This is supposed to be about silly bickering. Not actual discussion. Please don't take threads off topic like this.
Don't be confused by the actual poker talk. It's only a diversion to get the actual bickering restarted. One must start somewhere, and starting from nothing just isn't accpetable. Then again....well, let's see if we can oblidge. I think one more post should do it.
By all means, post your range of hands and show me that QJo is a beauty.
and the LP raiser can't have it because...? And the limper can't have it because....? If the game is as agressive as you appear to think it is, the limper may be looking to trap.
Just explain to me what you are looking for on the flop with QJo against 3 other agressive players. Seems like flopping an OESD is really the only way you'll ever be happy with the hand.
White flag -- I give up*. Can somoene send me a link to a white flag? You're right BBC. I said QJo is a real beauty in this situation and well it just isn't. I thank you for calling me to task and will mend my ways. Happy playing.
Cheers
Magi
*The reason why I'm so upset, is that misrepresenting what people say, is accepted by our society and I just won't stand for it. You get pissed at someone, just accuse them of something, say stealing or being a witch. It's something that's plagued mankind for a long time. Personally, I won't stand for it and will call people on it. It drives me batty that some bozo politician can say that Paul Martin came out and said he is ok with child molestation, or that pinhead Dalton says the conservative goverment lied to us about health care, and well he's going to fix it, or that same sex marriage will lead polygamy. Just say it, and the press makes it a fact. Saying someone did something or said something they haven't offends me. But that's just me and in my bizarro world it won't wash.
just accuse them of something, say stealing or being a witch
That reminds me of the classic Monty Python:
"What evidence do you have she's a witch?"
"She turned me into a newt!"
"She turned YOU into a newt?"
"Well, I got better."
That reminds me of the classic Monty Python:
"What evidence do you have she's a witch?"
"She turned me into a newt!"
"She turned YOU into a newt?"
"Well, I got better."
Ah yes. Reminds me of my favourite scene
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
.. http://www.rit.edu/~smo4215/monty.htm#Scene%204 for the rest.
Kind of reminds me of this thread. Not saying which one of us is Arthur though. That's really based on your perspective. Funny, nonetheless.
Best soap opera thread ever... I had originally thought BBC tends to come off as critical of others play (which is what this forum is for) but maybe a little blunt in his delivery (think sledgehammer). I can see why you'd get a little PO'd Magi, but this flame war just comes across as a little petty. That being said, I still enjoy reading both your posts.
As far as the original debate about the QJo hand, I agree Magi never said the hand was a "beauty", but he did say the hand plays well against the limpers in that pot. A slight misrepresentation at best. I think Magi would probably argue that a good player could use the hand, as well as his skill at outplaying the weaker players post-flop.
Hmm...does anyone find it odd that BBC is favoring the "don't make the preflop mistake" and Magi is favoring the "a good player can rescue a mistake post-flop" argument...?
Hmm...does anyone find it odd that BBC is favoring the "don't make the preflop mistake" and Magi is favoring the "a good player can rescue a mistake post-flop" argument...?
Look at you jump into the fire!!! LoL!!! Very good stuff!
Best soap opera thread ever... I had originally thought BBC tends to come off as critical of others play (which is what this forum is for) but maybe a little blunt in his delivery (think sledgehammer). I can see why you'd get a little PO'd Magi, but this flame war just comes across as a little petty. That being said, I still enjoy reading both your posts.
As far as the original debate about the QJo hand, I agree Magi never said the hand was a "beauty", but he did say the hand plays well against the limpers in that pot. A slight misrepresentation at best. I think Magi would probably argue that a good player could use the hand, as well as his skill at outplaying the weaker players post-flop.
Hmm...does anyone find it odd that BBC is favoring the "don't make the preflop mistake" and Magi is favoring the "a good player can rescue a mistake post-flop" argument...?
There's no real debate. As you say I didn't say it was a beauty in this situation, nor did I say it was good hand, out of position against a large field.
It's not petty. It's slander. I'm sick of it. I said why I was sick of it. I see it every day on TV and BBC has the makings of a good politician.
BTW, I'm not saying it's a pre-flop mistake. Others think it is, but I don't. Don't try it at home. It's only good for the specific game AA was playing and say a five handed high 5/10 or 10/20 game at Paradise. That's where my experience comes from in this type of game.
I said it was a decnt hand against a late raiser against the range of hands he might hold, and the crap MP would be holding cause he was limping and the crap the BB might try ans squeak into the hand for one SB.
Can't anyone get what I said right? It's not that hard folks. Read the post.
With printed word isn't it libel? That's me just stirring the pot!
I wouldn't go that strong. Something closer to 'misrepresentation' I would think is more accurate. (To be charitable, you could call it 'paraphrasing very poorly'. But why be charitable?) Agreed it is annoying since he is attacking your credibility.
Magi, the folks in the know know you are a poker god, relatively speaking.
Technically, I think it's libel actually (nitpicking I know). I wouldn't generally call paraphrasing someone (albeit slightly skewing the original sentiment) to be gross violation of this though. I'm going to steer clear of this now since this obviously strikes a nerve...
Back to the hand in question. (I know, I hijacked the thread with pointless poker talk)
BTW, I'm not saying it's a pre-flop mistake. Others think it is, but I don't. Don't try it at home.
Fair enough. You seem to be saying then that based on the looseness of AA opponents that this is a justifiable call then. I'm curious why you would advocate not trying this at home then? In this specific circumstance vs. a loose ultra aggressive table then you are saying the hand on it's own merits a call. So in a typical loose low-limit game (which seems to look similar to this particular 30-60 game) is it advisable then to cold call a raise out of position with this hand?
Personally, I would say it depends. In my opinion, it depends entirely on the player playing the hand and their ability to play the hand post-flop. (I would guess this is why you would advise "Don't try this at home") In the hands of a weak player, I would guess this preflop call swings massively -EV due to the difficult post-flop decisions (and the inability of a poor player to get away from a marginal flop).
Back to your regularly scheduled flame-war thread...
With printed word isn't it libel? That's me just stirring the pot!
I wouldn't go that strong. Something closer to 'misrepresentation' I would think is more accurate. (To be charitable, you could call it 'paraphrasing very poorly'. But why be charitable?) Agreed it is annoying since he is attacking your credibility.
To quote Chris from Family Guy: "Get out of my head!!!!"
Technically, I think it's libel actually (nitpicking I know). I wouldn't generally call paraphrasing someone (albeit slightly skewing the original sentiment) to be gross violation of this though. I'm going to steer clear of this now since this obviously strikes a nerve...
You are correct on both counts. It's just so dam aggravating that I'm getting sick of it. Every response misrepresents what I've written. There's no way to have a discussion with him, as every one of my responses has to start with me saying "look that's not what I posted..."
Fair enough. You seem to be saying then that based on the looseness of AA opponents that this is a justifiable call then. I'm curious why you would advocate not trying this at home then? In this specific circumstance vs. a loose ultra aggressive table then you are saying the hand on it's own merits a call. So in a typical loose low-limit game (which seems to look similar to this particular 30-60 game) is it advisable then to cold call a raise out of position with this hand?
I think most players will not find themselves in a similar game. There are are many variables which make this a decent hand. I think it's a mistake in a loose low-limit game. The reason is that most low-limit players will not generate three-bets on the flop and/or cap the turn when you actually hit the hand. I would say the same goes for mid-limit players. So, the payoff is much lower in BB in the low/mid limit game and most typically relatively sane games.
Oddly enough, I would say that an open limp in MP with QJo is a mistake in this game.
Personally, I would say it depends. In my opinion, it depends entirely on the player playing the hand and their ability to play the hand post-flop. (I would guess this is why you would advise "Don't try this at home") In the hands of a weak player, I would guess this preflop call swings massively -EV due to the difficult post-flop decisions (and the inability of a poor player to get away from a marginal flop).
Agreed. I would add in a few other things -- you need weak, aggressive, predicatble opponent to make this effective.
Comments
Don't be confused by the actual poker talk. It's only a diversion to get the actual bickering restarted. One must start somewhere, and starting from nothing just isn't accpetable. Then again....well, let's see if we can oblidge. I think one more post should do it.
Cheers
Magi
White flag -- I give up*. Can somoene send me a link to a white flag? You're right BBC. I said QJo is a real beauty in this situation and well it just isn't. I thank you for calling me to task and will mend my ways. Happy playing.
Cheers
Magi
*The reason why I'm so upset, is that misrepresenting what people say, is accepted by our society and I just won't stand for it. You get pissed at someone, just accuse them of something, say stealing or being a witch. It's something that's plagued mankind for a long time. Personally, I won't stand for it and will call people on it. It drives me batty that some bozo politician can say that Paul Martin came out and said he is ok with child molestation, or that pinhead Dalton says the conservative goverment lied to us about health care, and well he's going to fix it, or that same sex marriage will lead polygamy. Just say it, and the press makes it a fact. Saying someone did something or said something they haven't offends me. But that's just me and in my bizarro world it won't wash.
Cheers
Magi
That reminds me of the classic Monty Python:
"What evidence do you have she's a witch?"
"She turned me into a newt!"
"She turned YOU into a newt?"
"Well, I got better."
Ah yes. Reminds me of my favourite scene
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
.. http://www.rit.edu/~smo4215/monty.htm#Scene%204 for the rest.
Kind of reminds me of this thread. Not saying which one of us is Arthur though. That's really based on your perspective. Funny, nonetheless.
Cheers
Magi
As far as the original debate about the QJo hand, I agree Magi never said the hand was a "beauty", but he did say the hand plays well against the limpers in that pot. A slight misrepresentation at best. I think Magi would probably argue that a good player could use the hand, as well as his skill at outplaying the weaker players post-flop.
Hmm...does anyone find it odd that BBC is favoring the "don't make the preflop mistake" and Magi is favoring the "a good player can rescue a mistake post-flop" argument...?
Look at you jump into the fire!!! LoL!!! Very good stuff!
There's no real debate. As you say I didn't say it was a beauty in this situation, nor did I say it was good hand, out of position against a large field.
It's not petty. It's slander. I'm sick of it. I said why I was sick of it. I see it every day on TV and BBC has the makings of a good politician.
BTW, I'm not saying it's a pre-flop mistake. Others think it is, but I don't. Don't try it at home. It's only good for the specific game AA was playing and say a five handed high 5/10 or 10/20 game at Paradise. That's where my experience comes from in this type of game.
I said it was a decnt hand against a late raiser against the range of hands he might hold, and the crap MP would be holding cause he was limping and the crap the BB might try ans squeak into the hand for one SB.
Can't anyone get what I said right? It's not that hard folks. Read the post.
Cheers
Magi
I wouldn't go that strong. Something closer to 'misrepresentation' I would think is more accurate. (To be charitable, you could call it 'paraphrasing very poorly'. But why be charitable?) Agreed it is annoying since he is attacking your credibility.
Magi, the folks in the know know you are a poker god, relatively speaking.
I say bring it on QJ boy!!!!
Technically, I think it's libel actually (nitpicking I know). I wouldn't generally call paraphrasing someone (albeit slightly skewing the original sentiment) to be gross violation of this though. I'm going to steer clear of this now since this obviously strikes a nerve...
Back to the hand in question. (I know, I hijacked the thread with pointless poker talk)
Fair enough. You seem to be saying then that based on the looseness of AA opponents that this is a justifiable call then. I'm curious why you would advocate not trying this at home then? In this specific circumstance vs. a loose ultra aggressive table then you are saying the hand on it's own merits a call. So in a typical loose low-limit game (which seems to look similar to this particular 30-60 game) is it advisable then to cold call a raise out of position with this hand?
Personally, I would say it depends. In my opinion, it depends entirely on the player playing the hand and their ability to play the hand post-flop. (I would guess this is why you would advise "Don't try this at home") In the hands of a weak player, I would guess this preflop call swings massively -EV due to the difficult post-flop decisions (and the inability of a poor player to get away from a marginal flop).
Back to your regularly scheduled flame-war thread...
To quote Chris from Family Guy: "Get out of my head!!!!"
You are correct on both counts. It's just so dam aggravating that I'm getting sick of it. Every response misrepresents what I've written. There's no way to have a discussion with him, as every one of my responses has to start with me saying "look that's not what I posted..."
I think most players will not find themselves in a similar game. There are are many variables which make this a decent hand. I think it's a mistake in a loose low-limit game. The reason is that most low-limit players will not generate three-bets on the flop and/or cap the turn when you actually hit the hand. I would say the same goes for mid-limit players. So, the payoff is much lower in BB in the low/mid limit game and most typically relatively sane games.
Oddly enough, I would say that an open limp in MP with QJo is a mistake in this game.
Agreed. I would add in a few other things -- you need weak, aggressive, predicatble opponent to make this effective.