BBC Magi Thread
BBC Z wrote:umm... Didnt you say that you were winning over 5BB/100 and intended to continue that run for a year to win 100k? And then you got all mad when that was challenged?
I won't pollute other threads with our banter, so I've started our very own.
I said my goal was to win 5BB/100 hands and said it was a very difficult thing to achieve. I did say I was/am winning at a rate of 4BB/100 hands even with my horrible streak in Feb -- over multiple limits and over 30k hands.
I didn't get upset about a challenge. I got upset over some of your remarks which were dismissive and insulting. I think it may have been something to do with being called an idiot. But hey, you've got your style, which must work for you.
Check the tape!
Cheers
Magi
Comments
I didn't think you'd actually do the work, so I dug up my post. Check it out.
Cheers
Magi
I orignally said QJo is in decent shape in this situation against an LP raiser with an MP limper.
You then said that I must be foolish to think QJo is a good against a large field.
I then said, I dominate you
You say that I'm results oriented and that doesn't prove a thing.
I once again say I dominate you.
Her's a suggestion for the next post. "Magi you're an idiot because you just have no concept of the weather -- it's cold outside -- anyone but a moron would know that. Ipso facto, you're a moron. I rest my case, it's cold outside and you must be a moron." (you can take credit for the post -- I'll edit this out).
Yes, you will always have the fact that I went into a tirade against you. You can hold that over my head. :eek: Perhaps you may want to consider why you provoked someone who is extremely friendly, fun loving and generally easy going into such a tirade. Ah, forget it -- just point out that I'm nuts because I of my swear ridden post.
Cheers
Magi
LoL!!! You, my friend, are nuts!!!
So I've got pocket Queens...
ScottyZ
You had me laughing for a good minute. Yes, you are correct sir.* Ni han.
Cheers
Magi
* I do use the George Costanza book quite often. If you believe you have the flush, then you really have the flush. Only problem is when two-pair Sally doesn't really care what you have, dammit she had two-pairs, don't you know.
It appears that magi just wants to use it to insult me, so I don't see a point.
But allow me to try and find the nugget of actual info..
Here's the problem with your thinking: Poker is a damn easy game when you work backwards. Why? Because you have all the information you need.
At the time of that hand playing down, AA was asking himself "Why the hell am I still in this hand on the turn?" and "How did I get myself into this situation?" because he knew he was in trouble and got bailed out by the cards and the players and the pot. So just because he won this time, do you really think he'll be value betting the river in the future? Of course not.
And this is what I refer to as long term decision making. If he continues to put himself in that position over the long term, he will likely lose more than he wins. This appears to be the step that you have trouble with because you just see the chips pushing themselves across the table into your stack.
that's okay they'll go down to my ducks in the hole ... quack quack
It is so we don't pollute other threads when you're mis-representing what I say and then say you're right. Round 4 -- I still dominate you
I posted well in advance of AA posting the hands his opponents held. I was right. Check the time of the posts. You should have stuck with my suggestion "Magi anyone but a moron knows it's cold in Canada during the winter. It's cold outside, therefore you are a moron"
I didnt see those questions. Did you. I did see that he didn't want comments on his pre-flop call, but I chose to offer up a suggestion on why I thought it could be correct.
Good players will get themselves into and out of hot water. I have no fear that AA will be a long term winner because he can get to Level 2 and Level 3 thinking, in milleseconds. On a positive note, he made more in this hand than you've made in the last month.
I am actually beginning to see BBC sit on the couch and slip his hand into his pants...
Round 5 -- I still dominate you!
I never said I was ok with you. I'm not ok with someone who misrepresents what I say or implies I said something when I did not. I never said I was ok with you.
Sticking to the point. Hah. Try figuring out what I've actually posted and sticking to that. Even in this short retort, you can't get the facts correct.
Cheers
Magi
Hmmm... both mean-spirited and based on a false premise. A low blow, since we're fond of boxing metaphors.
Let's not get too carried away just because this thread has been spun off separately, okay?
One month poker returns are not a good measurement of poker performance. I for one at least hope that this is so. My poker return was negative last month.
Furthermore, (though I have limited information to piece this together) I wouldn't be surprised if BBC Z did make more than ~$750 in a particular month of poker. I'd also venture a guess that BBC Z's performance is superior to a vast majority of players in terms of the return/risk ratio.
Any donkey* could make more money in some particular month than BBC Z, myself, Dave Scharf, magithighs, all_aces, and Howard Lederer combined if his bankroll was big enough and he got a lucky run of cards.
*sigh* I just wish I could cheer things up a bit in this thread. Who took away the Santa Smileys on me?
Look at me trying to hijack this thread. Ironic huh? Maybe I'm just jealous that you guys have your own thread.
ScottyZ
*To be absolutely clear, I am NOT referring to all_aces (or anyone) as the donkey here.
:rolleyes:
if i was to call him an animal i'm sure i could find many more appropriate
did you hear the one about a newfie who tried to kill a fish, by trying to drown it. Not sure why that joke came to mind.
And, I'm not sure if Chugs is calling me a fish. (It's OK, I've been called worse, and my play in that 30/60 hand will plant seeds of doubt in the minds of anyone who once believed I was a good player
But I'm not here to talk about Devin 'the animal' Armstrong. (Hell, that works almost as nicely as 'all aces' Armstrong....).
I'm here to say that we should probably cut BBC some slack. Since his one-week ban I think that his conduct has improved dramatically. I for one know what it's like to deal with people who won't let bygones be bygones.
That's not a shot at you Magi. You and and BBC are both EXTREMELY valuable contributors to this forum, IMHO, and this place wouldn't be as good if either of you was to leave. So, it would be nice to see you guys come to some sort of a resolution before one or both of you decides that it's not worth it to post here anymore. Because then we'd all lose, and we're poker players. We like to win.
PM each other, whatever needs doing... Find a way to develop some respect for each other even if you don't necessarily LIKE each other. I think everyone would benefit from this.
As for the latter, BBC used to drive me up the wall. Then I developed a distant respect for him, but I still didn't like him. And now I have no problem with him at all.
Since the begining I've been extremely happy posting and exchanging ideas. Not sure what happened but I seemed to draw the scorn of BBC and have repeatedly been called an idiot/moron for things I didn't say or post. Quite frankly, I don't mind being called to task for something I've said/done. Just ask some of the folks here who've taken some time to send my PMs.
I will NOT cut BBC slack. He's continuously misrepresenting what I say/post and he should be called for it. He comes off as someone who's far more knowlegeable than the folks in this forum. My first experience was when he got himself banned for his post to Zithal. He talked as if bonus chasing was way beneath him, and that Zithal had nothing to contribute. When I probed, I find out he's some wannabe .5/1 player. Quite frankly, I have NO respect for him. If he was the last person on earth I wouldn't play poker with him -- I'd beat the living daylights out of him and take his money. Same conclusion. I'd be happier and I wouldn't have to listen to his crap.
Yes, I know I'm taking this too far. But anyone who does not have any (edit gm) respect for others should be taken to task. Perhaps it's the pot calling the kettle black. But, my disrespect is limited to some piss-ant pint sized bozo, and not the rest of the forum or others I know.
Cheers
Magi
P.S. I will not talk to this guy in private. The rest of the gang does not have to read "our" post.
I actually need to echo aces and pkrfce9 sentiments on this matter. I had my own public disagreement with BBC, but i've found that he as tried much harder (in regards to everyone else and even you), to be civil and respectful.
magi you know i think your a great guy and all, but at this point though it's you who'se needling him and you gotta drop it. Do it for your own self respect, if you believe that discussing with him is below you for whatever reason, don't talk to him at all, and every time you see a post of his don't read it, or obviously respond to it.
I myself am often a bad messenger, but i hope that my message still gets out. At this point i think either you and BBC need some time apart or some marriage counselling, not sure which one.
I realize i've been relatively soft in my words, and carefully so. Really at this point i would say both of you act your age, and leave it alone. And for the love of god neither of you should reply to this post with references to the others age, bankroll, or i know i am, but what are you type responses.
What a concept!!!
Aces after the QJ hand it's the one of the few time i'm going to get to call you a fish, and i can't pass that up
I would ask you one question, if you assume you lost that hand, overall would you say your session would have mean marginally up or close to break-even rather than big time on the plus side. I ask because you mentioned you were ripping up the game, and you have to wonder what affect that one hand had on you ripping up, doing decently, breaking-even or losing that hand
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hummmm okay i'm officially a moron for that post, advising people to get back on thread, in a thread that was on thread. I was going to delete it, but i just figured pointing out my own stupidity may be a more effective way to reduce the tension on this thread, that is on thread.
Sorry, I disagree. He hasn't tried one bit to read what I actually wrote. In this last scrum, he misrepsented what I said 4 times. I pointed that out four times. I will continue to point it out when he does it.
I find that extremely offensive. It's hard to defend your words when they're not your words. I'm particularly sensitive to this for my own reasons. I don't need any counselling or anything else. I know you're trying to lighten it up, but I don't think it's funny. When BBC stops misrepresenting what I say, then I'll lighten up on him.
Cheers
Magi
Hopefully, they won't pollute our threads with name calling and leave it for this thread only.
As for their posts...I think both bring a certain dimension to this forum and I most say...those who like it like a lot!
ok. Thats your statement.. Now heres the hand as it happened for aces..
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=814085
pokenum -h qc 7s - js tc - qh jd - ah td
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s Qc 179336 16.51 887417 81.71 19255 1.77 0.173
Js Tc 93527 8.61 960526 88.45 31955 2.94 0.100
Jd Qh 227759 20.97 820744 75.57 37505 3.45 0.226
Td Ah 537984 49.54 534319 49.20 13705 1.26 0.501
So we see we're putting in 25% of the equity for 20% of the pot. Also, I think this hand distribution is one of the best case scenarios. Because we're up against two players we have dominated and only one overcard. YET, with all those benefits, we're major dogs to the AT preflop and don't even make up enough from the crummy other hands that came along for the ride.
Lets switch up the cards to get rid of the domination scenarios and see what happens..
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=814090
pokenum -h kc 7s - 8h 8d - qh jd - ah td
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s Kc 230575 21.23 853952 78.63 1481 0.14 0.213
8d 8h 269685 24.83 814842 75.03 1481 0.14 0.249
Jd Qh 282371 26.00 802156 73.86 1481 0.14 0.260
Td Ah 301896 27.80 782631 72.06 1481 0.14 0.278
Ok.. we're getting a cool 1% profit preflop with the call.. But lets look at a bad case scenario..
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=814096
pokenum -h 9s 8s - kh kc - qh jd - ah ts
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9s 8s 212483 19.57 871843 80.28 1682 0.15 0.196
Kc Kh 502994 46.32 581332 53.53 1682 0.15 0.464
Jd Qh 124865 11.50 959461 88.35 1682 0.15 0.115
Ts Ah 243984 22.47 840342 77.38 1682 0.15 0.225
We're putting in 25% to get 11% back.
So it appears that we are at best either a coin toss with the other 3 hands, or a dog.
Thanks for doing the research. I would say QJo is in decent shape here. That's just my opinion based on the type of game and the players involved.
IMO, there's no way Limper's holding a pocket pair (88orKK) in this game, and the BB would re-raise pre-flop with any pocket pair they would play. Keep in mind my assessment is specifically for the game which AA was playing. It's not a normal game as ScottyZ and AA have pointed out. It's a hyper-aggressive game which has some weak players. Weak is a relative term and I say that relative to a player like ScottyZ or AA. So, I don't buy that range of hands you've illustrated here. My experience is that the hands they held are very representative of the possiblities. The only thing which the raiser could have is big pocket pair, which would make things ugly -- JJ-AA are horrible for AA. I think he knows when to bail, and thus the losses would be minimized while the benefits are large. All in all, I feel QJo is a decent hand in that situation.
So i guess the question is would aces have cold called the raise on the button with QJ
By all means, post your range of hands and show me that QJo is a beauty.
and the LP raiser can't have it because...? And the limper can't have it because....? If the game is as agressive as you appear to think it is, the limper may be looking to trap.
Just explain to me what you are looking for on the flop with QJo against 3 other agressive players. Seems like flopping an OESD is really the only way you'll ever be happy with the hand.