what to do, what to do....

betrthanphil

PokerStars Hand #74296829644: Tournament #556010507, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (80/160) - 2012/01/22 13:37:33 ET
Table '556010507 52' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: pravdaua (10809 in chips)
Seat 2: youlovedon (9949 in chips)
Seat 3: micide (12662 in chips)
Seat 4: deaonhope (14485 in chips)
Seat 5: leandroM13 (8415 in chips)
Seat 6: BetrThanPhil (7270 in chips)
Seat 7: sat100 (5781 in chips)
Seat 8: bearsfan775 (5965 in chips)
Seat 9: Apathy123 (34927 in chips)
pravdaua: posts the ante 15
youlovedon: posts the ante 15
micide: posts the ante 15
deaonhope: posts the ante 15
leandroM13: posts the ante 15
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 15
sat100: posts the ante 15
bearsfan775: posts the ante 15
Apathy123: posts the ante 15
sat100: posts small blind 80
bearsfan775: posts big blind 160
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [Kh Jc]
Apathy123: folds
pravdaua: folds
youlovedon: folds
micide: raises 200 to 360
deaonhope: folds
leandroM13: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls 360
sat100: folds
bearsfan775: folds
*** FLOP *** [5c Qd Jd]
micide: bets 640
BetrThanPhil: calls 640
*** TURN *** [5c Qd Jd] [5h]
micide: checks
BetrThanPhil: checks
*** RIVER *** [5c Qd Jd 5h] [Ks]
micide: bets 1280
BetrThanPhil:?

hes a supernova elite who normally plays $500+ hus....dont think this overly matters, however thought id give you info I have.

kidcolt66

Check after turn.Possible trip 5's? Staright draw after at river? Just flat here? Thats my answer anyway...lol

jdAA88

I fold pre cos of reverse-implied odds with a hand like KJo, but I'm assuming it's different dynamics when you're playing hsmtts.
Don't think he checks turn with trip 5s, meh this is gross, seems like he has KQ or AT, don't know if he'd bet that big with a one-pair hand like AK or something.

trigs

as played i'm just calling river bet even though i think he just rivered us. i don't see many hands you're ahead of calling a raise on the river.

Hobbes

As played I call

Not too man 5's in his hand. Maybe he figures you for a busted flush draw.

Unknown

This may not mean anything, but if this is a SNE that is a HU reg, HU guys often dont "make" hands if you know what I mean (we all know how hard it is HU to make a hand)

He could be doing this with 3rd pair or worse, or busted flush draw.

Im not saying hes an idiot or a bad player, but from playing so many HU sng's his MTT logic could be slightly skewed in a spot like this.

philliivey

I call.

betrthanphil

Just to point out I'm never folding. this is almost never a 5. I wanted to know if anyone would jam here.

Unknown

i can't do this fast enough on my breaks....ill but together some ranges later but at got there

betrthanphil

meh I think this might be a dumb thread now lol. The only hand that can call me really is AK...that I'm beating anyways. I was really only scared of kq or A10 but even so hard for him to have a worse hand that will call unless he heros thinking i missed flush

philliivey

betrthanphil wrote: »

Just to point out I'm never folding. this is almost never a 5. I wanted to know if anyone would jam here.

I mean it could be AQ or AA could it not? That being said I don't think I am jamming unless I have seen him betting/bluffing the river a lot already.

But that's just me.:)

Unknown

betrthanphil wrote: »

meh I think this might be a dumb thread now lol. The only hand that can call me really is AK...that I'm beating anyways. I was really only scared of kq or A10 but even so hard for him to have a worse hand that will call unless he heros thinking i missed flush

and hes polarized here isn't he? doesn't have bluff catchers really

betrthanphil

As i stated Ak is gonna bet like this for sure. but dumb thread always a flat lol

edit: just thinking to much on a sunday lol

betrthanphil

he had K10 btw

jdAA88

yah I'd never be raising river lol

Richard~

I feel it's close between raising and calling. If someone can tell me why it's not close I'm all ears

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

I feel it's close between raising and calling. If someone can tell me why it's not close I'm all ears

what worse hands call?

Richard~

darbday wrote: »

what worse hands call?

all of them maybe, none of them maybe. It's all about incomplete information and that argument relies just as much on it as the "shove and hope he calls with 77" argument

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

all of them maybe, none of them maybe. It's all about incomplete information and that argument relies just as much on it as the "shove and hope he calls with 77" argument

that doesn't sound like high stakes hand reading and hu player hand reading? btp said villan was a hu pro no?

Richard~

it's complex, I can't be bothered to analyse it right now, I wasn't the one who was going to make a case for either side :P I said I'd listen to someone smarter than me

GTA Poker

I'm late to the party but I just call for the reasons you stated after the OP. His range is extremely polarized on that board and I can't see any value in a shove except vs a couple very specific hands in his range.

Richard~

He doesn't really have to be polarized too hard here

betrthanphil

Richard~ wrote: »

He doesn't really have to be polarized too hard here

But we have to ask ourselves what hands will he call our shove with that we beat....not many, there are more that have us beat then we are beating thats for sure.

Richard~

betrthanphil wrote: »

But we have to ask ourselves what hands will he call our shove with that we beat....not many, there are more that have us beat then we are beating thats for sure.

what happens if he calls QJ+ and K9+? does he have to call wider than that for us to shove?

betrthanphil

don't see him call qj, better yet really don't see him betting river with qj. also don't see him calling with K9 either but even if he did thats a very small range when we take qj out.....i don't know why you put qj+ isn't qj+ kq? or kj? which means they shouldn't be put in a range that were looking to be called by

Richard~

QJ is two pairs if I'm not mistaken. if it's just a combination question between two pair hands that we beat, top pair hands and overpairs vs the combos that beats us we can solve for the optimal play if we also quantify the value of not having to show our hand

betrthanphil

qj is 2 pair but what hands will he get called by that qj has value against? AQ maybe at best but I'm not calling wider. Any K has qj beat, he's better off checking and letting some missed draw bluff at it. Valuing not showing your hand that high can be a very dangerous thought, why should I value that here anyways?

Unknown

this is why i thought polarized:

Checking the turn tell us some things i think, that he wants to pot control or that he missed the flop. If the flop lead was for value then he could continue on the turn to get value from the same hands and draws. Btp preflop/flop flatting range must be some bw type aj, kq, kj, aq, some diamond sc's etc and some floats that missed?

After the turn gets checked back, villain will likely check call his medium hands, bluff with his air (if he has any?) and value bet hands that hit strong on the river.




But then villain showed up with KTo...what does he think you will call with?

betrthanphil

not completely true. A lot of people check to trap on the turn....kind of get you to bet one of your draws then they shove on you so you hate your life for not taking free card. happens a lot.

Vekked

GTA Poker wrote: »

I'm late to the party but I just call for the reasons you stated after the OP. His range is extremely polarized on that board and I can't see any value in a shove except vs a couple very specific hands in his range.

His range is not extremely polarized...

and I def just call, doubt he's calling worse hands often when you jam

Scotty12

I think raising is too thin here, I also think 3b or fold KJo pf