doing prior to leaving...and b) why not stay and win those chips back?
I see Scotty split this already so I threw this in here with the original post and left my other question in the new post......by the way BBC, had I been in that hand against you I would have split the pot
...I actually can't believe I'm hearing some of these responses. Do you think the rule was created to handle people who slightly toss thier cards towards the dealer then immediately turn them face up *OR* do you think the rule is there to prevent people from slightly tossing them facedown towards the dealer, watching the dealer award the pot to a player, THEN turning them faceup and claiming they won? No difference in the two scenarios?
Since you brought it up....no, there is no difference in the two scenarios you present in the paragraph above. In both cases, the cards are mucked.
Since you brought it up....no, there is no difference in the two scenarios you present in the paragraph above. In both cases, the cards are mucked.
Am I missing something here.. A 2 year old post necromanced for the above??
Since you brought it back. There are 2 schools of thought on this point and poker rooms vary in their interpretation and implementation.
1) The idea of a magical muck. All cards are live and retrievable as long as they haven't touched this muck
2) The intent of the player. In this case, throwing your hand down in disgust towards the dealer, saying "OH SHIT" as you realize your mistake and retrieving your hand shows that you intended to fold but you realized your mistake.
Your expectation should be folded by number 2 in all cases, and be pleasantly surprised if you catch a break by number 1.
I like the idea that until a dealer touches the cards, they can be retrieved. Even if the dealer has them, provided they haven't touched the muck yet they can be retrieved. But I respect the number 2 rule.
I didnt realize this post was 2 yrs old until I got to page 6, but Im gonna reply anyways.
Ive been on poker dealer forums and this scenerio comes up a lot, and the majority of the rulings are that a hand is considered live until it hits the muck (even if its only 1 card), or the dealer touches it.
Im pretty sure that is the ruling at Brantford and Port Perry, and from what I hear from other dealers, a LOT of casinos in Vegas.
I was surprised when going through the pages of this post to find that almost everyone was agreeing that it was 100% a mucked hand. I was expecting to read about how everyone was shocked at the floors decision.
"mucking" your cards is more "a moment in time" rather than "a place on the table"
-Forward
-Face Down
-Released
At the moment that you toss your cards forward (1 inch, 2 feet, across the table, doesn't matter), face down and let them out of your possession, your cards should be considered MUCKED. During last year's NAPC, I ruled many hands dead when players did just the thing mentioned in the OP, including such players as Jean-Robert Belande and Gus Hansen (both of whom totally agreed with my call when I used the above reasoning to defend my decision; Jean-Robert telling me it was the best defined explanation he has been given by a floor).
I was surprised when going through the pages of this post to find that almost everyone was agreeing that it was 100% a mucked hand. I was expecting to read about how everyone was shocked at the floors decision.
+1000000
At the moment that you toss your cards forward (1 inch, 2 feet, across the table, doesn't matter)
13, it's ok that you don't possess the ability to interpet rules and have to rely on the cold literal interpretations.. You probably make a great lawyer.
13, it's ok that you don't possess the ability to interpet rules and have to rely on the cold literal interpretations.. You probably make a great lawyer or an excellent poker room floor supervisor.
Comments
How did he win the pot w/o calling your bet?
Little known rule 2b:
2b) If a player mucks his cards, the cards remain live if the following conditions are met:
a) His cards remain in arms reach and have not touched any other mucked cards
b) He manages to grab the cards back before the dealer touches the cards
c) He didn't really mean to do it, and he verbally declares "Oops I made a boo-boo"
LMAO, iI have to assume this thread was a trolll???
Oh my god, someone finally used thier brain. Don't be so fast to give the pot to the worse hand guys. Why is a warning not an acceptable solution? Was this error so outrageous and damaging to the game that the only solution is to disqualify a players hand?
I don't understand why you feel a need to take a cheap shot at me. My OP was at like 6AM two hours after I think I was wronged, so I think I'm allowed to be a little fuming. YOU on the other hand decide to be a jerk two days later.
Holy shit, you guys read far too much into my posts.
I hope you never screw up at a poker table and disagree with a ruling.
I hope you are kidding.
I apologize for using this thread to talk about poker, instead of using it like you to pimp your illegal home games and line your wallet with cash.
I don't run a home game, I prefer lining my wallet with cash by playing in games where I know the rules prior to wagering.
I guess you should have used yours in AC. You mucked, you intended to muck so you lose plain and simple. Who in their right mind throws their cards 2 feet towards the dealer face down and expects to win a pot. Come on!!
... but you knew that...
I'm of the opinion that if you can retrieve your hand before the dealer grabs it and puts it in the muck... it's still in play. Clearly no one has acted on your fold, and there's no doubt about the identity of your cards... split pot.
The house has a rule that states... "that says any hand toss facedown towards the dealer is dead."... Fine... since this goes farther than most cardrooms, maybe they should have this posted somewhere <b>more</b> visible!
After the floor's comments, you should have given him the nit dance* as you racked up!!
*nit dance:
3 hops on right foot, 3 hops on left, repeat...
... singing loudly...
"Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit, you're a nit...
Nit, nit, nit, you're a nit & full of sh*t"
nit
I'll have to add that one to my repitoire but I may have to free up the dance slot allocated to the 'butter churn' to make room for it..
How many times do people post here asking a question and you go out of your way
to make them feel like an idiot?
You made a rookie mistake at a casino. You had a little temper tantrum because you didn't get your way with the Poker Room Staff @ Caesars. Now your getting pissed at us because we are not agreeing with your notion that you got shafted.
Karma is a beautiful thing.
Because you think this has something to do with ego.. And your passive aggressive method of taking some shots at me is lame this far after the original incident.
5. And I was justified every time.
Yet again, you guys read too much into my posts.. As if defending my point of view is wrong or something.
Uhh yeah.
I was +$60 at the time, I liked the table but it was getting late and my motto to myself on this trip was to NOT go crazy for two reasons. One, I have to drive 10 hours back alone so I have to be alert and two, I have to do real work when I get back to town so I can't screw up my sleeping schedule...
It was 5 handed with no reduced rake, so I was very close to leaving anyway. Once the ruling pissed me off, I was in no condition to play SH and I knew it. I'm pretty honest with myself, so if I start to feel my interest wane or look up at my opponents and see 9 new faces staring back at me, I know its time to leave..
Nice. POTD Mickey. Gotta remember that one...
I don't believe there is a rule to cover your specific scenario. It sounds like the floor made a decision to honor the closest rule he could find to the letter. I don't think you can fault him for that as long as he uses that approach everytime a questionable situation comes up. I also believe he would have been correct to rule the hand live and split the pot as it did not fit the printed rule exactly. I too believe the rules to be a guideline. Unfortunately for you he chose the former. Regardless of the outcome you should know better....but you don't need us to tell you that, we've all done it before and I'm sure we will do it again. My question to you is two parts...a) how were you doing prior to leaving...and b) why not stay and win those chips back?
I see Scotty split this already so I threw this in here with the original post and left my other question in the new post......by the way BBC, had I been in that hand against you I would have split the pot
Yeah right.. If that hand happened when I was playing with Forumers, I'm sure they'd be asking the floor to divy up my stack too..
I love taking money from other players's errors...one of the main reasons I play this crazy game!
Since you brought it up....no, there is no difference in the two scenarios you present in the paragraph above. In both cases, the cards are mucked.
Am I missing something here.. A 2 year old post necromanced for the above??
Since you brought it back. There are 2 schools of thought on this point and poker rooms vary in their interpretation and implementation.
1) The idea of a magical muck. All cards are live and retrievable as long as they haven't touched this muck
2) The intent of the player. In this case, throwing your hand down in disgust towards the dealer, saying "OH SHIT" as you realize your mistake and retrieving your hand shows that you intended to fold but you realized your mistake.
Your expectation should be folded by number 2 in all cases, and be pleasantly surprised if you catch a break by number 1.
I like the idea that until a dealer touches the cards, they can be retrieved. Even if the dealer has them, provided they haven't touched the muck yet they can be retrieved. But I respect the number 2 rule.
13cards, you are still not.
Ive been on poker dealer forums and this scenerio comes up a lot, and the majority of the rulings are that a hand is considered live until it hits the muck (even if its only 1 card), or the dealer touches it.
Im pretty sure that is the ruling at Brantford and Port Perry, and from what I hear from other dealers, a LOT of casinos in Vegas.
I was surprised when going through the pages of this post to find that almost everyone was agreeing that it was 100% a mucked hand. I was expecting to read about how everyone was shocked at the floors decision.
-Forward
-Face Down
-Released
At the moment that you toss your cards forward (1 inch, 2 feet, across the table, doesn't matter), face down and let them out of your possession, your cards should be considered MUCKED. During last year's NAPC, I ruled many hands dead when players did just the thing mentioned in the OP, including such players as Jean-Robert Belande and Gus Hansen (both of whom totally agreed with my call when I used the above reasoning to defend my decision; Jean-Robert telling me it was the best defined explanation he has been given by a floor).
+1000000
13, it's ok that you don't possess the ability to interpet rules and have to rely on the cold literal interpretations.. You probably make a great lawyer.
Fixed Your Post