1/2 is not beatable in the long run?
Having played at Woodbine with two other forumers and each of us playing different stakes, it got me thinking if 1/2 is very difficult to beat in the long run because of the 10% rake. I used to think that a max rake of $5 is beatable, but somebody argued that 1/2 at Woodbine or anywhere else is unbeatable if the rake is 10%.
I now agree with him as a it seems a lot of 1/2 players at Woodbine don't have much more than the minimum $60 cash. From what I have seen so far, there are a lot more who buy-in for $60-$100 those who buy in for 100 BB $200 to the $300 maximum. Some buy-in only for $60, lose a pot, then nurse their micro stack until they are eventually forced to go all-in with no fold equity. When they bust out, they either go home or go to the ATM and when they eventually go back to the empty seat, they buy back in for only $60. :rolleyes:
There are way too many pots <= $50 that are being raked for the full 10%. The average stack in many of the 1/2 tables is below $300, especially if you exclude the one huge stack who has everybody else covered and won't stay much longer. With roughly $200 in rake disappearing from the electronic table every hour, most tables have too many short stacks to be beatable.
Has anybody here played 1/2 live with a statistically significant sample size over the years and come out ahead of the 10% rake? I remember learning to play cash games through a NO-RAKE 1/2 game, and I won in that. I then skipped to 2/5 at Fallsview because that was the lowest stake available when I was grinding the WPT tournaments.
From the many games that I have dealt (or watched while playing a tournament), I know that 1/2+ games in underground clubs along with 2/5 Limit at the CNE (with $7.50 max rake) are virtually unbeatable in the long run. I never fell into the trap of slowly being raked to death at Casino Niagara/Seneca/Rama 1/2, especially with all Niagara Falls casinos having the terrible BBJ extra rake.
I now agree with him as a it seems a lot of 1/2 players at Woodbine don't have much more than the minimum $60 cash. From what I have seen so far, there are a lot more who buy-in for $60-$100 those who buy in for 100 BB $200 to the $300 maximum. Some buy-in only for $60, lose a pot, then nurse their micro stack until they are eventually forced to go all-in with no fold equity. When they bust out, they either go home or go to the ATM and when they eventually go back to the empty seat, they buy back in for only $60. :rolleyes:
There are way too many pots <= $50 that are being raked for the full 10%. The average stack in many of the 1/2 tables is below $300, especially if you exclude the one huge stack who has everybody else covered and won't stay much longer. With roughly $200 in rake disappearing from the electronic table every hour, most tables have too many short stacks to be beatable.
Has anybody here played 1/2 live with a statistically significant sample size over the years and come out ahead of the 10% rake? I remember learning to play cash games through a NO-RAKE 1/2 game, and I won in that. I then skipped to 2/5 at Fallsview because that was the lowest stake available when I was grinding the WPT tournaments.
From the many games that I have dealt (or watched while playing a tournament), I know that 1/2+ games in underground clubs along with 2/5 Limit at the CNE (with $7.50 max rake) are virtually unbeatable in the long run. I never fell into the trap of slowly being raked to death at Casino Niagara/Seneca/Rama 1/2, especially with all Niagara Falls casinos having the terrible BBJ extra rake.
Comments
I beat 1/2 300max for years in Alberta, but those were the softest games I ever saw in my life (Calgary and Edmonton). I think max rake was $5, but can't recall...T8 would know. Lots of table selection involved. It is probably much harder to table select on electronic tables.
I would never even sit in a 1/2 game that is 10% rake no cap...10% 5 max is very beatable IMO...of course, it depends on much more than just the rake structure as to whether a game is beatable. The easiest way to tell if a game is beatable is average preflop raise sizing relative to blinds and stack sizes IMO.
Btw, will likely be at Woodbine quite a bit this summer. My goal is to grind 2/5 and 5/5 for $2k a week. Very tough, I know, but have to have a plan in place.
I really don't think this is possible, even if you can get a table running 40 hours that's 10BB per hour... Especially since I noticed (from small sample size) that even 5/5 people are buying in short, certainly not max..
And shouldn't you not set monetary goals, only determining to play each hand optimally regardless of result? $2K per week is 100K per year, has anyone ever been able to do that at 5/5 or below? Just wondering...
Plan to start around noon and play each day until I make a $500 profit. Then call it a day. Will cap each session at 5-6 hours if down or under the daily profit. Cap the number of buyins as well. May play longer if really good table. Will see how the first week goes. #updatestofollow
I don't understand. Didn't you quit playing live cash a year or two ago because you weren't winning? Are these games so much softer that you can go from that to crushing them? It sounds like you are talking about making $100/h which is just a silly number.
Welcome back btw, have never quit live cash poker. Play once or twice per week usually. So far at around $22/ hour for 2013 playing mainly 1/2 ($400 max) and 2/5 (total hours 230) Half way to 2013 goal of making $10k playing live cash games. Have some extra vacation time this summer so may spend a week grinding at WB. If I don't get bored after a couple days of grinding. $100/hr is very difficult but achievable based on the level of play I have seen at WB so far. I agree doing it consistently all year would be virtually impossible.
GL then. Highly doubt $100/h is possible long term at 2/5 even if it is 1k max and plays deep.
Don't waste your whole summer indoors playing poker.
Aren't you coming to California sometime this month?
Starting to feel like old times again GTA
I agree, won't waste all my time playing poker. By next week, the plan could be all up in the air. Kind of like your plan to stay away from the forum for a year.
This is a horrible plan. I hope you understand this. Your losing sessions will destroy you using this model.
Um...he has a plan
I'd keep playing if the table is good and move tables if it's bad.
I wouldn't have a $$$ goal per day.
If you want to meet up and compare notes I'm at woodbine a lot!
Big plans and then done before you get started.
Maybe we should call you AA from now on.
^-^
It's too bad that 13CARDS no longer contributes his poker-related posts in what is supposed to be a poker forum. Hopefully, he will be involved in the upcoming Fallsview Poker Classic.
As for Woodbine 5/5, you and I should talk...
Only getting started buddy...all I can do is get my money in ahead and push and pray.
...and now you know
- The minimum buy-in in 3 of the rooms is only $50, and most players have been buying in for the minimum to $100. The lower the average stack in a game, the harder it is to beat the 10% rake.
- The maximum buy-in in 3 of the rooms is $200, & very few players have been buying in for $200/max.
- There seems to be more "hit-and-runs" with the electronic tables, especially when a young player gets lucky. With a live dealer & chips, a big winner has to get up and find chip racks, rack up all his chips, then courteously says goodbye to the table. When a 1/2 non-reg gets lucky and has a huge stack at the electronic table, he suddenly stops talking to everybody he has been been friendly with, then quietly signs out with his card in two seconds and quickly flees from the room without saying a word to anybody! :biggrin: It takes awhile for some players to notice that most of the money has disappeared from the table. The biggest stack leaving is usually replaced by somebody buying in short.
- The average bad player in 2013 is not as horrible as before. While there were more "call-with-any-two-cards then max rebuy" players five years ago, today's bad players last a lot more hands while ~$200/hour in rake and rabbit hunting keeps disappearing from the table. When the bad player eventually busts out, he usually does not have any money to rebuy, so he is replaced by a better player buying in for <= $100.
This is why when I play at Woodbine, I will play 5/5 or 2/5 with pokerJAH.
In spirit anyways...unlikely we will be at the same table
I went to Woodbine on Friday, started a list for open face Chinese @ $2 a point. Waited four hours but no takers so proceeded to bet $10 on Jerk Chicken in the first. Fucking donkey didn't even show. Live horse racing is rigged!.
Comedian Adam Groves is at Woodbine tomorrow at 6-10 PM so you may get an extra joker at the poker table! I'm playing a couple of Deep Stack tournaments this week so I don't know if I'll play at Woodbine this week.
New to the forum and the Toronto poker scene.
Actually just checked out Woodbine for the first time on Sunday. Grinded out 7.5 hours at 1-2 NL.
I think the money there is soft enough that even without beating the rake (which we were most of the time thanks to 6 BB pre-flop raises being the norm) you can be very profitable.
Not an expert by any means, but am hoping to continue grinding out long sessions on the weekend and getting a better feel for the players at Woodbine.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but if you are not beating the rake, how can you still be profitable over the long term?
He must have a plan
#100K
#Tournamentcrusher
K, well as my name indicatges, I am always learningand may not be familiar with all the poker jargon.
But if I sit down and make $20+ an hour, am I not profitable, regardless of the rake. As long as there is soft money to take from other players, I can remain profitable.
Perhaps beating the rake means something different from what I'm thinking.