Well . . . assuming said afterlife is of the Catholic variety, what makes you think they would end up in the same location?
I will not relish in the death of another human being, but I will not weep for Morgentaler, nor will I embrace the hagiography that has know doubt already begun. His quest to abolish our abortion laws was, for him, as much about money as any sympathy for a woman's Right to control her body.
Yes I like to stir the pot, but this guy has been fighting for women's rights since 1967. He risked his career, and his very life to stand up for what he believed in, and help women throughout Canada.
I am (as many probably could have guessed), staunchly pro-choice. But this guy (according to the link posted) also was one of the first to offer other birth-control options to both men and women. He has saved lives both directly and indirectly, he has bettered society and at the most simple level, you have to respect the fact that this guy stood up for what he knew to be right despite the threats.
Yes I like to stir the pot, but this guy has been fighting for women's rights since 1967. He risked his career, and his very life to stand up for what he believed in, and help women throughout Canada.
I am (as many probably could have guessed), staunchly pro-choice. But this guy (according to the link posted) also was one of the first to offer other birth-control options to both men and women. He has saved lives both directly and indirectly, he has bettered society and at the most simple level, you have to respect the fact that this guy stood up for what he knew to be right despite the threats.
Hero
Mark
That is like saying Hitler or the KKK are heroes because they stood up for their beliefs to better society by exterminating inferior races to make society better. Do I respect them for standing up for their beliefs? I think Milo hit it directly on the head. Money plain and simple and the world is better off without him. Did you know that this kind of thinking has gotten to the point that they want to pass laws that allow deaths of infants up to the age of two. Morgentaler is on the same par as Hitler for the murder of the innocent. And both will rot in hell as the remember all the life they have terminated.
That is like saying Hitler or the KKK are heroes because they stood up for their beliefs to better society by exterminating inferior races to make society better. Do I respect them for standing up for their beliefs? I think Milo hit it directly on the head. Money plain and simple and the world is better off without him. Did you know that this kind of thinking has gotten to the point that they want to pass laws that allow deaths of infants up to the age of two. Morgentaler is on the same par as Hitler for the murder of the innocent. And both will rot in hell as the remember all the life they have terminated.
i just want to make sure i read this right.
guy risking his life/reputation on giving all women the right to choose what they can do with their own bodies is equal to hitler exterminating an entire race for his own personal gains.
ummm....okay then. just checking.
EDIT: i will admit that i personally don't know the specific reason why this guy fought for pro choice rights for women. maybe he was completely selfish and he planned on making millions of dollars or at least getting a crap ton of pussy for being such a great women's activist. however, despite his reason, i do not understand your comparison at all. i'd ask you to further explain but, honestly, you've never once responded to any of my comments/questions directed towards you so i'm not holding my breath.
While Morgentaler was not a bastion of virtue in his personal life (which of us is?), he risked much to forward a noble and worthwhile cause. I admire his unyielding determination to do what is just and right in the face of huge obstacles and at great risk to himself. Those that admire him do so because of his deeds and what he accomplished. Those that hate him do so because their dogmatic, stone age values had been questioned, challenged and found to be wrong in this instance. Boy, do they hate that.
Did you know that this kind of thinking has gotten to the point that they want to pass laws that allow deaths of infants up to the age of two.
Really? Really? Come on Brent, that's beyond ridiculous. How about a citation of where in the Canadian legal code there are people trying to create a law to allow the deaths of infants up to the age of two. This is similar to the bullshit "death panel" crap people threw out when the state started their slow crawl towards universal health care. It was a lie and so is your statement quoted here.
My beliefs surrounding abortion are not "stone age", but I am not as sanguine as others seem to be over the fact that this country, alone among developed nations, has no laws regulating the termination of pregnancy. I do not blame Morgentaler for this, but our cowardly politicians.
All that being said, I do not plan on engaging in the verbal toing and froing that will no doubt continue without me.
Am I the only one grinning at the fact that a male-dominated board is discussing abortions? Anyone? Anyone? How do the gentle masses feel about tampons vs. pads? Best suggestions for breast tenderness following feeding?
If you're a guy, you're an asshole if you're pro-life. If you pull the religion card, you're still an asshole, and hypocritical to boot.
If you're telling me that Morgantaler isn't deserving of praise and admiration for his work just because he saw money too? You're fucking living in a dream world.
Morgentaler survived the Holocaust. Most of his family were killed. Comparing him to Hitler is fucked, and shows a huge misunderstanding of the issue.
And as for the money thing, doctors make good money. No one usually has a problem with it. The RBC made $2Billion profit in the last 3 months, while firing Canadians and hiring Indians. Their CEO made something like $14Million last year. I think if Morgentaler wanted money without the hassle he would have gone into banking.
Comparing him to Hitler is indeed wrong . . . but the irony of his survival of the Holocaust, juxtaposed with what has been wrought by his crusade should not be dismissed out of hand. As a result of our lack of laws concerning abortion, we now have the following:
Sex selective abortions (why the Feminists are not screaming about this is beyond me)
Abortions due to medical infirmity of the fetus (Down's syndrome, Spina Bifida)
Abortions due to genetic disease markers (ALS, MS, CF)
This is the same sort of eugenics policy, the "weeding out" of the weak and feeble, that was fomented by the Nazis. Now, our former laws did need to be changed, but tell me again how this man is some sort of hero . . .
As for the money angle, it is not about Doctors making "good money", it is about how he set up shop and, through his activism, set about opening his "chain" of clinics across the country, all popularized by said crusade, and thus "cashing in".
Well, the first eugenics policies were first implemented in early 20th century America. They were only adopted later by the Nazis so to compare Morgentaler to Nazis on that basis is still being disingenuous. Don't forget that it was only in 1972 that Alberta stopped practicing forced sterilization.
Secondly, blaming Morgentaler for choices other people make is absurd. He personally had nothing to do with the choices some people have made, other than giving them the ability to make a choice. And he shouldn't be condemned for that.
This is another case of the hypocrisy of the right. They will defend the gun manufacturers and say that they have no responsibility for the choices that some people make using their "tools." Yet, Morgentaler gets vilified for providing the "tool" for women to exercise freedom of choice over their own bodies. In both cases there is the death of a human life. In both cases, a supposedly responsible adult makes a choice. So, why do the right wing continue to defend guns and not abortion?
As for the money angle, it is not about Doctors making "good money", it is about how he set up shop and, through his activism, set about opening his "chain" of clinics across the country, all popularized by said crusade, and thus "cashing in".
He broke the law in order to change the law to feed his massive ego and pocket book. And I stand by the Hitler comparison. You can call my views stone age all you want. That is suppose to hurt me in some way? Or think you are smarter than me? Fine, I admit I not the brightest guy in the room or on this board. But to say society is better off because of the millions of abortions performed because of his stand and to call him a Hero ... is simply beyond anything I can comprehend, then again this is just the extension of Darwinism at its best.
Recently, the legalization of abortions has been credited with, at least in part, a decline in anti-social / illegal trends / criminogenic behaviour. Follow that with the fact that Darwinism is stymied by our culture of "helping those who need it" (which, FWIW, is kinda my bread and butter), it does make sense that one could say society is in fact better off.
I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I'm just trying to put a spotlight on the irrefutable fact that he has improved the quality of life in Canada.
Well . . . except for the human beings he killed. Their lives were ended. and before you offer the usual counter arguments, remember that science would disagree with you on one crucial point. Those fetuses were individual human beings, with separate DNA all of their own. And do not spout off about viability, because a new-born infant is not "viable" either without a parent to provide for them.
Again, not calling for a return to the bad old days, but considering how vehement some folks hereabouts get about the regulation of firearms, I am somewhat puzzled by the attitude that says "hands off" when it comes to killing a human being. But that is just me.
Well, the first eugenics policies were first implemented in early 20th century America. They were only adopted later by the Nazis so to compare Morgentaler to Nazis on that basis is still being disingenuous. Don't forget that it was only in 1972 that Alberta stopped practicing forced sterilization.
Secondly, blaming Morgentaler for choices other people make is absurd. He personally had nothing to do with the choices some people have made, other than giving them the ability to make a choice. And he shouldn't be condemned for that.
This is another case of the hypocrisy of the right. They will defend the gun manufacturers and say that they have no responsibility for the choices that some people make using their "tools." Yet, Morgentaler gets vilified for providing the "tool" for women to exercise freedom of choice over their own bodies. In both cases there is the death of a human life. In both cases, a supposedly responsible adult makes a choice. So, why do the right wing continue to defend guns and not abortion?
I do not blame Morgentaler for our current lack of abortion law, just like I do not blame gun manufacturers for our gun laws. In both instances I am consistent in blaming our politicians. Please try again.
The only thing I have said, by way of "blaming" Morgentaler is that his crusade has pushed our society to this position . . . the only developed nation with no laws surrounding the termination of human life in the womb. I do not think that is an unreasonable link to make.
Fetuses are called fetuses because frankly we don't consider them humans until they're squeezed out a vagina or c-sectioned into our world. I get the argument you're trying to make Milo, but I've often said next time a politician says "It's a person", I'll say "Sure, then start paying baby bonus at the second of conception".
Y'all say Mogentaler was about cash? Nobody's paying a dime until that kid wails out it's first audible cry.
i'm obviously pro choice. i can't fathom why anyone isn't pro choice. i'd never consider taking the rights away from someone else over what they can do with their own bodies simply due to my dogmatic beliefs. if you want to fight for unborn fetuses, all the power to you. it is a worthy fight imho. however, to fight that women shouldn't even have the right to choose is just crazy.
that being said, if i ever knocked someone up (god let's hope not), i'm definitely arguing to keep the baby. i don't want a baby. i may resent having one at some point. however, i accept the consequences of my actions, and fucking sometimes results in babies. you don't want one, don't fuck. easy game. however, that's my choice. i don't have the right to tell others what they can or can't do with their own bodies. it's not my choice, and sorry, it's not any flying spaghetti monter's choice either.
EDIT: and seriously, i really would like to hear the defense of the comparison to hitler. honestly i would. i love hearing the details in debatable arguments especially for the side that i disagree with. i'm a student of human nature and i love to hear why people think the way they do.
i should also go on record to say that the traditional family unit is completely pointless nowadays and in fact i don't think that people should even have the right to have their own children anymore. yeah, i'm kind of extreme when it comes to this stuff lol.
EDIT: see Plato's Republic (minus all the crap about art only having to be for the nation or for god).
I am not saying that abortion should be banned . . . far from it. I just find it interesting that some of the people who so vehemently oppose the Death Penalty (as I do) also vehemently oppose putting ANY limits on the killing of a fetus. Both "victims" (for want of a better term) are human beings. As compuease said, the discussion should be over "what" reasonable limits are acceptable. That is all I am saying . . . after all, in this day and age, what excuse is there for the average woman in this country to get pregnant as a result of "oops"? Personally, I resent paying for somebody elses "oops". Personal responsibility has to come into this somewhere along the way, too, does it not?
i'm obviously pro choice. i can't fathom why anyone isn't pro choice. i'd never consider taking the rights away from someone else
Yet that is exactly what unfettered abortion does to the unborn. As stated, they may not be born, but science has shown that they are distinct human beings with their own DNA. What about their Rights?
Yet that is exactly what unfettered abortion does to the unborn. As stated, they may not be born, but science has shown that they are distinct human beings with their own DNA. What about their Rights?
they don't have rights. the woman's rights trump. if you disagree, take the test tube baby route (as i think everyone should).
Comments
I will not relish in the death of another human being, but I will not weep for Morgentaler, nor will I embrace the hagiography that has know doubt already begun. His quest to abolish our abortion laws was, for him, as much about money as any sympathy for a woman's Right to control her body.
I couldn't agree more. I could say more about what I believe his fate will be for eternity but I will pass.
Mark
sure... stir the pot... pretty quiet here lately anyways..
Yes I like to stir the pot, but this guy has been fighting for women's rights since 1967. He risked his career, and his very life to stand up for what he believed in, and help women throughout Canada.
I am (as many probably could have guessed), staunchly pro-choice. But this guy (according to the link posted) also was one of the first to offer other birth-control options to both men and women. He has saved lives both directly and indirectly, he has bettered society and at the most simple level, you have to respect the fact that this guy stood up for what he knew to be right despite the threats.
Hero
Mark
That is like saying Hitler or the KKK are heroes because they stood up for their beliefs to better society by exterminating inferior races to make society better. Do I respect them for standing up for their beliefs? I think Milo hit it directly on the head. Money plain and simple and the world is better off without him. Did you know that this kind of thinking has gotten to the point that they want to pass laws that allow deaths of infants up to the age of two. Morgentaler is on the same par as Hitler for the murder of the innocent. And both will rot in hell as the remember all the life they have terminated.
i just want to make sure i read this right.
guy risking his life/reputation on giving all women the right to choose what they can do with their own bodies is equal to hitler exterminating an entire race for his own personal gains.
ummm....okay then. just checking.
EDIT: i will admit that i personally don't know the specific reason why this guy fought for pro choice rights for women. maybe he was completely selfish and he planned on making millions of dollars or at least getting a crap ton of pussy for being such a great women's activist. however, despite his reason, i do not understand your comparison at all. i'd ask you to further explain but, honestly, you've never once responded to any of my comments/questions directed towards you so i'm not holding my breath.
fetuses win. power in numbers.
Morgentaler was a capitalist who saw an untapped market | Full Comment | National Post
My beliefs surrounding abortion are not "stone age", but I am not as sanguine as others seem to be over the fact that this country, alone among developed nations, has no laws regulating the termination of pregnancy. I do not blame Morgentaler for this, but our cowardly politicians.
All that being said, I do not plan on engaging in the verbal toing and froing that will no doubt continue without me.
We're getting slow without darb and fed, methinks.
Am I the only one grinning at the fact that a male-dominated board is discussing abortions? Anyone? Anyone? How do the gentle masses feel about tampons vs. pads? Best suggestions for breast tenderness following feeding?
If you're a guy, you're an asshole if you're pro-life. If you pull the religion card, you're still an asshole, and hypocritical to boot.
If you're telling me that Morgantaler isn't deserving of praise and admiration for his work just because he saw money too? You're fucking living in a dream world.
Mark
And as for the money thing, doctors make good money. No one usually has a problem with it. The RBC made $2Billion profit in the last 3 months, while firing Canadians and hiring Indians. Their CEO made something like $14Million last year. I think if Morgentaler wanted money without the hassle he would have gone into banking.
Sex selective abortions (why the Feminists are not screaming about this is beyond me)
Abortions due to medical infirmity of the fetus (Down's syndrome, Spina Bifida)
Abortions due to genetic disease markers (ALS, MS, CF)
This is the same sort of eugenics policy, the "weeding out" of the weak and feeble, that was fomented by the Nazis. Now, our former laws did need to be changed, but tell me again how this man is some sort of hero . . .
As for the money angle, it is not about Doctors making "good money", it is about how he set up shop and, through his activism, set about opening his "chain" of clinics across the country, all popularized by said crusade, and thus "cashing in".
http://ow.ly/lz00C
Secondly, blaming Morgentaler for choices other people make is absurd. He personally had nothing to do with the choices some people have made, other than giving them the ability to make a choice. And he shouldn't be condemned for that.
This is another case of the hypocrisy of the right. They will defend the gun manufacturers and say that they have no responsibility for the choices that some people make using their "tools." Yet, Morgentaler gets vilified for providing the "tool" for women to exercise freedom of choice over their own bodies. In both cases there is the death of a human life. In both cases, a supposedly responsible adult makes a choice. So, why do the right wing continue to defend guns and not abortion?
You can look at it as "cashing in." Or you can look at is as "capitalism at work." Or you can look at it as "providing a much needed service."
Recently, the legalization of abortions has been credited with, at least in part, a decline in anti-social / illegal trends / criminogenic behaviour. Follow that with the fact that Darwinism is stymied by our culture of "helping those who need it" (which, FWIW, is kinda my bread and butter), it does make sense that one could say society is in fact better off.
I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I'm just trying to put a spotlight on the irrefutable fact that he has improved the quality of life in Canada.
Mark
Again, not calling for a return to the bad old days, but considering how vehement some folks hereabouts get about the regulation of firearms, I am somewhat puzzled by the attitude that says "hands off" when it comes to killing a human being. But that is just me.
I do not blame Morgentaler for our current lack of abortion law, just like I do not blame gun manufacturers for our gun laws. In both instances I am consistent in blaming our politicians. Please try again.
The only thing I have said, by way of "blaming" Morgentaler is that his crusade has pushed our society to this position . . . the only developed nation with no laws surrounding the termination of human life in the womb. I do not think that is an unreasonable link to make.
Fetuses are called fetuses because frankly we don't consider them humans until they're squeezed out a vagina or c-sectioned into our world. I get the argument you're trying to make Milo, but I've often said next time a politician says "It's a person", I'll say "Sure, then start paying baby bonus at the second of conception".
Y'all say Mogentaler was about cash? Nobody's paying a dime until that kid wails out it's first audible cry.
Mark
FTR, I am pro choice although not strongly... I do believe in limits however..
Where those limits should be is where the dispute should occur...
that being said, if i ever knocked someone up (god let's hope not), i'm definitely arguing to keep the baby. i don't want a baby. i may resent having one at some point. however, i accept the consequences of my actions, and fucking sometimes results in babies. you don't want one, don't fuck. easy game. however, that's my choice. i don't have the right to tell others what they can or can't do with their own bodies. it's not my choice, and sorry, it's not any flying spaghetti monter's choice either.
EDIT: and seriously, i really would like to hear the defense of the comparison to hitler. honestly i would. i love hearing the details in debatable arguments especially for the side that i disagree with. i'm a student of human nature and i love to hear why people think the way they do.
EDIT: see Plato's Republic (minus all the crap about art only having to be for the nation or for god).
Yet that is exactly what unfettered abortion does to the unborn. As stated, they may not be born, but science has shown that they are distinct human beings with their own DNA. What about their Rights?
they don't have rights. the woman's rights trump. if you disagree, take the test tube baby route (as i think everyone should).