How to deal with Bubble.

So a very unpleasant trend is happening lately.. I'm finding myself bubbling.. more and more over the past few weeks.

It happened twice on the weekend one in the regular weekly game the club has and on Sunday with one of the bigger longer games (10 hourish tourney) and again a few weeks ago in a longer game.

Nothing huge sums but still walking away with nothing to show for it....frustrating.
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Comments

  • I find one of my problems in mtt's is that I play wayyyy to tight at the bubble. This is one area of my game that I need to fix. I guess that's why I should play within my limits so it's not a big deal if I bubble. It' just sucks playing for 3 hours and having nothing to show for it, but on the other hand I will never win many mtt's if I don't chip up instead of blinding down.
    I say keep playing the way you are, your luck will change eventualy.
  • Never worry about bubbling. You are playing to win!

    That being said, you need to be aware of how the rest of the table is playing on the bubble. Obliviously if its tight, then raise up your aggression and build up your stack. If others are playing wild, then let them knock each other out and/or pick a spot to jam it with good hole cards preflop.
  • Since I finish in the top 30% for more than half of my tournaments, I have been the bubble boy probably more than 1,000 times now, :arghh: but I continue to try to make the +$EV decision near the bubble. It is incorrect to "play to win" if it is a -$EV play.

    Another way I increased my ROI was with Bubble Protection. Just like with PartyPoker, I made an initial deposit and just kept making withdrawals since I figured out how to beat the insurance rake. :cool2:
  • Macke...are you bubbling because you are short or because you applying pressure and getting bounced?

    This could be a somewhat good thing.

    Are you considering ICM at all when playing?

    (Not that it's be all end all, just looking for situation)
  • jontm wrote: »
    Macke...are you bubbling because you are short or because you applying pressure and getting bounced?

    This could be a somewhat good thing.

    Are you considering ICM at all when playing?

    (Not that it's be all end all, just looking for situation)

    Usually it is because of applying pressure for instance this is what happened Sunday.

    At the local club..special Sunday Game.. 10k starting stacks with one free auto rebuy.

    I have about 90k and blinds are 20k/40k.. i'm UTG +1 and decide to shove there with a9 suited not waiting to get to blinds... i get called by AK and its pretty much over there.

    Obviously a bit of an extreme example I guess with the blinds so high and everyone I guess being kind of short but still.

    Night before was a bit more bad play by me.. got my BB raised and I shoved with a very small ace.. could have easily stuck around for a while longer just picked bad time to stand up to stupid villain.
  • That said I do feel it can be a problem letting myself getting blinded out at times.
  • Macke wrote: »
    I have about 90k and blinds are 20k/40k..
    Macke wrote: »
    That said I do feel it can be a problem letting myself getting blinded out at times.

    ummm......... yep. ^-^
  • Macke wrote: »
    I have about 90k and blinds are 20k/40k.. i'm UTG +1 and decide to shove there with a9 suited not waiting to get to blinds...
    I would have shoved much earlier as soon as I got in the Red Zone with hands much weaker than A9s. But IF this is the exact bubble, I would fold if I think it's +$EV given the prize structure, whose stack(s) would bubble first if I fold and what they are likely to do, etc.
    Night before was a bit more bad play by me.. got my BB raised and I shoved with a very small ace.. could have easily stuck around for a while longer just picked bad time to stand up to stupid villain.
    IF this was the exact bubble but villain's range is weak enough and you have enough fold equity, then 3-betting all-in with an Ace could be the most profitable play.
  • compuease wrote: »
    ummm......... yep. ^-^

    I know it sounds silly but at the end the table is just so short even with my 2 BBs and change I was probably still 5th or 6th in chips.

    It's just odd when you get to that point and chip leader has like... 8 or 9 BBs..<_> it is kind of something that throws me off in that game.
  • Macke wrote: »
    I know it sounds silly but at the end the table is just so short even with my 2 BBs and change I was probably still 5th or 6th in chips.

    It's just odd when you get to that point and chip leader has like... 8 or 9 BBs..<_> it is kind of something that throws me off in that game.

    This changes the play of the whole table. I assume everyone is very tight while trying to cash right? You need to turn up the heat before getting to <5 BBs.

    Start jamming any Ace, high King, pocket pair and suited connectors. Yes you may bust sooner, but when it can steal blinds you'll have a better chance of deep cashing. Also when you get called and win, you will have heaps to ride FTW.
  • Well, I did it.. I didn't bubble on Saturday.. 9th place! shoved with ducks with 23k..blinds 4/8... got called by a9 suited...9 on flop.

    Anyways now.. I'm in an ante up tourney on stars.. 81 players total.... 24 remain i'm 3rd in chips with around 10k...

    15 get paid.. must keep up aggression.

    Beats in this are just so stupid though.. I can easily see why the nick name jokerstars..

    I've seen three set over sets in the past hour.

    18th... lol
  • Macke wrote: »
    Well, I did it.. I didn't bubble on Saturday.. 9th place! shoved with hand x with 23k..blinds 4/8...

    Not even close to acceptable, but I think you know that already
  • Yeah, I know.

    It is just hard adjusting there..
  • Macke wrote: »
    Yeah, I know.

    It is just hard adjusting there..

    I know it can be tough, good job cashing, keep it up =)
  • Ok.. guess I have to ask for thoughts on this hand.

    So Tuesday night..playing a game that is pretty similar to the Friday and Saturday night ones.

    Blinds are 1500/3000.. I have around 43ishk.. 7 of us on a table and around 20 left in tourney

    Guy in UTG+1 limps and it is folded to me... I look down AK spades..easy shove right? No I decide to once again try to get greedy and just raise I made it...12k everyone folds except UTG+1

    Flop is 10 9 3 two hearts... UTG+1 bets 13k... I think for a minute and shove...he calls and has 8 7 and hits his straight

    I know, I know if I shoved I'd gotten him to fold (But really shouldn't my raise do that anyway? he had 8 high).. but sometimes I just get the whole Austin Powers I like to live dangerously thing going on.
  • You realize that after that flop you were only a slight favorite right? Perhaps 52/48... Once he bet on the flop he was committed and nothing was going to change that. Especially after he was getting better than 2-1 to call your push... No brainer on his part.. Now admittedly he made a mistake limping UTG only 15BB deep...
  • Oh I'm not criticizing his call...

    Just should that have just been a shove pre on my part? Obviously in hindsight it is great yeah I would have won the hand and picked up 7500 (I'm assuming he ain't calling with 8 high.. he had me covered but it's not like his stack was massive.)

    Just want to get the most out of my big hands as I can..
  • Ok this hand then.

    So playing and being aggressive.. I've shoved 3 times getting action once.. and having my KJ>10s to double up to 30kish.. (Other shoves were in pots with 4 or 5 limpers and I had a9hh and 4s)

    Blinds are 800/1600

    I have...24kish and am in BB with 95DD.

    Cut off raies to 4600 and I call.. some other guy calls too.

    Flop

    9S KD 5S...

    I shove right there not wanting to get cute or anything... the other guy calls and preflop raiser folds.

    other guy has King 6

    Turn 3D

    Flop... King of Hearts.

    Fuck.

    He said I was shoving with anything.. I said he only saw one of my shoves.. he said he called cause he had top pair and said he called preflop cause he had odds..

    =/
  • You flopped as well as you could with your garbage hand and still couldn't hold, makes a pretty good case for folding pre, if you do flop two pair there's no point in jamming it

    Other than that it's a really standard spot, you got it in vs top pair and he improved, there's not that much special about this hand except for your massive call pre
  • Do you fold anything pre? Or for that matter does anyone at your game? The K,6 guy is just about as bad a call pre.

    If you want to play a high variance game like that you should be tightening up pre and playing big hands hard.. I have the impression that the reason you get so short so often is that you are calling off large %'s of your stack pre, missing, then doing the same on the next hand.. Just my impression, no offence...:) What would be your fold pre %, any idea?

    FYI, calling off 20% off your stack with 9,5 is not aggressive.
  • Macke wrote: »
    Ok.. guess I have to ask for thoughts on this hand.

    So Tuesday night..playing a game that is pretty similar to the Friday and Saturday night ones.

    Blinds are 1500/3000.. I have around 43ishk.. 7 of us on a table and around 20 left in tourney

    Guy in UTG+1 limps and it is folded to me... I look down AK spades..easy shove right? No I decide to once again try to get greedy and just raise I made it...12k everyone folds except UTG+1
    Flop is 10 9 3 two hearts... UTG+1 bets 13k... I think for a minute and shove...he calls and has 8 7 and hits his straight

    I know, I know if I shoved I'd gotten him to fold (But really shouldn't my raise do that anyway? he had 8 high).. but sometimes I just get the whole Austin Powers I like to live dangerously thing going on.
    2 words..shovey lovey
  • Macke wrote: »
    Ok this hand then.

    So playing and being aggressive.. I've shoved 3 times getting action once.. and having my KJ>10s to double up to 30kish.. (Other shoves were in pots with 4 or 5 limpers and I had a9hh and 4s)

    Blinds are 800/1600

    I have...24kish and am in BB with 95DD.

    Cut off raies to 4600 and I call.. some other guy calls too.

    Flop

    9S KD 5S...

    I shove right there not wanting to get cute or anything... the other guy calls and preflop raiser folds.

    other guy has King 6

    Turn 3D

    Flop... King of Hearts.

    Fuck.

    He said I was shoving with anything.. I said he only saw one of my shoves.. he said he called cause he had top pair and said he called preflop cause he had odds..

    =/
    4 words, pre flop, foldy moldy
  • Macke wrote: »
    Ok.. guess I have to ask for thoughts on this hand.

    So Tuesday night..playing a game that is pretty similar to the Friday and Saturday night ones.

    Blinds are 1500/3000.. I have around 43ishk.. 7 of us on a table and around 20 left in tourney

    Guy in UTG+1 limps and it is folded to me... I look down AK spades..easy shove right? No I decide to once again try to get greedy and just raise I made it...12k everyone folds except UTG+1

    Flop is 10 9 3 two hearts... UTG+1 bets 13k... I think for a minute and shove...he calls and has 8 7 and hits his straight

    I know, I know if I shoved I'd gotten him to fold (But really shouldn't my raise do that anyway? he had 8 high).. but sometimes I just get the whole Austin Powers I like to live dangerously thing going on.

    another thought, try this scenario in the future..ak on the button, utg+1 limps and folded to you..if sb and bb are agro with deep stacks,call, if 1 or both raise,then shove with your 16, 17 blinds...just a thought
  • marban wrote: »
    another thought, try this scenario in the future..ak on the button, utg+1 limps and folded to you..if sb and bb are agro with deep stacks,call, if 1 or both raise,then shove with your 16, 17 blinds...just a thought

    Agree with your first 2 posts but this one? ? Real dangerous, what if they both just call/limp? Can you throw away your AK on the flop and you hit 1 pr... Would be real difficult..
  • compuease wrote: »
    Do you fold anything pre? Or for that matter does anyone at your game? The K,6 guy is just about as bad a call pre.

    If you want to play a high variance game like that you should be tightening up pre and playing big hands hard.. I have the impression that the reason you get so short so often is that you are calling off large %'s of your stack pre, missing, then doing the same on the next hand.. Just my impression, no offence...:) What would be your fold pre %, any idea?

    FYI, calling off 20% off your stack with 9,5 is not aggressive.

    It depends how spewy I feel... lol. .. and sometimes as you can tell I can feel kind of spewy.

    I would have no idea what my fold % would be but I do say I play decently tight after break for sure... for real not just saying that really, really!

    What you say about calling and missing then doing the same thing again.. I do that a little bit sure...but I think a bigger problem is just when I get really card dead I will try to create something on my own..hit a little bit and won't give up...well I guess that sounds a little bit the same.

    My image is something though... you ask one group they'll say i'm a position player who makes alot of bluffs others will say I'm really tight.. meh.
  • To answer your question about people folding at the game.. I would say... no for the most part lol... for example here is the end I talked about where I took the bit of the hit before.

    I'm mid position and have A10 suited.

    UTG who is real short calls 1600.

    I raise to 4000

    K6 guy calls

    SB calls

    BB shoves for 10,400

    UTG calls for his remaining 4k or whatever... I call as does King6 guy.

    BB has 77
    UTG A6
    King 6: Jack 10 off

    Jack 10 makes straight to crack the set of 7s lol.
  • Macke wrote: »
    To answer your question about people folding at the game.. I would say... no for the most part lol... for example here is the end I talked about where I took the bit of the hit before.

    I'm mid position and have A10 suited.

    UTG who is real short calls 1600.

    I raise to 4000

    K6 guy calls

    SB calls

    BB shoves for 10,400

    UTG calls for his remaining 4k or whatever... I call as does King6 guy.

    BB has 77
    UTG A6
    King 6: Jack 10 off

    Jack 10 makes straight to crack the set of 7s lol.

    You shouldve shoved when it got back to you for sure in the game you describe
  • compuease wrote: »
    Agree with your first 2 posts but this one? ? Real dangerous, what if they both just call/limp? Can you throw away your AK on the flop and you hit 1 pr... Would be real difficult..

    jeff, im an old guyand if there are 2 agro 20 somethings, with hoodies, that have shown 3bet or raising tendencies, yes i, ll try that and if they just call it could be difficult.............now if there are passive stations in the blinds, then no im shoving...:)
  • I'm giving my comments, take it or leave it, if u want to give me crap for giving free info I won't post again.

    I want to mention we play poker 2 maximize EV and we are not outcome orriented..
    Macke wrote: »
    Ok.. guess I have to ask for thoughts on this hand.

    So Tuesday night..playing a game that is pretty similar to the Friday and Saturday night ones.

    Blinds are 1500/3000.. I have around 43ishk.. 7 of us on a table and around 20 left in tourney

    Guy in UTG+1 limps and it is folded to me... I look down AK spades..easy shove right? No I decide to once again try to get greedy and just raise I made it...12k everyone folds except UTG+1

    Flop is 10 9 3 two hearts... UTG+1 bets 13k... I think for a minute and shove...he calls and has 8 7 and hits his straight

    I know, I know if I shoved I'd gotten him to fold (But really shouldn't my raise do that anyway? he had 8 high).. but sometimes I just get the whole Austin Powers I like to live dangerously thing going on.

    First things first, It really depends how the UTG+1 player is playing and his stack size... (Does he have u covered?)

    I don't mind the raise preflop from you instead of shoving, If what you are saying that it was only 1 caller.. UTG+1 and SB folded.. I would make a little less, but non the less, I think like 10-12k is fine..

    However postflop, 1 question...
    Why do you shove that flop?

    43K (Start) - 13k (30k left)
    13k bet - 17k left 2 shove...

    The guy is calling 17k more to win 73k (+Ante and SB) so even more..
    You do the math, also do you think someone with half a brain is going 2 try and bluff a T93 board with no fold equity?

    What cant of range can he be limping UTG+1 (Not saying 87 should be in his range since his bad) - But I'm assuming this guy is playing atleast 40% of his hands preflop, and should def be punished..


    Macke wrote: »
    Ok this hand then.

    So playing and being aggressive.. I've shoved 3 times getting action once.. and having my KJ>10s to double up to 30kish.. (Other shoves were in pots with 4 or 5 limpers and I had a9hh and 4s)

    Blinds are 800/1600

    I have...24kish and am in BB with 95DD.

    Cut off raies to 4600 and I call.. some other guy calls too.

    Flop

    9S KD 5S...

    I shove right there not wanting to get cute or anything... the other guy calls and preflop raiser folds.

    other guy has King 6

    Turn 3D

    Flop... King of Hearts.

    Fuck.

    He said I was shoving with anything.. I said he only saw one of my shoves.. he said he called cause he had top pair and said he called preflop cause he had odds..

    =/

    Playing 95s OOP with 15BB is not +EV - I stopped reading this hand when you told me you called 95 OOP short..

    - End story..



    Goodluck..
  • Macke wrote: »
    Usually it is because of applying pressure for instance this is what happened Sunday.

    At the local club..special Sunday Game.. 10k starting stacks with one free auto rebuy.

    I have about 90k and blinds are 20k/40k.. i'm UTG +1 and decide to shove there with a9 suited not waiting to get to blinds... i get called by AK and its pretty much over there.

    Obviously a bit of an extreme example I guess with the blinds so high and everyone I guess being kind of short but still.

    Night before was a bit more bad play by me.. got my BB raised and I shoved with a very small ace.. could have easily stuck around for a while longer just picked bad time to stand up to stupid villain.

    A9 is a shove, you have under 2BB.. the BB should be calling with any 2 cards.. (Yes even 2/7offusit) - According to ICM.. The fact you waited to have 2.25bb is a problem in itself, and there should of been a lot more hands shoved before hand...

    Macke wrote: »
    Well, I did it.. I didn't bubble on Saturday.. 9th place! shoved with ducks with 23k..blinds 4/8... got called by a9 suited...9 on flop.

    Anyways now.. I'm in an ante up tourney on stars.. 81 players total.... 24 remain i'm 3rd in chips with around 10k...

    15 get paid.. must keep up aggression.

    Beats in this are just so stupid though.. I can easily see why the nick name jokerstars..

    I've seen three set over sets in the past hour.

    18th... lol

    You shoved 2.87 BB In your spot even T2o is a shove (ICM) the fact he had A9 and you got a flip you should be extremely happy for..


    I'm pretty sure from the 4 hands i evaluated you are extremely nitty, and you think you can just wait for a hand and win an MTT.. there is a lot more to it and I would REALLY recommend if you do want to get better at your end game to download SNGWizard or some ICM software and plug in some numbers.. You are blinding out and giving youself no fold equity.. (Something else you should read up on)



    Sorry if it's harsh, don't want to be just want to give good info so you can improve your game..
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