ofc if you're gonna write that off I can't begin to fathom why you created this thread hoping to find some other guy who had played 20k of these to talk to
Listen to me being clear-THIS THREAD WAS NOT CREATED TO DISCUSS RANGES.
Poker forums work like this poster gives assumptions.....players use the assumptions to give answers...
This thread was created to discuss what happens when the blinds go up and our chips are in the air....and to discuss why i think its important to slightly over 3bet shove rather than grossly undershoot it.....
if you want to continue to argue about something thats off topic please don't in this thread.
I already told you I had no further intrest in this thread, chill
thats unfortunate...because now that we've gotten past 10pages of arguing whether or not my premise is true....we've now gotten to my topic of discussion that im curious to hear everyone's opinion on...
with a very breakeven situation....what happens when the blinds will go up and our chips are in mid air...
and with a very breakeven situation and the blinds gong up is it better to 3bet shove a hand that is possibly -ev knowing that we are shoving a more profitable range than the rest of the field that shoves uber tight.
Because there are tons of spots where people never shove a wider 3bet range...I think that 90% of players at least don't really adjust 3bet ranges at all in 180 mans
these are the reasons i created this....and im curious about these two things
If for no other reason than 10 pages of debate would make my head hurt.
Darb, why not just make it a standard play to shove atc soon after hitting the money on a MP 9-14 BB minraiser and see what your ROI line looks like after the next 5k hands?
Darb, why not just make it a standard play to shove atc soon after hitting the money on a MP 9-14 BB minraiser and see what your ROI line looks like after the next 5k hands?
how about I shove when I think a shove is correct...and then you shove when you think shoving is correct...and me and you will compare roi's
keeping in mind you need at least a 5k sample size and the fact that my roi is with 24 tabling....
but if you read the last few pages i think you would be flaming me for thinking that shoving 42o can be better than folding kto in a situation like this.
thats what i want to know.....but you have to understand how I came up with that...
i can see the logic behind that but I dont think its true. All the pairs that call you, the occasional q10s or j10s that will call you even qjs. making K10 the better hand IMO.
i can see the logic behind that but I dont think its true. All the pairs that call you, the occasional q10s or j10s that will call you even qjs. making K10 the better hand IMO.
but its a worse range
.....because you aren't shoving 30% of value hands you should be....where as if i overshoot it...im taking -ev hits...but im hitting every single value hand.....and every value hand minus some -ev hits...is still better than folding anything less than kto....(in spots like this if my parameters were true)
how about I shove when I think a shove is correct...and then you shove when you think shoving is correct...and me and you will compare roi's
keeping in mind you need at least a 5k sample size and the fact that my roi is with 24 tabling....
But you are the one saying fish are minr/folding here always. So should it be a shove iyo always? Or are you just micro-imagining a solid spot here for 100+ posts.
EDIT: Oh and 5k hands would probably take me a couple months......so you're right. /thread
But you are the one saying fish are minr/folding here always. So should it be a shove iyo always? Or are you just micro-imagining a solid spot here for 100+ posts.
this isn't about this...its not the arguement...the argument is...i can make a mistakes by shoving too wide and still pull a higher roi than you shoving to tight....
meaning i can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by shoving a -ev hand like 42o knowing its wrong...than you do folding a hand like k9o
this isn't about this...its not the arguement...the argument is...i can make a mistakes by shoving too wide and still pull a higher roi than you shoving to tight....
now you're stating the obvious, both shoving too wide and too tight are mistakes
Edit: Although you still need fold equity on your shove else you're the one fucking up royally
meaning i can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by shoving a -ev hand like 42o knowing its wrong...than you do folding a hand like k9o
(thread\)
LOL.
Which by definition means.....
I can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by folding a hand like k9o not knowing its right...than you do shoving a -ev hand like 42o.
now you're stating the obvious, both shoving too wide and too tight are mistakes
Richard if you start with the assumption im an idiot...your always going to think im wrong and im always going to come across as annoying or however you think.
no im saying i can shove a hand i know is wrong and i know its a mistake to shove....and still have it boost my roi higher than anyone else in the field for certain spots....
I can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by folding a hand like k9o not knowing its right...than you do shoving a -ev hand like 42o.
you still think i am arguing that 42o is a shove....and your nit picking try to find something wrong with everything i say...im not trying to fight you...please don't fight me....
im showing something that is a great theoretical question...hoping vekked or someone who understands the math with ranges, roi, and gbucks, can answer my question.........you have completely missed my point and my question....you sir....not richard...but you....will have to read this thread over and over to even come close to understanding what im getting at....and even then you won't know ever how it applies to your game....
this thread is beyond your understanding....so please stop
you still think i am arguing that 42o is a shove....and your nit picking try to find something wrong with everything i say...im not trying to fight you...please don't fight me....
im showing something that is a great theoretical question...hoping vekked or someone who understands the math with ranges, roi, and bucks, can answer my question.........you have completely missed my point and my question....you sir....not richard...but you....will have to read this thread over and over to even come close to understanding what im getting at....and even then you won't know ever how it applies to your game....
this thread is beyond your understanding....so please stop
Ha ha. You sir will never understand what I understand about your understanding. You're propagating a theory, I just tend to think there are holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. A theory based on "sometimes" to me is not worth the price of logging on here.
Ha ha. You sir will never understand what I understand about your understanding. You're propagating a theory, I just tend to think there are holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. A theory based on "sometimes" to me is not worth the price of logging on here.
Again, you win.
but your being a moron because you have no idea what that theory is...nor are you intelligent enough to wrap your brain around it .....yet you are telling me that i have holes in it
and i already asked you to leave this thread...i have an intelligent question to ask that was hard to get to you have nothing to contribute
I never called you an idiot, I never really came close to calling you an idiot
you're stubborn, a bit full of yourself thinking you're smarter than villain and you never once admitted that shoving the not low was a bad play, even when vekked spelled it out clearly for you
but your being a moron because you have no idea what that theory is...nor are you intelligent enough to wrap your brain around it .....yet you are telling me that i have holes in it
and i already asked you to leave this thread...i have an intelligent question to ask that was hard to get to you have nothing to contribute
Wow, you really are angry. Watch it, your dermis is showing. Dude, spark one up and chillax.
EDIT: Oh and I'm not going to waste my time, but go back over the thread and find an example of me calling you stupid or moron, or idiot. Or even saying your theory was stupid, moronic or idiotic. You're free to over think any play you want, I hold the right to question it whenever I want.
People who don't understand any of the math here keep stopping by to tell me i don't know what im taking about....(not you)...like im taking a berating and im just trying to get to a question.
and you never once admitted that shoving the nut low was a bad play, even when vekked spelled it out clearly for you
no your just thinking about the argument that we never should have had. It doesn't matter....the question is about something else....and it actually turns out (maybe) with my adjustments it doesn't matter if its -ev......we should still shove
but shoving 42o is by far the better play even though its totally -ev
but most people will get stuck on 42o being -ev and they will fold it...
I disagree with this. Well I do about K10o for sure, which was your original point. As i said explain what hands that call you are better when you have 42o than k10o and vice versa
I disagree with this. Well I do about K10o for sure, which was your original point. As i said explain what hands that call you are better when you have 42o than k10o and vice versa
you are slightly misunderstanding me...but thank you for giving a crazy kid a shot.....
look at the ranges we are shoving...if you go back a few pages i posted them...
when you fold kto you also fold k9o qto jto etc etc
if you shove 42o.....you also shove a few -ev hands....you make some other mistakes too....but you guarantee you are shoving kto k9o qto...and any other profitable hand.....
so im staring at a -ev hand...knowing if i shove....my range is better than one that folds kto....
i still think you will disagree but i want you to be totally on the same page first.
pfft I really think that makes such a small difference that it barely, if at all matters. Spend your time working on more important parts of your game than wasting time on this thread IMO
pfft I really think that makes such a small difference that it barely, if at all matters. Spend your time working on more important parts of your game than wasting time on this thread IMO
this concept applies to every single shove we make
Why is this thread still going after dataman and vekked posts?
I love ya Darb more so your last few posts but your getting way to caught up in the math side of it and it may hurt your game more than help it and I don't want to see that happen to you.:(
Comments
Poker forums work like this poster gives assumptions.....players use the assumptions to give answers...
This thread was created to discuss what happens when the blinds go up and our chips are in the air....and to discuss why i think its important to slightly over 3bet shove rather than grossly undershoot it.....
if you want to continue to argue about something thats off topic please don't in this thread.
with a very breakeven situation....what happens when the blinds will go up and our chips are in mid air...
and with a very breakeven situation and the blinds gong up is it better to 3bet shove a hand that is possibly -ev knowing that we are shoving a more profitable range than the rest of the field that shoves uber tight.
Because there are tons of spots where people never shove a wider 3bet range...I think that 90% of players at least don't really adjust 3bet ranges at all in 180 mans
these are the reasons i created this....and im curious about these two things
If for no other reason than 10 pages of debate would make my head hurt.
Darb, why not just make it a standard play to shove atc soon after hitting the money on a MP 9-14 BB minraiser and see what your ROI line looks like after the next 5k hands?
keeping in mind you need at least a 5k sample size and the fact that my roi is with 24 tabling....
thats what i want to know.....but you have to understand how I came up with that...
.....because you aren't shoving 30% of value hands you should be....where as if i overshoot it...im taking -ev hits...but im hitting every single value hand.....and every value hand minus some -ev hits...is still better than folding anything less than kto....(in spots like this if my parameters were true)
and we get pair on our 'ranges' not our hands
But you are the one saying fish are minr/folding here always. So should it be a shove iyo always? Or are you just micro-imagining a solid spot here for 100+ posts.
EDIT: Oh and 5k hands would probably take me a couple months......so you're right. /thread
meaning i can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by shoving a -ev hand like 42o knowing its wrong...than you do folding a hand like k9o
hey im sorry thats a stipulation be we both know anything under that is just variance....i mean maybe 2-3k tourney...but its true and fair (thread\)
now you're stating the obvious, both shoving too wide and too tight are mistakes
Edit: Although you still need fold equity on your shove else you're the one fucking up royally
LOL.
Which by definition means.....
I can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by folding a hand like k9o not knowing its right...than you do
shoving a -ev hand like 42o.
no im saying i can shove a hand i know is wrong and i know its a mistake to shove....and still have it boost my roi higher than anyone else in the field for certain spots....
im showing something that is a great theoretical question...hoping vekked or someone who understands the math with ranges, roi, and gbucks, can answer my question.........you have completely missed my point and my question....you sir....not richard...but you....will have to read this thread over and over to even come close to understanding what im getting at....and even then you won't know ever how it applies to your game....
this thread is beyond your understanding....so please stop
(puts popcorn in the microwave
so in a hypo spot....
folding k9o is 0 ev
shoving 42o is fairly -ev
but shoving 42o is by far the better play even though its totally -ev
but most people will get stuck on 42o being -ev and they will fold it...
Ha ha. You sir will never understand what I understand about your understanding. You're propagating a theory, I just tend to think there are holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. A theory based on "sometimes" to me is not worth the price of logging on here.
Again, you win.
and i already asked you to leave this thread...i have an intelligent question to ask that was hard to get to you have nothing to contribute
you're stubborn, a bit full of yourself thinking you're smarter than villain and you never once admitted that shoving the not low was a bad play, even when vekked spelled it out clearly for you
Wow, you really are angry. Watch it, your dermis is showing. Dude, spark one up and chillax.
EDIT: Oh and I'm not going to waste my time, but go back over the thread and find an example of me calling you stupid or moron, or idiot. Or even saying your theory was stupid, moronic or idiotic. You're free to over think any play you want, I hold the right to question it whenever I want.
So in the end, GO FUCK YOURSELF.
...but we could get to my point faster if i got a little respect from anybody
People who don't understand any of the math here keep stopping by to tell me i don't know what im taking about....(not you)...like im taking a berating and im just trying to get to a question.
no your just thinking about the argument that we never should have had. It doesn't matter....the question is about something else....and it actually turns out (maybe) with my adjustments it doesn't matter if its -ev......we should still shove
I disagree with this. Well I do about K10o for sure, which was your original point. As i said explain what hands that call you are better when you have 42o than k10o and vice versa
look at the ranges we are shoving...if you go back a few pages i posted them...
when you fold kto you also fold k9o qto jto etc etc
if you shove 42o.....you also shove a few -ev hands....you make some other mistakes too....but you guarantee you are shoving kto k9o qto...and any other profitable hand.....
so im staring at a -ev hand...knowing if i shove....my range is better than one that folds kto....
i still think you will disagree but i want you to be totally on the same page first.
I love ya Darb more so your last few posts but your getting way to caught up in the math side of it and it may hurt your game more than help it and I don't want to see that happen to you.:(