Help in Mtt strategy

sn1perb0y

As everyone says, to win a tournament you need to win flips.

That being said, when hero 3-bet or 4-bet all in with lets say AK. There is a percentage that the villan would fold, call and go into a flip, dominating some hands such as AQ, AJ or being dominated by AA, KK.

Very deep in a tournament with 12-35 left, how often would a hero risk his tournament life on a flip?

I was thinking of sometimes calling a raise or 3-bet with AK and seeing a flop if an A or K does not hit a flop id fold. But you hit an A or K 1/3 times and someone can suck out with JTs that he might fold pre, yet you wont risk your tournament.

Ill put a hand example over here.

PokerStars Hand #105994277260: Tournament #805110018, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXI (7000/14000) - 2013/10/24 21:44:21 ET
Table '805110018 55' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: PANTS01 (117041 in chips)
Seat 2: Fizhh (137769 in chips)
Seat 4: REDLIGHT420 (549500 in chips)
Seat 5: Paspartou (387324 in chips)
Seat 6: sn1perb0y (320181 in chips)
Seat 7: chk51 (379693 in chips)
Seat 8: gsr1703 (1033418 in chips)
Seat 9: KAPUERA (789904 in chips)
PANTS01: posts the ante 1750
Fizhh: posts the ante 1750
REDLIGHT420: posts the ante 1750
Paspartou: posts the ante 1750
sn1perb0y: posts the ante 1750
chk51: posts the ante 1750
gsr1703: posts the ante 1750
KAPUERA: posts the ante 1750
Fizhh: posts small blind 7000
REDLIGHT420: posts big blind 14000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sn1perb0y [Kh Ac]
Paspartou: folds
sn1perb0y: raises 14000 to 28000
chk51: folds
gsr1703: raises 42668 to 70668
KAPUERA: folds
PANTS01: folds
Fizhh: folds
REDLIGHT420 has timed out
REDLIGHT420: folds
REDLIGHT420 is sitting out
REDLIGHT420 has returned
sn1perb0y: raises 247763 to 318431 and is all-in
gsr1703: calls 247763
*** FLOP *** [8h 6s 2s]
*** TURN *** [8h 6s 2s] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [8h 6s 2s 7c] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sn1perb0y: shows [Kh Ac] (a pair of Eights)
gsr1703: shows [Jh Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
gsr1703 collected 671862 from pot
sn1perb0y finished the tournament in 16th place and received $82.21.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 671862 | Rake 0
Board [8h 6s 2s 7c 8s]
Seat 1: PANTS01 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Fizhh (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: REDLIGHT420 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Paspartou folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: sn1perb0y showed [Kh Ac] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 7: chk51 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: gsr1703 showed [Jh Jc] and won (671862) with two pair, Jacks and Eights
Seat 9: KAPUERA folded before Flop (didn't bet)

When is it right to just call, when is it right to go all in. Does it only depend on stack size? Is it profitable to just call in any case?

DataMn

In your example I think you are going all-in every time.

The prizes are always weighted to the top 3, and in your position you need to build a stack to try to get to one of those positions. You have an M under 10, and this is probably your best opportunity to grow your stack.

I think just calling in this situation, and then pushing on any A or K (Stop-and-go) will make you look to weak when an A or a K do not come - and making you a mark for later situations.

Al

sn1perb0y

Thank you for your advice Dataman, I understand what you are saying. I know every situation is different, but my question is: what is the value of being alive in a tournament ( by just calling AK, fold if no A or K comes) rather than taking a flip that can let you bust 50% of the time. I don't know if my way of thinking is right about tournament life vs flip.

djgolfcan

Each situation is unique, which is why most answers start with "it depends". In your example, there are only 16 players left and the payout differences don't start to be significant until the final table.
Because you have AK, ot os unlikely that the re-raiser has AA or KK, so now you either have him dominated or are in a coin flip situation. Winning this hand will put you in a great chip position for the final table and for a top 3 finish.
Tournaments are not just about surviving, they are also about accumulating chips. AK is a great hand to do that with and I would almost always take the flip, at any point in a tournament.

UBetIFold

Your not exactly correct.

What you are correct about is every situation is different and there are a lot of variables that come into play.

Now, one particular fault about just flatting a raise with AK, let's say the flop is 238, and you check fold the flop, the problem is, is that your opponent does 'not' always have a 'flipping' hand (22-QQ), where you actually would be flipping.

There are a lot of other hands in their ranges that you are wayy ahead of Ax-AQ, broadway hands, etc, which generally they will cbet that flop and you will fold.

Now let's go back to pre flop, let's say you end up jamming pre, yes, a lot of the time you will be flipping, the benefit of going all in is (assuming your called) is that you get to see 5 cards as opposed to seeing 3, missing, then folding.

Also, depending on villains, positions, stack sizes, game play, dynamics etc etc, you will also be called by hands that are a premium hand but are dominated to yours A10-AQ,

Because of all of this, this is generally why AK is played so aggressively because there are several ways to win, (getting opponent to raise/fold, win a flip, win while having a dominant hand)

mags

Every situation is different and knowing the ranges of who you are up against and the position of other players in the game.
When getting all your chips in you are doing that to achieve either a fold, narrowing the field or you believe that you have the best hand.

Last night down to 8 the utg raises, mid position re raises all in, I am in late position with AK. I folded. Mid position had me covered and I did not want to flip and go, I had enough chips to live to fight another battle. I did not see what he shoved with but say i called and had the best hand great I double up. Say I call and he wins I am out 8th with just over a hundo in prize money. I begrudgingly folded and went on to win. Now had I been card dead for the next hour I would have been asking myself if I had missed an opportunity. also If the guy in mid position had just called or folded than I am going to shove on the utg guys raise with my AK, he has lots of fold equity plus his style was raise then fold to any aggression, if he does call chances are that I do or can make the best hand.

mags

I will also add that I got into a flip situation 4 times with a very tight good player. I lost all 4 flips when 3 of the flips I had him dominated.

Wetts1012

Never fold here.




Ever.

Wetts1012

sn1perb0y wrote: »

Thank you for your advice Dataman, I understand what you are saying. I know every situation is different, but my question is: what is the value of being alive in a tournament ( by just calling AK, fold if no A or K comes) rather than taking a flip that can let you bust 50% of the time. I don't know if my way of thinking is right about tournament life vs flip.

The value is not in your tournament life, the value is in exploiting your edges in a game when edges dont come around very often.

You need to take every edge, even the slightest if it is the best decision from an EV standpoint. In the hand posted theres no way you can narrow villains range specifically to QQ+.

westside8

Only situation you can consider folding with this hand would be a satellite where the top X # of payouts is the same and tournament life is valued much higher.

T8urmoney

mags wrote: »

Every situation is different and knowing the ranges of who you are up against and the position of other players in the game.
When getting all your chips in you are doing that to achieve either a fold, narrowing the field or you believe that you have the best hand.

Last night down to 8 the utg raises, mid position re raises all in, I am in late position with AK. I folded. Mid position had me covered and I did not want to flip and go, I had enough chips to live to fight another battle. I did not see what he shoved with but say i called and had the best hand great I double up. Say I call and he wins I am out 8th with just over a hundo in prize money. I begrudgingly folded and went on to win. Now had I been card dead for the next hour I would have been asking myself if I had missed an opportunity. also If the guy in mid position had just called or folded than I am going to shove on the utg guys raise with my AK, he has lots of fold equity plus his style was raise then fold to any aggression, if he does call chances are that I do or can make the best hand.

Bad fold

mags

I wondered if it was a bad fold.

Is it always a bad fold?

Even if the all in guy was ultra tight?? He nearly blinded out showing no aggression.

Thanks

Wetts1012

mags wrote: »

I wondered if it was a bad fold.

Is it always a bad fold?

Even if the all in guy was ultra tight?? He nearly blinded out showing no aggression.

Thanks

Its probably a bad fold.

You didnt really describe stack sizes but I assume this is a poorly structured MTT and you had 6-20BB - In which case its always bad.

sn1perb0y

villian is a decent player, played with him sometime before stats :
16/13 vpip/pfr 178hands 75% WTSD%
PokerStars Hand #106081615062: Tournament #805110057, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (125/250) - 2013/10/26 18:44:22 ET
Table '805110057 62' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: omega112 (16590 in chips)
Seat 2: supreamdream (15620 in chips)
Seat 3: sn1perb0y (12526 in chips)
Seat 4: m0nster1989_ (14010 in chips)
Seat 5: davem44 (16588 in chips)
Seat 6: OneDay$oon (16523 in chips)
Seat 7: Andr_Pro14 (20667 in chips)
Seat 8: Ernst_H_83 (12994 in chips)
Seat 9: Vezunchikc (1807 in chips)
omega112: posts the ante 30
supreamdream: posts the ante 30
sn1perb0y: posts the ante 30
m0nster1989_: posts the ante 30
davem44: posts the ante 30
OneDay$oon: posts the ante 30
Andr_Pro14: posts the ante 30
Ernst_H_83: posts the ante 30
Vezunchikc: posts the ante 30
omega112: posts small blind 125
supreamdream: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sn1perb0y [Ah Kc]
sn1perb0y: raises 250 to 500
m0nster1989_: folds
davem44: folds
OneDay$oon: folds
Andr_Pro14: folds
Ernst_H_83: folds
Vezunchikc: folds
omega112: folds
supreamdream: calls 250
*** FLOP *** [Ad 4h 7s]
supreamdream: checks
sn1perb0y: checks
*** TURN *** [Ad 4h 7s] [5h]
supreamdream: bets 750
sn1perb0y: calls 750
*** RIVER *** [Ad 4h 7s 5h] [5d]
supreamdream: bets 14340 and is all-in
sn1perb0y:???

Edit: i checked flop because it was safe and could trap him later and he might spew some chips. I think my mistake was i didnt reraise turn

Wetts1012

If you range it up and say what is nuts what is bluff, I assume the risk/reward on this hand should tell you everything you need to know.

Theres not many bluffs hes trying to rep there.

Depending on ur cbet% you should def bet that flop.

sn1perb0y

My cbet% is close to 75%

Wetts1012

sn1perb0y wrote: »

My cbet% is close to 75%

Then you should def. bet that flop.

sn1perb0y

I would c bet that flop 95% of the time, but since he is a good player i wanted to play it different.

Wetts1012

sn1perb0y wrote: »

I would c bet that flop 95% of the time, but since he is a good player i wanted to play it different.

A good player is paying attention to the fact that you cbet all hands. Even more reason to bet flop.

mags

I ask because I cant remember the last time if ever folding AK pre flop. If I had only 10bb's left than I am most def shoving them in with AK.

I wish I had recorded the hand history as it was one of the hands that I really had to think about.

There were 8 players left - 2 of them with less than 10bbs.

The first utg raiser had about 500k the re raiser all in had 650k, I was next to act in middle position with 600k(sitting 4th of the 8). I believe the blind level was 1250/2500 15min levels.

My thinking at the time was that my desire to outlive the 2 that were going to start shoving with anything was better than calling and possibly losing. The guy that shoved was not shoving often and always showed a pair when he did. If I was shoving first then I would be ok with it but I did not like calling an all in. My guess is that I was in a race with a pair and felt that by avoiding the coin flip I could move up the cash at the very least 2 possibly 3 places.

FYI the very next hand I was dealt was KK.

In this situation folding worked for me but was it the correct decision?

T8urmoney

mags wrote: »

There were 8 players left - 2 of them with less than 10bbs.

The first utg raiser had about 500k the re raiser all in had 650k, I was next to act in middle position with 600k(sitting 4th of the 8). I believe the blind level was 1250/2500 15min levels.

My thinking at the time was that my desire to outlive the 2 that were going to start shoving with anything was better than calling and possibly losing. The guy that shoved was not shoving often and always showed a pair when he did. If I was shoving first then I would be ok with it but I did not like calling an all in. My guess is that I was in a race with a pair and felt that by avoiding the coin flip I could move up the cash at the very least 2 possibly 3 places.

FYI the very next hand I was dealt was KK.

In this situation folding worked for me but was it the correct decision?

No offence, but there is zero chance that the blinds are as stated (u have 240 BB's?), ur in the money, and they are 15 min levels....some of these statements are just incorrect.

I'm gonna guess that blinds were actually 25000/50000, which would mean you can never fold AK correctly here.

And when you say next hand you were rewarded with KK and went on to win the tourney, you're being results orientated.

Wetts1012

mags wrote: »

I ask because I cant remember the last time if ever folding AK pre flop. If I had only 10bb's left than I am most def shoving them in with AK.

I wish I had recorded the hand history as it was one of the hands that I really had to think about.

There were 8 players left - 2 of them with less than 10bbs.

The first utg raiser had about 500k the re raiser all in had 650k, I was next to act in middle position with 600k(sitting 4th of the 8). I believe the blind level was 1250/2500 15min levels.

My thinking at the time was that my desire to outlive the 2 that were going to start shoving with anything was better than calling and possibly losing. The guy that shoved was not shoving often and always showed a pair when he did. If I was shoving first then I would be ok with it but I did not like calling an all in. My guess is that I was in a race with a pair and felt that by avoiding the coin flip I could move up the cash at the very least 2 possibly 3 places.

FYI the very next hand I was dealt was KK.

In this situation folding worked for me but was it the correct decision?

Not sure about your facts here....

mags

I know I need to start saving hands that I get stuck on.
Appreciate the help.
T8 is correct I should have called and taken my chances. I was fortunate to have some good hands after I folded this great hand.
I realize that I was not playing to win at that moment I was playing to move up 2-3 pay spots as my account was low.

BlondeFish

sn1perb0y wrote: »

When is it right to just call, when is it right to go all in. Does it only depend on stack size? Is it profitable to just call in any case?

I remember Dan Harrington wrote about three A-K examples where the correct play was fold, flat and re-raise all-in, respectively. The main difference was the stack sizes.

In your first case, 3-betting all-in was correct. In the second case, c-betting would have been better. Did you fold and did villain show his hand?

westside8 wrote: »

Only situation you can consider folding with this hand would be a satellite where the top X # of payouts is the same and tournament life is valued much higher.

I was faced with a similar situation during the Blue Water Classic. UTG limped 3K, lady raised to 11K instead of all-in/fold, and I had AK in the SB. In a normal tournament, I would 3-bet all-in. But the bubble/ICM factor was huge; I was a medium stack, and I could probably fold to the finals by waiting for four of the short stacks to be eliminated. I would then be guaranteed cash of over $1,000 and the blinds would restart at the 300/600+50 level such that I would go back to the Green Zone. With the ranges I put the first two players on, the big blind behind me and the relative stack sizes, I thought that jamming would be -$EV, but I wasn't sure if my flat was +$EV compared to folding.

actyper

That's why I hate icm it would have to be a one drop bubble for me not to put in a raise there, or the tightest range for that lady

sn1perb0y

Is this a good fold?

56 seats GTD to 215$ sunday million
76 people left average stack is 24.5k

PokerStars Hand #106414110988: Tournament #807582450, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (800/1600) - 2013/11/02 17:06:55 ET
Table '807582450 95' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: rumataA (40689 in chips)
Seat 2: galka2412 (8690 in chips)
Seat 3: jobies (15543 in chips)
Seat 4: jpstef06 (22200 in chips)
Seat 5: axouna22 (37515 in chips)
Seat 6: abuz80 (11677 in chips)
Seat 8: Prosessimies (11676 in chips)
Seat 9: sn1perb0y (37763 in chips)
rumataA: posts the ante 150
galka2412: posts the ante 150
jobies: posts the ante 150
jpstef06: posts the ante 150
axouna22: posts the ante 150
abuz80: posts the ante 150
Prosessimies: posts the ante 150
sn1perb0y: posts the ante 150
jpstef06: posts small blind 800
axouna22: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sn1perb0y [As Kd]
abuz80: folds
Prosessimies: raises 9926 to 11526 and is all-in
sn1perb0y: folds
rumataA: folds
galka2412: folds
jobies: folds
jpstef06: folds
axouna22: folds
Uncalled bet (9926) returned to Prosessimies
Prosessimies collected 5200 from pot
Prosessimies: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5200 | Rake 0
Seat 1: rumataA folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: galka2412 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jobies (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jpstef06 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: axouna22 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: abuz80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Prosessimies collected (5200)
Seat 9: sn1perb0y folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Wetts1012

If you're folding here I assume you dont plan to play any more hands and fold to the seat?

Prob not a good fold, if you call and lose you still have avg. stack.

sn1perb0y

Yes that was my plan, since i thought i can be alive for a much longer time than needed for the tourny to end. I didn't play a hand after that yet it was folded all the way to me in bb once and got antes and sb. The tourny ended with me having 21k chip stack left. I guess it was a success. Any other thoughts?

Edit:

How i thought of it was keeping 23bbs was worth much more than getting to 35bb chip stack and i didnt want to risk it back to a 16bb chip stack which then i definitely need to double up

sn1perb0y

This is an old hand and i was having a debate with a friend weather to check or raise the turn in this spot. I'll post result later on..


PokerStars Hand #104551462748: Tournament #791396624, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (100/200) - 2013/09/23 23:18:28 ET
Table '791396624 22' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: El Mooklar (6730 in chips)
Seat 2: sn1perb0y (12095 in chips)
Seat 3: Mordari (10374 in chips)
Seat 4: pataponque (8910 in chips)
Seat 5: cuisto04 (6462 in chips)
Seat 6: Howlander12 (12733 in chips)
Seat 7: mebe06 (3616 in chips)
Seat 8: Alexandre074 (14566 in chips)
Seat 9: DEESGOTCHA (9299 in chips)
El Mooklar: posts the ante 25
sn1perb0y: posts the ante 25
Mordari: posts the ante 25
pataponque: posts the ante 25
cuisto04: posts the ante 25
Howlander12: posts the ante 25
mebe06: posts the ante 25
Alexandre074: posts the ante 25
DEESGOTCHA: posts the ante 25
pataponque: posts small blind 100
cuisto04: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sn1perb0y [Qc Qh]
Howlander12: calls 200
mebe06: calls 200
Alexandre074: folds
DEESGOTCHA: folds
El Mooklar: folds
sn1perb0y: raises 450 to 650
Mordari: folds
pataponque: calls 550
cuisto04: folds
Howlander12: calls 450
mebe06: calls 450
*** FLOP *** [4s Jc Th]
pataponque: checks
Howlander12: bets 2050
mebe06: folds
sn1perb0y: calls 2050
pataponque: folds
*** TURN *** [4s Jc Th] [As]
Howlander12: checks
sn1perb0y: ???

djgolfcan

^^^^
forget the turn, why didn't you raise the flop bet ? Its not exactly a dry board.

DrTyore

djgolfcan wrote: »

^^^^
forget the turn, why didn't you raise the flop bet ? Its not exactly a dry board.

Agreed.. greed here

2k flop bet? 10x the BB? Pound it. Also, you didn't raise enough pre.

Mark