Floor ruling at Caesars. Right, wrong or other?
I'm playing 2/4.. It's 2am. I hold K2s in the BB. Flop comes KJ4. It comes headsup on the turn where I get checkraised when a J falls from an aggressive player. I call river brings a Q. He bets, I call.
Villian shows down KTo. I toss my hand facedown towards the dealer. Let's say 2 feet. Definately still with arms reach.
Right after I do this and before the dealer can do anything I say "oh shit" his kicker doesn't play and I flip my K2 face up.
Villian says I mucked. I say that my hand is live because it hasnt touched the muck (not even the dealers fingers).
We call the floor over who proceeds to declare my hand dead and awards the pot to the villian.
I proceed to rack up immediately from the table, have an "entertaining" discussion after with the floor to which he says "Why do you care, it's only 2/4" and I comment that they should get a pit boss who's actually played poker once in thier lives".. Needless to say, I was about one more comment away from getting kicked out..
ANYWAY
Whos right? The floor quotes the rulebook (which I made him show me in paper form) that says any hand toss facedown towards the dealer is dead. Right below it is a line that says the player must protect thier hand from the dealer awarding the pot to the wrong player.
I would think that cards speak regardless of the technical detail of the rulebook. Am I wrong? Is my personal permanent ban on playin at Caesar initiated unjustly? Or is the head of the pit boss so far up his ass he doesn't understand the spirit of the rules?
Discuss.
Villian shows down KTo. I toss my hand facedown towards the dealer. Let's say 2 feet. Definately still with arms reach.
Right after I do this and before the dealer can do anything I say "oh shit" his kicker doesn't play and I flip my K2 face up.
Villian says I mucked. I say that my hand is live because it hasnt touched the muck (not even the dealers fingers).
We call the floor over who proceeds to declare my hand dead and awards the pot to the villian.
I proceed to rack up immediately from the table, have an "entertaining" discussion after with the floor to which he says "Why do you care, it's only 2/4" and I comment that they should get a pit boss who's actually played poker once in thier lives".. Needless to say, I was about one more comment away from getting kicked out..
ANYWAY
Whos right? The floor quotes the rulebook (which I made him show me in paper form) that says any hand toss facedown towards the dealer is dead. Right below it is a line that says the player must protect thier hand from the dealer awarding the pot to the wrong player.
I would think that cards speak regardless of the technical detail of the rulebook. Am I wrong? Is my personal permanent ban on playin at Caesar initiated unjustly? Or is the head of the pit boss so far up his ass he doesn't understand the spirit of the rules?
Discuss.
Comments
I would generally think your desire for a place to follow the precise rules is something which you should be able to use to your advantage as opposed to hoping a ruling is enforced from time to time.
Suck it up and don't make the mistake again.
So you said his call was incorrect, made him show you the rule book, and then got angry because he's not ignoring the rules? What am I missing here?
The floor is right. You said so yourself, you threw your hand facedown toward the dealer- hand is mucked.
"the spirit of the rule" - grabbing your hand back from the muck does not meet the definition of "the player must protect their hand..." you already gave your hand up. The spirit of protecting it I believe is to flip it over in front of yourself and keep your hands on it until the dealer has called each and and begins to award the pot.
And I imagine if the table was turned and the "bad guy" was the one who tossed his cards, you'd see the pit boss's side, and congratulate him on the right call.
Scott
a) throw your cards face down -- as everyone knows you need to show your cards to win a pot on a showdown. (and most casinos you need to show both cards to win)
b) you would question such a simple rule. You were not protecting your cards and you threw them towards the dealer. It doesn't need to physically hit the muck for it to be mucked.
c) cried about it << Well that one is not so surprising.Â
It's a tough break but at least the mistake was made at a 2/4 table instead of a higher table or a major tournament. I believe they have poker lessons at casinos these days. Sometimes it is beneficial to watch them not for the actual "how to play" aspect but more for the explanation of the house rules for that casino. I watched when I was in Vegas for that reason as well as hunting the fish when the game opened up afterwards.
I think a lot of people enjoy poker in a more relaxed home game setting where the rules might be a bit softer and best hand wins or online where the software pushes the money to the winner. I think people need to adapt to casino's and "playing by their rules". Best you can do is protect your hand and when showing your hand announcing it so that pots that are rightfully yours are awarded to you.
I disagreed with the ruling. My only recourse of action is to either keep playing at the casino or take my rake elsewhere. If I'm going to leave, then I'm going to voice my displeasure. What's wrong with that? This is a customer service industry and I didn't think I was being treated fairly.
Whenever you award the pot to the non-best hand, you fucked up as a floor. Could a more reasonable solution be to give me a warning and split the pot? You guys treat these rules as if they are 10 commandments. They're not. They're suggestions to guide the floor a reasonable decision.
Hell no. If the floor awarded me a pot under any kind of circumstances where a nit-ish rule was invoked, I would split the pot. Everytime. You may think I'm an asshole, but I'm not an angleshooting nit.
I actually can't believe I'm hearing some of these responses. Do you think the rule was created to handle people who slightly toss thier cards towards the dealer then immediately turn them face up *OR* do you think the rule is there to prevent people from slightly tossing them facedown towards the dealer, watching the dealer award the pot to a player, THEN turning them faceup and claiming they won? No difference in the two scenarios?
I must say, I'm easily getting the $20 worth of entertainment from you guys.
I personally believe the rules are there to prevent angle shooting.
Infamous hand from a home tournament last year; Three players in a hand, A, B, and C. A has a moderate hand, but doesn't want to commit chips to the pot because they are two players left behind him. Without saying anything, player A throws down his hand off to the side and Player B folds. Seeing that he was now only up against one opponent, Player A picked up his hand and claimed that B was acting out of turn, then moved all-in. Player C folded. A wouldn't have been able to make his move had he not angled the fold out of B. The definiation of a muck needs to be clearly defined so people can't get away with stuff like this.
Now, obviously, in this case, where it goes to a showdown (and you're last to act) there's not much of an angle that you could be shooting. But you did "muck" your hand according to the correct definition.
If this were a friendly home game, I'm sure it would be forgiven, but at a proper casino, the floor would be 100% in error to rule in your favour here. I agree with their ruling. I know it sucks because it was an honest mistake on your part.
On an aside, you said that this ruling caused you to leave the game (which was a good thing, because it sounded like you were going to tilt soon). If I had seen this, it would make me want to stay because I'd know that I'd have a competant floor that understands and upholds the rules of the game.
 I see this as turning into an infamous "flame war"  let's not get riled up.  I think the bottom line is:
BBC_Z: Â You made a mistake, happens to everyone, and the pit boss decided to take the letter of the law - unfortunate, but well within his rights (not unlike police officers "discretion" to hand out tickets - which I myself have been pissed off about). Â As was said once, the best thing to do is learn from it, and always try to apply yourself to the most stringent of rules. It seems this particular boss was applying the rules to everyone regardless of their perceived intentions (now if he was changing the rules for hot blonde in a low cut dress, I'd be livid!), which is an admirable quality.
Everyone else: Â I think that we all agree that the pit boss was well within his rights to do this, and we may have done the same. Â BBC_Z got screwed out of a pot that at any home game wouldn't have been a big deal. Â Imagine yourself in that situation, and how anger-inducing it would be.
 Bottom line:  Dude that sucks, but there's really nothing that can be done.
Let's not let this turn into another "Lee: I knew a 7 was due" conversation...
Mark
I agree, I can't change the decision. The reason for this thread was the determine if it's the right ruling. IE, put yourself in the floors' shoes. You get called over to the game when this happens. What do you do that results in the fairest decision? I'm shocked to discover 99% would rule the same way.
Everyone wants a fast game, but then when a mistake occurs because a player is trying to keep the game moving and theres no leeway. I don't ever want to hear you complain about slow acting players. Ever.
At my table, the norm was for a player to toss a $5 chip into the pot and then declare if they were raising or calling. Plenty of 6 chip calls for bets of 4 etc..
heh, yeah.. It was great thinking of all the ways I was gonna get even.. Like walking over to the promotions desk and telling them to cancel my players card.. but then I played a great hour of craps AT THE SANDS (for $20) and was back to normal. Heck, I even rolled my point three times.
What I don't understand is you created this thread for the sole purpose of asking our opinion... then you are either shocked or argue our position???
Scott
Arguing his position is perfectly valid IMO, leads to a better discussion. However (and sincerely, not for a "flame-war"), I'm curious why you're surprised at the response? I'd think you'd want a floor like this who follows the rules exactly rather than making occasional exceptions. In this case, any exception he would make seems "mostly harmless", but as other posts have shown, when the floor deviates from the rules it can be far more serious (and bizarre).
I don't believe the rule was intended to cover my scenario. Thats why Im surprised at the responses.
I don't want a floor that dictates his decisions based only on the rulebook. I want a floor that bases his decisions on the rulebook and his own experiences. Do you see how having a floor like this can lead to some major angle shooting?
I agree with Rob, this rule prevents angle shooting. However, just because you weren't angle shooting doesn't mean that it's permissible for you to break the rule. You mucked your hand and that's the end of it.
What if the situation were turned around and it was a high roller who mucked the K2 after the pot was awarded to you or another player at the table? Â Would you be pleased if the floor bent the rules to keep the high roller happy?
Also, could you please give an example of how this rule can lead to some major angle shooting? Once a player mucks their hand they are out of the hand, how are they supposed to shoot any angles after that?
/g2
1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
Since hero is closing the action, I don't think this applies.
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
In essence, I would say this becomes a judgement call, and hence as per my original post, I'd say I want the dealer/floor to use COMMON SENSE, since it's in the best interest of the game. I'd probably also give the person who inadvertantly semi-mucked a warning to ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR HAND, since this would make common sense, and be in the best interest of the game...
I would completely agree with you if this was a home game. But at a casino, where you're not likely to have friendly relationships between most players, you need to have a set of rules and those rules need to be enforced. Roberts Rules do not apply (unless otherwise stated).
/g2
But in this case it is clear that, according to the rules, BBC mucked his hand.
/g2
And FWIW the floor's comment that:
is completely unacceptable. I mean wtf is that guy thinking? He just rules against a player in a questionable manner and then baits him with a jackass line like this? He's probably one of those little weiners in a bar that's drunk out of his mind lipping off some guy twice his size because he knows his 6 buddies that are 6-4 250 have his back. I'd probably flip him back the line that "If it's only 2-4 then why don't you just give me the pot then, or stop taking rake on it, since it's only 2-4." Potentially followed by some sort of comment about his head being stuck somewhere (depending on how drunk I was). IMO the floor RULING isn't that horrendous, but their handling of everything else was...
Sorry BBC I think the floor was 100% right. And you exercised your right to leave. In a casino rules are rules and I don't believe there should be any discretion or you get rules that can't be enforced at all. Rules that are not equally enforced lead to dissatisfied players all round.
Maybe this thread is a put-on?
Forward motion, face down is a muck. No question.
1. ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR HAND!!! It is solely the player's responsibility to do this.
I never let go of my cards until:
a. I am mucking; or
b. I have been awarded a pot. If I get to showdown, I turn over my cards, with one finger on each one. If I am declared the winner, the dealer does not get my cards until I have the chips. If I lose, then I muck.
2. RULES ARE RULES!!! They are not guidelines. The floor at Ceasar's enforced the RULES but deviated from the guidelines of how to provide good customer service and basic tact with his comments. And whether or not a floor sup plays poker or not does not, in any way, diminish their ability to enforce the rules. I supervisor poker. I also play poker. But I work with people who do not play and some of them know the rule book inside out, better than I do, or ever will. Because they choose to not play poker (for their own personal reasons) does not mean they can't be compassionate and understanding when they enforce the rules.
Put a very simple way, all a player has to do to win a pot at showdown, is reveal their cards, face up. Nothing more. If a player chooses to not do that, they risk relinquishing their right to any or all of the pot. The comments from BBC about the pot being awarded to the player with the best hand is childish. Many, many hands are won by Player A with the inferior hand, when Player B with the superior hand mucks his cards (whether from excellent play by Player A or from a mistake on Player B's part).
One last thing, coming from me as a player and a floor: As much as we as players think we are great and important and deserve to be treated like gods cuz we are all the next Moneymaker and just on the verge of winning the WSOP...WE ARE NOT!!! Not in a casino's eyes. We are the lowest of the low. On a scale of players (slot players, craps players, BJ players, VIP players, poker players, etc..), we rank just above the gum stuck under the table. Seriously. The casino makes zero money from us. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. In fact, some casinos even lose money by running a poker room. The floor space you as a player takes up could easily be filled with at least one slot machine. And we all know how much of a cash-cow those things are. Take a room, with 10 tables, staff it with at least 13 dealers, 3 floors, a brush, 2 Room Managers, get cards, chips, chairs, etc etc etc. Now rake or charge session. You'll quickly see how hard it is too keep the lights and heat on in the casino. We are worthless. Sorry to say it. But I know it from the casino's side of things. And I accept it as a player. What does it mean? Simply this...when I play, I expect 1 thing and one thing only. That the casino runs a fair and consistent application of the house rules to all players all the time.
OUT
Brace thyself.
Another time a player pushed his cards face down like BBC and then picked them back up. The dealer advised the player that he was lucky. The dealer said that if he had of touched the players cards they would have been considered mucked. The dealer made it clear that we could still pick up our cards before he touched them.
Having said all that, Caesars has their own set of rules and had them in writing. I would definitely have been a hell of a lot more pissed at myself than at the dealer or manager for making such a stupid mistake. People handle embarrasement differently. Some put it behind them and move on. Others lash out at others because they have a huge ego and try to put the blame on others for their errors.