Do you agree that the extra 4000 hardly effects our overall stack? And seeing a flop gives a chance at winning a 15k pot?
I actually put him on KQ KJ QT AK AQ AJ type hands. So if flop missed those. I planned on betting.
A couple levels later 5 handed at my table. 11 players remain. Blinds 3000/6000 ante 500
I have about 90000. Bb has 40000. Sb has 60000. Utg+1 has 80000. Button short stack.
I'm Utg dealt AJo. I raise to 20000. Utg+1 goes all in. Folded to me. My move?
A: never just raising here... Jamming/folding only. Probably jamming this..borderline I think? 15bbs but..with antes, so 9 or so effective bbs? Live players tend to call tighter..so yeah, probably jamming this.
B: As played..pot is 109k..60 for us to call...less than 2-1..sigh, fold..kick myself in the nuts for not jamming..
Do you agree that the extra 4000 hardly effects our overall stack? And seeing a flop gives a chance at winning a 15k pot?
I actually put him on KQ KJ QT AK AQ AJ type hands. So if flop missed those. I planned on betting.
I don't agree that it hardly affects our stack, the reason for this is that you can't take away pair from his range so post flop play will always be tricky, either you hit like a bottom pair type hand and wonder if you're good, hit a monster and wonder if you'll really get paid off or hit nothing and have to rep a weak hand by leading out which good players may see through
you'll give him info about your hand by calling, he'll immediatly take out your strongest hands from your range and there's no way you'll get information about his hand without paying for it postflop. I've been learning bridge lately ^^
Yes. Its the number of plrs that give you the long time frame. IMO 20 min levels, hand duration, missing levels in the structure and ante system all contribute to it being a turbo.
Not saying its a bad thing, but we need to further adjust our strategy in these games. You're going to be short more often than not, so you need to develop a push/fold strategy.
Do you agree that the extra 4000 hardly effects our overall stack? And seeing a flop gives a chance at winning a 15k pot?
I actually put him on KQ KJ QT AK AQ AJ type hands. So if flop missed those. I planned on betting.
No I agree with neither of those statements. It does effect our stack, because if you do it in this spot, you do it in many others. This is the very definition of a leak, especially playing 20bb poker.
How do you assign a range of KJ+, AJ+ and not include 77-JJ?
A couple levels later 5 handed at my table. 11 players remain. Blinds 3000/6000 ante 500
I have about 90000. Bb has 40000. Sb has 60000. Utg+1 has 80000. Button short stack.
I'm Utg dealt AJo. I raise to 20000. Utg+1 goes all in. Folded to me. My move?
No I agree with neither of those statements. It does effect our stack, because if you do it in this spot, you do it in many others. This is the very definition of a leak, especially playing 20bb poker.
How do you assign a range of KJ+, AJ+ and not include 77-JJ?
Assign range based on past experiences not just that night.
I wouldn't say leak as I never do that. Can't say never now. Once.
Like I briefly touched on earlier it was the situation, who it was and the timing.
Do you agree that the extra 4000 hardly effects our overall stack? And seeing a flop gives a chance at winning a 15k pot?
I actually put him on KQ KJ QT AK AQ AJ type hands. So if flop missed those. I planned on betting.
The 4k call may not be too much of a hit to your stack. But lets say we do hit something. You've assigned villain a range that doesn't include any pocket pairs. If you hit and bet 15k and villain ships, you likely have to call it off given the odds.
It is reverse implied odds. You are calling 4k to lose a lot more over the course of many many hands. Even if you fold to a ship after your 15k bet, you've lost an extra 19k when you were only invested for 4k.
And when assigning ranges one should nearly always include pocket pairs in that range.
IMO villain played the hand horribly if they really did have 88, which I don't believe they did.
Assign range based on past experiences not just that night.
I wouldn't say leak as I never do that. Can't say never now. Once.
Like I briefly touched on earlier it was the situation, who it was and the timing.
not quite sure where you're going with this thread. you asked for advice. pretty much everyone agrees that you played it poorly. then you get defensive saying you had a read on this villain and assigned him a crazy specific range and knew that he react a certain way to your action.
if you had a read, fine. however, you're looking at -EV playing a hand like this in the long run. you can defend your play if you want, but if you want constructive criticism you got it. i'd suggest considering it.
EDIT: sorry. rereading this post made me think i sound rude. i mean no disrespect.
not quite sure where you're going with this thread. you asked for advice. pretty much everyone agrees that you played it poorly. then you get defensive saying you had a read on this villain and assigned him a crazy specific range and knew that he react a certain way to your action.
if you had a read, fine. however, you're looking at -EV playing a hand like this in the long run. you can defend your play if you want, but if you want constructive criticism you got it. i'd suggest considering it.
EDIT: sorry. rereading this post made me think i sound rude. i mean no disrespect.
I was getting agitated (I guess that comes across as defensive) with the so called constructive critism. I find I get into trouble with poker when I give too much respect. I respected the people here, but to ask a simple question to hopefully get a simple answer seems to much to ask.
I posted looking for critism, but also followed up with thoughts on how things transpired. I forgot to include starting stacks, so forgeting other tidbits is not unrealistic. Sorry if that appears defensive. I guess I should stick to posting hands how my AA got cracked. Reading those greatly improve our games.
To sum up the 4000 call, it is something I never do, did it once and won the hand so wondered what others thought. I got my answer. Thanks all.
There's still other factors that I have not disclosed, but I'll let it go....
Was there something not simple in the answers you got?
Do you have a reason not to respect the advice given?
Do you know your game closely enough to say that you rarely spew like this pre?
If so, why did you imply that we should call a super wide range pre here?
Do you realise that the range you assigned villain is unrealistic?
Do you understand the concept of reversed implied odds?
Do you understand the major advantage of playing a pot in position and that you can't just "lead out flops you think he'll miss and take them down" profitably?
Do you understand that opening to 20k at the 6k level is a massive leak over time?
just a few questions I'm curious about that arose from this thread
Edit: Do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot with?
Was there something not simple in the answers you got? No one is yet to answer the 20000 bet guy psuhes. Simple answers are fold or call.
Do you have a reason not to respect the advice given? I guess its the general attitude of critiquing around here, this line of questions is a good example.
Do you know your game closely enough to say that you rarely spew like this pre? YES
If so, why did you imply that we should call a super wide range pre here? I thought some may agree
Do you realise that the range you assigned villain is unrealistic? How many hands have you seen villian play? as many as me? not just that night
Do you understand the concept of reversed implied odds? enlighten me
Do you understand the major advantage of playing a pot in position and that you can't just "lead out flops you think he'll miss and take them down" profitably? YES
Do you understand that opening to 20k at the 6k level is a massive leak over time? Yes, but given the situation of the previous 10 hands played I thought it was appropiate.
just a few questions I'm curious about that arose from this thread
Edit: Do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot with? 70K was 10% of chips in play. with 20-30 players left to me that seems like a significant stack, what's the question?
Look Jac, I have been gere a long time and while I am not a great player (in fact far from it) you have received advice from some very experience players here... You can ignore it as you wish but to discard it as "attitude" is at your own peril... If you think these opinions are harsh try it on 2+2...;)
Jacen, like you, I defended myself in spots like this time after time..but over time, I also learned that the advice given here (try getting advice on 2+2 with this same hand) is pretty much on the mark. I had the very same leak (and sometimes still do, but know it's incorrect)..4k doesn't mean much right? But it does..
You give a generic situation, then add in all the finite details later to defend yourself..had those details (your given range for villain for ex.) been given to start with...maybe the advice would have been slightly different..I doubt it..but it certainly helps with making decisions.
Stack sizes are a huge part of playing the game, and need to be understood properly ( I am still learning on this, which is why I am following this thread to see where I am corrected..lol)
70K was 10% of chips in play. with 20-30 players left to me that seems like a significant stack, what's the question?
Thought there were only 12 players left in? 12 players or 20-30, doesn't matter...calling that spot is still -ev.
Look Jac, I have been gere a long time and while I am not a great player (in fact far from it) you have received advice from some very experience players here... You can ignore it as you wish but to discard it as "attitude" is at your own peril... If you think these opinions are harsh try it on 2+2...;)
generalizing it all as attitude is not warranted.
you don't see any critiquing attitude here at this site?
Jacen, like you, I defended myself in spots like this time after time..but over time, I also learned that the advice given here (try getting advice on 2+2 with this same hand) is pretty much on the mark. I had the very same leak (and sometimes still do, but know it's incorrect)..4k doesn't mean much right? But it does..
You give a generic situation, then add in all the finite details later to defend yourself..had those details (your given range for villain for ex.) been given to start with...maybe the advice would have been slightly different..I doubt it..but it certainly helps with making decisions.
Stack sizes are a huge part of playing the game, and need to be understood properly ( I am still learning on this, which is why I am following this thread to see where I am corrected..lol)
Thought there were only 12 players left in? 12 players or 20-30, doesn't matter...calling that spot is still -ev.
There was 12 for when hand we discuss, I don't understand his question, but I recall having 70K when there was 20-30 players.
There was 12 for when hand we discuss, I don't understand his question, but I recall having 70K when there was 20-30 players.
You changed the question..lol
the first part was...
Edit: Do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot with?
Then you say this..
70K was 10% of chips in play. with 20-30 players left to me that seems like a significant stack, what's the question?
So...when there were 20-30 players..and you had 70k...blinds were not at 1500/3000... The question is that "do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot??" It's a matter of understanding stack sizes..
I know exactly where you are at..lol...been there. Hell...still there in lots of spots...
generalizing it all as attitude is not warranted.
you don't see any critiquing attitude here at this site?
At times but not in this instance.. And as I said before, try it on 2+2 for real entertainment.... Look, if you don't like the comments, simply ignore them, no harm no foul.. Not trying to be an ass but you did ask, then added more pertinant info trying to justify, then dismissed additional comments..
I'm done, have a good afternoon...
Comments
I would never call in this spot, ever.
/response.
7+ hours for a turbo?
Do you agree that the extra 4000 hardly effects our overall stack? And seeing a flop gives a chance at winning a 15k pot?
I actually put him on KQ KJ QT AK AQ AJ type hands. So if flop missed those. I planned on betting.
I have about 90000. Bb has 40000. Sb has 60000. Utg+1 has 80000. Button short stack.
I'm Utg dealt AJo. I raise to 20000. Utg+1 goes all in. Folded to me. My move?
B: As played..pot is 109k..60 for us to call...less than 2-1..sigh, fold..kick myself in the nuts for not jamming..
curious on others' "as played"...
I don't agree that it hardly affects our stack, the reason for this is that you can't take away pair from his range so post flop play will always be tricky, either you hit like a bottom pair type hand and wonder if you're good, hit a monster and wonder if you'll really get paid off or hit nothing and have to rep a weak hand by leading out which good players may see through
you'll give him info about your hand by calling, he'll immediatly take out your strongest hands from your range and there's no way you'll get information about his hand without paying for it postflop. I've been learning bridge lately ^^
Yes. Its the number of plrs that give you the long time frame. IMO 20 min levels, hand duration, missing levels in the structure and ante system all contribute to it being a turbo.
Not saying its a bad thing, but we need to further adjust our strategy in these games. You're going to be short more often than not, so you need to develop a push/fold strategy.
No I agree with neither of those statements. It does effect our stack, because if you do it in this spot, you do it in many others. This is the very definition of a leak, especially playing 20bb poker.
How do you assign a range of KJ+, AJ+ and not include 77-JJ?
Raise less pre.
18000? 15000?
Assign range based on past experiences not just that night.
I wouldn't say leak as I never do that. Can't say never now. Once.
Like I briefly touched on earlier it was the situation, who it was and the timing.
min raise.
The 4k call may not be too much of a hit to your stack. But lets say we do hit something. You've assigned villain a range that doesn't include any pocket pairs. If you hit and bet 15k and villain ships, you likely have to call it off given the odds.
It is reverse implied odds. You are calling 4k to lose a lot more over the course of many many hands. Even if you fold to a ship after your 15k bet, you've lost an extra 19k when you were only invested for 4k.
And when assigning ranges one should nearly always include pocket pairs in that range.
IMO villain played the hand horribly if they really did have 88, which I don't believe they did.
not quite sure where you're going with this thread. you asked for advice. pretty much everyone agrees that you played it poorly. then you get defensive saying you had a read on this villain and assigned him a crazy specific range and knew that he react a certain way to your action.
if you had a read, fine. however, you're looking at -EV playing a hand like this in the long run. you can defend your play if you want, but if you want constructive criticism you got it. i'd suggest considering it.
EDIT: sorry. rereading this post made me think i sound rude. i mean no disrespect.
I was getting agitated (I guess that comes across as defensive) with the so called constructive critism. I find I get into trouble with poker when I give too much respect. I respected the people here, but to ask a simple question to hopefully get a simple answer seems to much to ask.
I posted looking for critism, but also followed up with thoughts on how things transpired. I forgot to include starting stacks, so forgeting other tidbits is not unrealistic. Sorry if that appears defensive. I guess I should stick to posting hands how my AA got cracked. Reading those greatly improve our games.
To sum up the 4000 call, it is something I never do, did it once and won the hand so wondered what others thought. I got my answer. Thanks all.
There's still other factors that I have not disclosed, but I'll let it go....
Do you have a reason not to respect the advice given?
Do you know your game closely enough to say that you rarely spew like this pre?
If so, why did you imply that we should call a super wide range pre here?
Do you realise that the range you assigned villain is unrealistic?
Do you understand the concept of reversed implied odds?
Do you understand the major advantage of playing a pot in position and that you can't just "lead out flops you think he'll miss and take them down" profitably?
Do you understand that opening to 20k at the 6k level is a massive leak over time?
just a few questions I'm curious about that arose from this thread
Edit: Do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot with?
Jacen, i think you're right. maybe you should just stick with posting AA cracked hands.
You give a generic situation, then add in all the finite details later to defend yourself..had those details (your given range for villain for ex.) been given to start with...maybe the advice would have been slightly different..I doubt it..but it certainly helps with making decisions.
Stack sizes are a huge part of playing the game, and need to be understood properly ( I am still learning on this, which is why I am following this thread to see where I am corrected..lol)
Thought there were only 12 players left in? 12 players or 20-30, doesn't matter...calling that spot is still -ev.
you don't see any critiquing attitude here at this site?
short stack button went all in. I was big blind with 10's. I call. He should bubble, but spikes an ace.
There was 12 for when hand we discuss, I don't understand his question, but I recall having 70K when there was 20-30 players.
on this site? yes sometimes. in this thread? not even close to attitude (if we exclude yours to be honest).
You changed the question..lol
the first part was...
Then you say this..
So...when there were 20-30 players..and you had 70k...blinds were not at 1500/3000... The question is that "do you agree that 70k at the 1500/3000 level is not a lot??" It's a matter of understanding stack sizes..
I know exactly where you are at..lol...been there. Hell...still there in lots of spots...
me attitude? al least there's humour now.
At times but not in this instance.. And as I said before, try it on 2+2 for real entertainment.... Look, if you don't like the comments, simply ignore them, no harm no foul.. Not trying to be an ass but you did ask, then added more pertinant info trying to justify, then dismissed additional comments..
I'm done, have a good afternoon...