Brantford $2 - $5
Last night I played $2 -$5 in Brantford. I normally play $5 & $10 but I haven't played much poker lately and was feeling a little rusty.
It was the worst played poker I have ever seen. Every hand had 4-7 players seeing the flop. It was difficult to bluff and people were winning pots on the river all night long. I lost a number of hands on the river. One hand I had AJ suited...AJ and a 6 were flopped. There were three of us and one guy bet, a second player folded and I raised. He called my bet. The turn was a K, he bet, I raised again and he called. The river was a K...he bet, I called, he showed K3 offsuit. What a joke. I will never play $2 & $5 again. I went to Brantford to play poker...not bingo.
I finished down $5 after 4hrs. It felt like such a waste of time. I probably should have moved up to $5 & $10 but I wanted to beat this table so bad.
How do you beat a table which plays extremely loose? Do you play only premium hands (top ten) or should you see plenty of flops and play from there?
It was the worst played poker I have ever seen. Every hand had 4-7 players seeing the flop. It was difficult to bluff and people were winning pots on the river all night long. I lost a number of hands on the river. One hand I had AJ suited...AJ and a 6 were flopped. There were three of us and one guy bet, a second player folded and I raised. He called my bet. The turn was a K, he bet, I raised again and he called. The river was a K...he bet, I called, he showed K3 offsuit. What a joke. I will never play $2 & $5 again. I went to Brantford to play poker...not bingo.
I finished down $5 after 4hrs. It felt like such a waste of time. I probably should have moved up to $5 & $10 but I wanted to beat this table so bad.
How do you beat a table which plays extremely loose? Do you play only premium hands (top ten) or should you see plenty of flops and play from there?
Comments
My wife and I have beaten 2/5 for over $1000 the last three weeks over about 100 hours of play - right on 2 BB/hour. Add on the comps for the free food and minus for the stomach pump required 2 hours later.
I was up $70 after 1hr mainly because I caught 2 boats. After that I had plenty of good hole cards...not great but good enuff to see a flop...I caught nothing on the flop for the next 3 hrs...and my stack slowly dribbled down to nothing....I tried representing trips a few times (worked twice)...tried representing a flush twice by raising only to be called both times by someone holding pocket jacks...
Perhaps that's just poker...I thought that I was playing well...I know that u can't win every night but the play was so weak and I was so frustrated that I couldn't crush their tiny heads.
And no, if you're getting 7 players per flop you don't only play premium hands...these hands go down in value in multiway pots. You need to adjust to the type of table you are at. It doesn't sound like a bad game at all, I play in 6 12 games with a 6 way cap on 1/3 of the hands and I also play in 10 20 or 15 30 games with only 3 players per flop, you need to adjust.
With 7 players per flop I want 78s/89s/9Ts/JTs on the button or cut-off every time, that's where you make your money in these games. if it's a passive game preflop and it is likely that I'll have 6 players in behind me I'll risk the 2-4$ and play 87s UTG.
Lower-stakes poker involves a lot of variance because people will play just about everything. However, with this variance comes higher expected value because your opponents make a lot of mistakes. Provided you can take advantage of their mistakes through skilled play, the common bad play at lower limits is to your advantage.
If you are losing because of bad luck, then that should even itself out with time. No person is "luckier" than another person in the long run; it all evens out.
If you are unable to defeat the lower-stakes players over time, then it is highly doubtful you will beat the higher-stakes players. You make money at poker because other people make mistakes. If players are making less mistakes, then you will make less money. You want people calling your raises with Q 5; it's as simple as that. Sure, they may win sometimes, but you come out much more ahead against people calling you with Q 5 than with K K. It may make you upset that they will win sometimes, but that's poker.
While these players bitch, I lean over and ask 75o his playing schedule and write it down
Like the last post stated, if you can't beat the bad players, you aren't going to beat the good ones.
As for Brantford 2-5. You had a bad night. Go again and you'll win large if you play it right. You'll need to fold onthe river sometimes when you know you're beat from a chaser but odds are you'll win more often than the chasers will.
I have a new attitude to people who complain about these games..
I say that it's not the players that are playing badly, but its YOU thats playing badly. If you are the most observant player at the table, then you can understand who to manipulate, who to stay away from and who is completely clueless. You should be able to evaluate those players and figure out the best course of action. Don't bluff the wally but bluff the hell out of tighty mcFoldy..
What I think I see from players who complain is that they're lost touch with actually playing poker against various opponent profiles. They think that bluff check raise that works all the time at 5-10 or 100-200 or whatever will work against the clueless guy who will call down with any piece of the board.. Thats just bad poker at any level.
Sure, at micros a higher percentage of the players are of the cluess variety, but I dont think saying stuff like "Yeah just play top 10" or "yeah just play anything suited" are good blanket statements. You should know enough about Limit Holdem combined with the style of your opponents and THEN be able to figure out what your starting hand selection should be. If you want a crutch, pick up SSH from Miller, it's got an effective preflop hand chart for tight/loose games.
BLECH. I assume I don't need to explain why this is a terrible mindset to be in while sitting in.
There are PLENTY of Lee Jones YOUNG rocks to watch out for too.
But seriously have you seen that chinese girl play? Everytime the BB hits her, she gets up and leaves. Does she think she is saving money? Is she milking the comps? At $.49/hr why bother? She only plays AA so watch for her.
I went at 10 am Sun and walked into a table - 2 were running with seats open. Around 1 pm they usually open a 3rd so 12-12:30 is a good time to arrive. Around 4-5 pm they usually open the 4th table (2/5).
When all the tables are running it is usually around 4 2/5, 4 5/10, 3 10/20 and 2 20/40. They have a couple tables in the lounge area that they also open when really busy. Since the Ex opened they seem less busy than usual. The one 20/40 acts as a feeder table to the other and they will shut it down and put you back on a wait list if too many seats open up.
Moose, this is a great comment! Thanks.
I was honestly thinking along these lines myself...getting fed up playing $0.50/1.00 at Party getting AA cracked at every turn by some joker playing J3...losing with trips frequently, top two pair losing to a river, river flush,etc, etc, etc. So maybe I should move up to get away from this.....NOT!!!!! It would be a huge mistake for me, my bankroll cannot handle it, my game is far to immature at this point, and my state of mind could not handle the pressure of having to win should I find myself down a chink of change. So for me, it's back to the books, re-read, then apply to my game and try again.
Question tho....I thought it was a good practice to play the opposite style that is dominate at the table, so in this instance playing tight with premium hands would be the way to go....and that is what I try to do, tighten up and ram and jam the premium hands. At this time I do not have the confidence to play T9s-56s or even unsuited connectors lower then JT so I usually dump these hands unless I find myself in the blinds with 3-4 players in the pot already and even then likely fold to a raise. Is this a serious problem in my game? Also...most of my readings say to dump A-rag, KT, and QT...and I must admit I do fold A8-A2 almost every time, I do not play QT and KT is me nemesis (although I am starting to play it a bit more depending on position and such)...is this a mistake as well at these low limit tables?
Big E
Don't play aces weaker than A9. Just don't do it. However if you are the rock on the table then you won't make any money with your premium cards because the other players will learn to fold when you enter a pot. As you say the major leak cards are any two unsuited face cards (excluding Ax). I almost always will fold these to any raise.
Do you find yourself in a pot with a single bet only to be raised behind you and you think - here we go again - I have to call this bet? Then probably you are playing too weak cards too early.
If you are playing cards lower than 10 - they MUST be suited and they MUST be connected - one gap at most.
Aggression and position are probably the 2 most important things. But you have to know your opponents. Aggression won't work against passive players who never raise and never fold - they could be holding anything. Don't be afraid to mix it up with your opponents - get in there and raise pre-flop, if you were last to raise then bet/raise the flop. You have to know what your opponents are holding by the end of the flop betting because the bets are double on the turn and river. If you get callers don't be afraid to shut it down on the turn and river - giving up the odd winning hand is a lot better than wasting double bets on hand you can't win. Don't be calling turn bets just because you have 2 overcards.
If you are limping into a pot with your low suited connectors and you don't flop two pr or better or an open ended straight or flush draw - that's it - you are done with the hand. Check it down and fold to any bet. If you get a nut straight or nut flush draw (maybe also K high) I would raise any bet. The raise can quite often buy you a free card on the turn to make your str/flush on the river. A raise on the flop costs you just as much as calling a bet on the river. It also makes you the agressor and builds the pot in case you hit on the turn.
When someone switches from checking and calling to suddenly betting out, you know they hit their card. If you can't beat whatever hand that is - fold.
I wouldn't necessarily say play opposite the style of the table. If the table is tight - find another table. If you have a loose aggressive maniac you can certainly slow play him into oblivion if you get the nuts. But don't make the mistake of slow playing top pair when two flush cards or a straight draw falls on the board. Ram and jam if you have hit the flop - even trips. Also don't overplay flushes if the board pairs - the full house could be out there waiting for you. My rule of thumb is to just play slightly tighter than the table, however loose that may be. I don't change the cards I play but I will play them in slightly earlier position.
Hope that helps.
Actually, we did have a kid who sat down and didn't understand how to post. He sat to my left and got hammered.
Although I stated that I would never play $2 - $5 again that statement was more or less borne out of frustration. I am going to try and make it down there late Wednesday nite and I will probably play $2 - $5 as well.
I am surprised at how many of you responded to my original post. I think many of you had some very constructive comments. As BigE stated I think that moose's 2nd post was great advice to anyone considering moving up to the next level.
BBC...perhaps I did play poorly...if anything I probably saw too many flops. I never seemed to catch anything on the flop and would fold to any bets. I honestly felt that the only way I had a chance to win that night was to chase cards and that's a recipe for disaster.
I will see how things play out tommorow night. I am hoping a few of the same players are at my table again.
Read up on pot odds / bet odds and outs and you'll beat the heck out of the games.
As I said before you can only smile when players make critical mistakes that pay off for them with a miracle river card. However, feeding the fish only makes for bigger fish. :fish: Say that to yourself everytime you take a bad beat and you'll feel better.
However I do a slow burn everytime I catch myself making my own mistakes and wasting bets. Usually at that time I get up, take a walk, grab a coffee and come back with the resolve to be the shark.
Thanks for all the advice.
Dave
Your post seemed desperate. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted it. When players play loose they are making plays with negative expectation. Seek them out but don't imitate them - play just the best cards. Play around 20-24% of your starting hands. Fold hands like KT, AT, AJ, KQ when ppl raise in front of you *regardless* if they are loose (fold especially if they are tight) from late pos, play T9s, etc..and all pocket pairs. In time - "the long run" you'll smoke those fuckers.
that said - I'm down $35 last time i went to BrantfordÂ
Are you betting and raising flush draws on the flop (with more than 2 opponents)!? Are you raising from the back to get free cards? Free card plays work best against passive players. Brantford 2/5 is passive! *except the odd WPT wannabe that bets every street trying to steal pots* Are you playing tight in the front - loose in the back?
Its funny how bad beats done to us are unforgettable - like scars in our sides from deep wounds. But when we win - we somehow forget all the beats we've given others. Don't forget that you can't win every night or session you play. If you're flush draws didn't come in last hand - or the last 5 hands, don't sweat. Its always approx 4-1 to make your flush, or about 18% (if you consider the turn AND river, 2-1 or about 35%) Poker is a wonderful game that provides a lot of joy and frustration. It pushes you to limits you've never experienced. To have mastery over the game - you must first have mastery over yourself. If you can't handle swings or losing, gambling's gonna getcha. Patience is a prime attribute to have when playing all varieties of poker. Without patience, one cannot
one will not be a long term winner.
Felipe
Shit! where was I?!
Excellent point....on ocassion, this used to be me......I've come to realize the importance of position much more of late, thanks.
I'd play loose(looser) if I was playing against players that I know their tendencies (grammar?) I had some pretty cold cards. And 3 hours singletabling 4 hands isn't very rare. Online, I can go 4,5,6 orbits folding everyhand!
If you play too loose at a very loose (low limit) table, you'll get eaten alive (in the long run) Weaker offsuit hands are at an inherent disadvantage in a loose. A hand like QT, profitable if others are playing weak hands, shows a modest profit, but it loses money when the pot is raised (typically signifying a stronger hand (ie KQ, AQ) which dominate QT)
I'm a very aggressive player - but I'm not loose.
The key word is OFFSUIT. In big multiway pots hands like small pairs, suited connectors, big suited paint, and suited aces have great implied odds. You can play lots of these types of hands provided you know the pot is going to be multiway (which usually means you'll want to see the action unfold ahead of you) so you'll either be playing these in LP or the blinds. Of course this also assumes that you play these hands well post-flop.
The QTo is a good example of why you shouldn't be playing that hand in EP, and heaven forbid you shouldn't be cold-calling a raise with it. If you're going to cold-call, you better have a damn good reason to do so (eg. in LP with a bunch of people already in the pot with a good implied odds hand).
I have played there a handful of times and its as big a time waster as spinning in circles and picking your nose. Its nearly impossible to use any kind of strategy as you will always, ALWAYS get a caller.
My first time there I made the mistake of having pocket Aces and betting all the way down on a scrappy board only to get smoked by a 6-9 two pair.
Even at 5-10 some of that crap still happens if the cards are suited (understandable - not great- but fine I can deal with that)
Last week I was only playing premium hands and getting smoked so I was talking to the guy beside me and he says "If you can't beat them, Join them".
The very next hand I played 8-2 off suit and caught a pair of eights and just jammed the pot all the way down. The final caller showed a King high and I walked away with 20+ dollars.
A few hands later I get 7-3d in the big blind and I flop a flush and I bet it hard and I get called by a pocket pair of tens (NO DIAMONDS)
All in all I think the 2/5 brantford game is more luck than anything else. I am just waiting to roll with the big dogs and get in to some real action (Unfortunately my finances do not permit that kind of fun right now)
I thought playing these small games would help hone my skills, but they encouraged me to play loose and relax my standards for calling hands.
uhhh ... END RANT????
Actually cue START RANT:Â Nah, I can't be bothered, just reread the entire thread...twice.
I know a 12 word strategy that works well against such opponents.
ScottyZ
Is it: "Bet for value! Bet for value! Bet for value! Bet for value!"? (done in the Homeresque "Eat the pudding, eat the pudding, eat the pudding, eat the pudding!" voice.)