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so...are we gonna talk about this? errrrr...
The whole Gaza situation is pretty intense, and I think warrants discussion, but..
my views in particular seem to tilt people, and that's the last thing I want.
I was kind of hoping we could have an open and respectable conversation, to kind of clear up some things, or get a new perspective.
I wouldn't quite consider myself to be as educated as some of you in world issues, or views, so I was hoping maybe to read some and learn from all of this.
I'll chime in with my thoughts later, once the ball is rolling.
Ill have alot of questions I promise, and look forward to this discussion.
my views in particular seem to tilt people, and that's the last thing I want.
I was kind of hoping we could have an open and respectable conversation, to kind of clear up some things, or get a new perspective.
I wouldn't quite consider myself to be as educated as some of you in world issues, or views, so I was hoping maybe to read some and learn from all of this.
I'll chime in with my thoughts later, once the ball is rolling.
Ill have alot of questions I promise, and look forward to this discussion.
Comments
No rockets, no counter-attacks. Easy game.
Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? : Sam Harris
But of course, seeing as we cant go back in time and fix and give the jewish people a proper living space.... I guess the correct choice would be to create some real borders instead of this constant war?
I thought the reason the plo were pissed was because of illegal jewish settlements/land grabs that are happening like crazy over there. I watched this like 25 minute-ish piece that Vice produced on it recently.
So i think some sort of solidified boundaries or something would help, also a complete drop of the blockade of supplies for the gaza strip people.
In the end its kind of ironic how the jews are going about this battle, as it just drips of a familiar war that happened not too long ago. A massive strong force oppressing and killing the people that they fear/hate while moving in and taking land..... hmmmmm... history repeating itself.
I don't agree with this, Hamas doesn't have a fraction of what the Israeli army has, and that is only an excuse for Israel to attack and expand it's country. I think there were 64 killed Isrealis and 1800 from Palestine as well as 70% were civilians from Palestine.
The simplest START is for Isreali people to go get a state in Britain where Britain gave the right for a jewish state in another country which is ridiculous.
Why are so many civilians dying in Hamas-Israel war? - CNN.com
XXXXX > Insert Diety of choice here.
If you are trying to draw a parallel with WW2, you are WAY off-base.
As for the loss of lands, and property, why isn't Hamas launching rockets into Jordan? Or Kuwait? Both of these Arab nations have expelled Palestinian citizens and/or refugees from their countries. Why is it only Israel that gets excoriated for the treatment of Palestinians?
Genesis 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him;
Genesis 17:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee;
Zechariah 12: 2,3 King James Version (KJV)
"Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."
Mount Zion
There is only one place in the world that God has declared as holy, and that's Mount Zion and the land of Israel. The prophet Isaiah wrote this - "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously." Isaiah 24:23.
There is only one people that are God's "chosen people", and they are the Jews.
"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Isaiah 51:16.
And there is one main event in bible prophecy that had to happen to usher in the time that the bible calls the "Last Days", or the "time of Jacob's trouble", and that event happened on May 14, 1948.
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Matthew 24:32-34
The Apostles came to Jesus and asked Him about the end of the world, and how would people living then know it was happening. It went like this:
"And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, |”Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." Matthew 24: 2-6
So Jesus begins to tell them about how things will gradually heat up and increase until we reach the time that we call the Last Days. The Book of Matthew continues, giving more and more details and time clues until we reach the "big clue", the biggest one of them all. Stating in Matthew 24:32, Jesus says this:
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
So He tells them that the generation of people that will be alive on the earth when the Last Days come about, would witness what He called the "fig tree" blooming, and putting forth it's leaves. And He equated that with the fulfillment of His End Time prophecy. So what or who is the "fig tree"? It would seem that if we could figure that out, then we would know who the last generation might be.
Throughout recorded history, nations have always be typified by "types and figures" to describe them. Russia is the "bear", America is the "eagle", England the "lion", and Israel the "fig tree". (There is so much more here)
So Jesus was saying that when you see ISRAEL re-blooming, whenever that would take place, that that generation would be the one that would be on the earth and living when the Last Days would occur. So if Israel was destroyed in 70 AD, and it was, when did it "bloom" again? May 14, 1948 is the date that history records that fact occurring? The generation that witnessed that, the WWII generation, still have not, for all intents and purposes, passed off the scene. They are still alive and with us today, and we are the people that Jesus said would be alive on the earth when the Last Days would happen. That time is right now!
The time of the "last days" that Jesus referred to, is not "in the future" and it's not "coming soon". It is here right now. (I believe) For the past 6 decades, all the major players have been taking the stage and playing the parts that God said they would.
Consider the following events which have already taken place: (u can google these events)
• Russia and China, two major End Times players, have already signed a pact. (Ezekiel 38 and 39)
• Russia, (one of the biggest) End Times player, has already helped Iran build a nuclear reactor.
• Iran has repeated over and over their desire to wipe Israel off the map.
• Iran now has nuclear weapons capable of reaching Israel.
An Unbelievable Prophecy
On the face of it, it's a crazy prophecy. Thousands of years ago, the prophet Zechariah said that in the End Times, Israel, tiny little Israel, would be front and center on the world stage. And that all the nations of the world would scheme for and fight over her. Why has Israel captured world atttention? A people of 12-15 million?
Does Israel have any great natural resources for someone to want to steal? No, they don't. Do they have a great seaport that someone would like to take over? No, they don't. Are they strategically located to anywhere of great value? No, they are not. So, why on earth would Zechariah make the bold statement that tiny little, nothing Israel would be the one spot on earth that would command the world's attention in the Last Days? Simple - because God said that's the way that it was going to be.
Add to this dilemma the fact that Israel was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans, and all the Jews run out of it. So for the last 1,900 years there wasn't even an Israel existing to make Zechariah's prophecy come true. Certainly, it looked like God was wrong, and that the Bible wasn't true.
Adolph Hitler, during World War II, decreed that the Jews should be wiped out, and set out to do just that in the Holocaust, effectively murdering over 6 million Jews, as well as 5 million non-Jews. By the time the war ends in 1945, it looked like not only would there never be a rebirth of Israel, but it also appeared that the very existence of Jews anywhere in the world hung in the balance.
And yet, within 3 short years of the end of WWII, right in the very spot where the Romans had set the city on fire 1,878 years earlier, Israel was miraculously reborn on May 14, 1948.
From that day to this very day, Israel has captured the attention of the whole world, and indeed is the major focal point in any discussion of world politics. Everyone who watches drama play out between the Jews and the Arabs nervously watch and wait for what they all fear will happen - World War III.
What is Israel today?
It is a "cup of trembling" for the whole world to see. And how accurate was God's prophecy that He gave to Zechariah? 100%. And in what time of history did God say that this prophecy would come true? In the Last Days...which is exactly where we find ourselves right now I believe. If God is to be believed, according to His Word, we are indeed in the Last Days.
So, yes, WWIII (Armageddon - Ezekiel 38 and 39; Revelation 16:16) is on its way, and will be fought very soon. Would you like to know how it all turns out for all the nations that will attack Israel? This is exactly how it will turn out:
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. "
Zechariah 12:9
Or you can simply dismiss what the Bible says.
I no longer like it.
Works for me.
The region is historically home to both Jew and Arab, so BOTH sides have claim.
Israel, by spoils of war, has defended it's claim to hold the territory it has at present.
Israel is willing to trade "land for peace" . . . all it needs is a willing partner.
Hamas is NEVER going to agree to peaceful coexistence with Israel.
Brent? Where do you find that Iran has a nuclear weapon? All indications are that they are at least a decade away from being able to produce a launch capable device that would reach Israel. Plenty of time for more moderate influences in that country (ie cooler heads) to take over.
Good? Bad? Who the fuck cares?
All of the above.
They're Tshirts.
Prob 6 dollas.
Consider the following (fictional) situation:
Winston loves his country. It hurts him deeply to see its people oppressed by the Nazi occupiers. However, after Germany defeated the British army and America decided to stay out of the war, it was only a matter of time until Britain became part of the Third Reich. Winston, like many others, had come to the conclusion that there was no way to defeat the Nazis. However, it may be possible that being a constant source of irritation and forcing them to divert resources, hopefully Hitler may realize that occupying Britain was more trouble than it was worth and would withdraw. Winston wasn't sure the plan would work but it was their last resort. The problem would be striking the regime in ways that would cause serious problems for them. Reluctantly, the resistance fighters agreed that the only effective and reliable way would be to turn themselves into human bombs. Their sacrifices could cause the most disruption and terror. They were all willing to die for Britain as long as their deaths would make a difference.
A lot of people are repulsed by any suggestion that suicide bombing might be morally acceptable in any circumstances. The trouble seems to be that people refuse to accept that we might have anything in common with people who act in terrible ways like this. This is mostly just a form of denial though.
Palestinians are not another race. They are human beings. If some of them (not all of them are suicide bombers obviously) see suicide missions as a last resort, then surely so would people like us in the developed world if put in the same situation. You can only deny this by suggesting that there is something inherently violent or evil about the Palestinians, which is obviously a racist perspective.
The fictional situation above works to portray why people turn to such extremes, not to justify such actions. Consider many RAF pilots who were praised for their bravery for taking crazy risks with their lives - sometimes their missions were not that far from being suicidal. Furthermore, the bombs they dropped were designed to induce terror and weaken the enemy even though it meant targeting civilians as well.
I’m not suggesting that suicide bombings are acceptable, nor am I saying that air raids during WWII are an exact moral equivalent. We have to confront the rights and wrongs of war and terror. If we are to condemn one action while accepting the other, we have to try to understand the reasons behind it and why those reasons justify (or not justify) the action.
Israel has been the side that continually has strived for a peaceful coexistence with it's neighbours. They have given land for peace in the past, they have removed settlements in the past, ALL in an effort to secure a lasting peace with their Arab neighbours. It has all been for naught. the loan exceptions being Egypt and Jordan. Is it any wonder the prevailing attitude is one of skepticism and hostility?
There is nothing evil about the palestinians....but all of the suicide bombers led by faith to kill civilians are eviléviolent. Misled yes....but murderers are murderers. Having said that a large majority of Palestinians(and many other Arab nations) would welcome the violent end of Isreal.
Couldn't disagree more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_committed_by_Israel
List of Irgun attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Qibya massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ariel Sharon: Debunking the Media Myths | HonestReporting
Striving for peace does not mean that a nation should not protect itself. And, to pre-empt the obvious, the Irgun was NOT part of the Israeli government, because there WAS no Israeli government. With the establishment of the Jewish State, the Irgun disappeared. Would that Hamas had done the same with the establishment of the PA.
As stated, war is a messy business. And nothing you posted refutes the notion that Israel has repeatedly offered territory in return for a legitimate peace accord. Egypt and Jordan are, to date, the ONLY Arab nations/groups to take Israel up on such an offer and actually stand by their word. When was the last time the Israelis bombed either of these two nations? Exactly.
Shelling a UN refugee camp is striving for peaceful coexistence? You say war is messy but that is just being an apologist for terrorists. Fact is Israeli makes no distinction between enemy combatants and civilians. Neither does age make a difference, as they consider young children to be potential threats just the same as adults. To me that isn't "striving for peaceful coexistence." Just call it like it is; both sides are guilty of terrorism.
Yes, after Israel became a country Irgun disappeared. That's because their leaders became the leaders of Israel proper.
Mod Please rename this.
Try having your own thoughts one time, it's invigorating
You can cite all the links you wish, and I can do the same with counters, but the facts are this . . . for every "atrocity" you wish to lay at the feet of the Jewish State, there are many many more that can be laid in front of her neighbours and enemies.
If it is simply a case of looking at the "balance sheet", Israel wins.
If it is a case of which society is more inclusive, Israel wins
If it is a case of which society is more respectful of Human Rights, Israel wins.
If it is a case of which society is more desirous of peace, Israel wins . . .
but actually they lose, because they do not have a partner in the process.
You're funny. So, Zionist terrorists can bomb hotels, target innocent civilians (in this case British) until they get their own country and it's all good, according to you. But when the Arabs do it, they're the ones who are in the wrong. Clearly you are biased.
And Israel is "all inclusive", "human rights?" You need a wake up call,
buddy.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/israel-negev-bedouins-day-of-rage
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/US-Israels-discrimination-against-Arab-travelers-keeps-it-out-of-visa-waiver-deal-346481
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/06/23/jewish_women_battle_discrimination_in_israel_siddiqui.html
http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html
Can the mods please make sure to backup this thread in multiple servers?
The lead psychologist is going to want it for the case files.
Mark