Once again you're twisting my words and the tale of the tape proves me right.
And once again, it's another example of your narrow focus on the results rather than the long term success of making the correct decisions.
Lets go to the tale of the tape -- LP has ATo . Hmmm. QJ is in decent shape against that hand. MP has JTo, trash as an opener in that game, and he's dominating that hand. BB has Q7, another hand AA dominates.
Can you even appreciate the fact that aces got lucky on this hand? Or are any plays justifiable to you as long as you win the pot? Theres no way in hell his call pre-flop is a long term winner, and I think everyone else here agrees with that point of view.
Magi dominates BBC Z once again!
Except that I've never had to resort to a swear-ridden flame in order to get my points across. So for that, I'll always be ahead of you.
What does everyone ethink the RIGHT play was, regardless of outcome? I'm not sure that the 1/7 call vs Ev is right? If it is then I have to take a new approach....who am I kiding everyone knows Im a calling station.
Spend the extra bet in big pots. Folding saves you 1 bet, but calling only costs you 1 for a potential of some share of the pot which should be bigger than 1.
Okay aces i'm assurping your mod duties and officially giving magi and BBC a time-out from this otherwsie great thread ...
now both of you report to the principles office, and write "I will not hijack a thread" 500 times on the blackboard, or if you prefer on your keyboard, and just consider yourself lucky the Micheal Jackson isn't the principle ..... woooooohoooo
Aces btw, while the result would have been the same, in your opinion do you think raising the turn would have been the better option, since you really needed to know if the flush was out there already before getting to the river.
While i also would have called one bet on the river, i personally would have felt better if i had raised on the turn to figure out where i was. Not sure looking at the actual holdings that anyone would have folded (well except for LP who now only had second pair, top kicker)
I think you've got to move up in limits. It's obviously bingo at this level, with people chasing all kinds of garbage to the river. You'd be better off playing against players who know how to play poker, so that the betting means something.
(I've always wanted to make that particular rant.)
From now on, when I hear a low-limit game being slagged for its poor level of play, I'm going to recommend the PokerStars 30/60 for the kind of solid play they're looking for.
While I was initially skeptical of your pre-flop call with the QJo, and personally fold in the same spot 99%+ of the time, the results of this particular hand certainly support your care-free "I can play a sub-marginal hand because my opponents play badly" theory.
Ni han, sir!
And then I had to... wait... for... it... and LP finally mucked his as well.
BTW, you can't get slowrolled at PokerStars. A hand is shown immediately when it comes up in sequence and it is currently the best (including tied for the best) hand. As soon as MP mucks and LP is the only remaining player, unless you think your connection is lagged, you know you have won the pot.
Even a slight lagg though gives false hope here...my trip eights bet out on the river called in three spots...muck...muck...5 secs (which seemed like much longer)...boom 2's full of my 8's. damn lagg!!!!
Yah dial-up can be a bitch ... i was in a tourney playing on a dial-up ... i went all-in with KK, and then suddenly my connection started lagging ... i was on UB ... 1 minute later it pops back up, and i've tripled up apparently, and apparently it was a real rollercoastr, with someone else flopping a set and then me coming back by getting a 'K' on the river for a bigger set ... a real rollercoaster that i missed.
Aces btw, while the result would have been the same, in your opinion do you think raising the turn would have been the better option, since you really needed to know if the flush was out there already before getting to the river.
Check-raising? Well, it's easy to say that I should have done just that now that I know what everybody held. But travelling back in time I think there's simply no way I can check-raise this board, information or no information. I can say that I had a strong feeling that nobody was holding a flush, but I can't checkraise that board regardless of how strong my feeling was.
Can I honestly say that I had a strong feeling that nobody was holding a flush? I can, but readers would probably say: bullshit. And I wouldn't blame them. Nonetheless, I had a feeling that none of them held a flush, after I saw how the action went down on the turn. To put a fine point on it, I felt that if I hit one of my open-ended straight draw cards, I'd win or chop, as long as it wasn't a flush card. It's a pretty thin draw but it's a pretty big pot, which is more or less why I posted the hand... to generate discussion on that subject.
I would ask you one question, if you assume you lost that hand, overall would you say your session would have mean marginally up or close to break-even rather than big time on the plus side. I ask because you mentioned you were ripping up the game, and you have to wonder what affect that one hand had on you ripping up, doing decently, breaking-even or losing that hand
Hi Chugs,
Between both of my 30/60 sessions last night, I can safely say that that hand wasn't a 'make or break' for me. Since you asked, I'll tell you that I made about 2K at the 30/60 last night. Not spectacular given the stakes, but it was a pretty damn good night for me. Are they all? Of course not. But last night was sweet, made all the more sweet when I won a $200 NL SNG while I was playing in the cash games.
Had I lost that pot, I would have been left with $210 less than before the start of the hand, which would still have me up over 1K. Losing $210 is never fun, but it would have had no real bearing on how good I felt at the end of the night, or on my bankroll. The $630 extra was, well, pleasurable to say the least.
It goes without saying that this is all meaningless... how I do on any one particular night doesn't really matter. Hope that helped, though!
Big pairs, maybe trips, maybe flush draws. Basically, all of these hands are beatable, because on the flop, I had a stone-cold nut draw. Granted, it was (possibly, but not necessarily) to 6 outs instead of 8. I really don't think my flop play was that bad, even if I was indeed up against the best (probable) hand at the time, which would have been a set. The best improbable hands on the flop would be J8 and 68, but I don't make decisions based on putting my opponents on improbable holdings. Furthermore, my nut draw beats both flopped straights if I hit it.
Is Q7o a probable holding? No, and I can honestly say I didn't put anyone--even the BB--on Q7. Because of this, it follows that the BB could just as easily have had J8 or 68. But poker is a game--as has been pointed out--of incomplete information, so I simply do the best I can when it comes to filling in the blanks. And when all else fails, in this case on the flop, I can think: I have flopped a nut draw. If a flush card comes on the turn, I'm gone unless I'm pretty sure nobody has a flush.
Based on a number of things--some tangible (like the betting action) and some intangible (like my feelings about the betting action)--I decided that there wasn't a flush out there. I called the $60 on the turn thinking that I still had 6 outs (as Scotty said, KQ is improbable, so they're fairly clean even though some are to a chop). As it turned out, I had more than six outs--though not many more--as it was the Qs that gave me the pot.
I guess I'm interested in the long term effect of call here is. I think if you suspect a flush and made (ie. a set or a big pair both of which of redraws) hand folding is the right play.
Continuation bet AK? No never do that, my opponents are kreskin and can see into my soul at my 2c/4c limit game.
Let's talk more about why players can't improve: (Hint: look around this forum, they're everywhere)
Maybe we can find out who 13cards would have said Hi to if he wasn't in the 'ultra exclusive high limit pit' (aka, he was taking a four hour dump on the company dollar).
That's much more interesting.
I realize that I'm being very vague at what I'm asking for here:
Comments
And once again, it's another example of your narrow focus on the results rather than the long term success of making the correct decisions.
Can you even appreciate the fact that aces got lucky on this hand? Or are any plays justifiable to you as long as you win the pot? Theres no way in hell his call pre-flop is a long term winner, and I think everyone else here agrees with that point of view.
Except that I've never had to resort to a swear-ridden flame in order to get my points across. So for that, I'll always be ahead of you.
Others please continue to enjoy the great discussion on this thread. Sorry for this interuption of our normal programming.
Cheers
Magi
Edit...Came about three seconds too late with my post!
Spend the extra bet in big pots. Folding saves you 1 bet, but calling only costs you 1 for a potential of some share of the pot which should be bigger than 1.
It's work left to the reader to define 'big'
now both of you report to the principles office, and write "I will not hijack a thread" 500 times on the blackboard, or if you prefer on your keyboard, and just consider yourself lucky the Micheal Jackson isn't the principle ..... woooooohoooo
While i also would have called one bet on the river, i personally would have felt better if i had raised on the turn to figure out where i was. Not sure looking at the actual holdings that anyone would have folded (well except for LP who now only had second pair, top kicker)
(I've always wanted to make that particular rant.)
From now on, when I hear a low-limit game being slagged for its poor level of play, I'm going to recommend the PokerStars 30/60 for the kind of solid play they're looking for.
While I was initially skeptical of your pre-flop call with the QJo, and personally fold in the same spot 99%+ of the time, the results of this particular hand certainly support your care-free "I can play a sub-marginal hand because my opponents play badly" theory.
Ni han, sir!
BTW, you can't get slowrolled at PokerStars. A hand is shown immediately when it comes up in sequence and it is currently the best (including tied for the best) hand. As soon as MP mucks and LP is the only remaining player, unless you think your connection is lagged, you know you have won the pot.
ScottyZ
Can I honestly say that I had a strong feeling that nobody was holding a flush? I can, but readers would probably say: bullshit. And I wouldn't blame them. Nonetheless, I had a feeling that none of them held a flush, after I saw how the action went down on the turn. To put a fine point on it, I felt that if I hit one of my open-ended straight draw cards, I'd win or chop, as long as it wasn't a flush card. It's a pretty thin draw but it's a pretty big pot, which is more or less why I posted the hand... to generate discussion on that subject.
Looks like it worked!
Between both of my 30/60 sessions last night, I can safely say that that hand wasn't a 'make or break' for me. Since you asked, I'll tell you that I made about 2K at the 30/60 last night. Not spectacular given the stakes, but it was a pretty damn good night for me. Are they all? Of course not. But last night was sweet, made all the more sweet when I won a $200 NL SNG while I was playing in the cash games.
Had I lost that pot, I would have been left with $210 less than before the start of the hand, which would still have me up over 1K. Losing $210 is never fun, but it would have had no real bearing on how good I felt at the end of the night, or on my bankroll. The $630 extra was, well, pleasurable to say the least.
It goes without saying that this is all meaningless... how I do on any one particular night doesn't really matter. Hope that helped, though!
Is Q7o a probable holding? No, and I can honestly say I didn't put anyone--even the BB--on Q7. Because of this, it follows that the BB could just as easily have had J8 or 68. But poker is a game--as has been pointed out--of incomplete information, so I simply do the best I can when it comes to filling in the blanks. And when all else fails, in this case on the flop, I can think: I have flopped a nut draw. If a flush card comes on the turn, I'm gone unless I'm pretty sure nobody has a flush.
Based on a number of things--some tangible (like the betting action) and some intangible (like my feelings about the betting action)--I decided that there wasn't a flush out there. I called the $60 on the turn thinking that I still had 6 outs (as Scotty said, KQ is improbable, so they're fairly clean even though some are to a chop). As it turned out, I had more than six outs--though not many more--as it was the Qs that gave me the pot.
Am I right or wrong?
And the fact that I miss discussions like this.
Continuation bet AK? No never do that, my opponents are kreskin and can see into my soul at my 2c/4c limit game.
Let's talk more about why players can't improve: (Hint: look around this forum, they're everywhere)
Maybe we can find out who 13cards would have said Hi to if he wasn't in the 'ultra exclusive high limit pit' (aka, he was taking a four hour dump on the company dollar).
That's much more interesting.
I realize that I'm being very vague at what I'm asking for here:
POST MORE HANDS PLZ.
BBC doesn't really play poker, he made that quite evident at the RC.
I'm pretty sure most people here know that I don't play online anymore.
Is there a story there?