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Making simple S%^& complicated....

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
I know i can jam this but im working on different bet sizing and experimenting...sux that its a 2 dollar game for discusion but i think villain range is obvious and the money just goes in.....bad?


Poker Stars, $2.28 + $0.22 NL Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds, 50 Ante, 9 Players
=
UTG+2: 13,223
MP1: 11,428
JodaB. (MP2): 6,665
CO: 9,643
BTN: 4,243
SB: 5,649
BB: 5,683
UTG: 4,680
UTG+1: 14,481

Pre-Flop: (1,050) Adiamond.gif Kheartnormal.gif dealt to JodaB. (MP2)
3 folds, MP1 calls 400, JodaB. raises to 1,100, CO calls 1,100, 4 folds

Flop: (3,650) 4club.gif 5diamond.gif 6heartnormal.gif (2 Players)
JodaB. bets 1,000, CO raises to 8,493 and is All-In, JodaB. calls 4,515 and is All-In
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Comments

  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    jam pre......the end!
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    jam pre......the end!
    dmn....never know when to jam and when to raise.....
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    In a small game like this, Im for sure shoving <20bb stacks pre. even more so with a limp
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    In a small game like this, Im for sure shoving <20bb stacks pre. even more so with a limp
    ah ok ok..i see what im doing here.....my assumption is he folds alot to a shove.....and its not an arguement...normally i would shove its a no brainer....but what if he folds mostly to a shove...but calls a small iso raise...
  • Richard~Richard~
    raise bigger pre. Otherwise betcalling every flop might be a mistake. also, don't shove, we want action from worse hands for sure
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    You will get action lol. shove
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    raise bigger pre. Otherwise betcalling every flop might be a mistake. also, don't shove, we want action from worse hands for sure
    just makin sure you know we only have like 15 bbs.....


    but as far as bet calling any flop vs his range of pairs and ak aq etc....we are 50/50 getting giant pot odds...i think even with this small bet pre we will always be ok getting it in and he stands to make a giant mistake by really ever folding...
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    You will get action lol. shove
    im down im down im down..but were not just saying this cause its 2.50 game tho right...we'll shove in any game huh? I mean whatever i shove the shit out of this like 30 times a day just lookin for options in weird places.
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    More likely to get the action in a $2.50 game, but Im shoving without hesitation at any level. not gonna raise to 1100. now everyone knows/thinks then can call the 1100 to smash a flop and stack me. It is wrong to put chips in the middle with <20bb and leave them out there. IMO. of course it does happen. But with <16bb im never leaving chips out there
  • Richard~Richard~
    oh come on, you will NOT get action from medium to big connectors and much weaker aces by shoving. Even a 10 BB shove here will have a decent amount of fold equity against many low limit players

    I really hate shoving here without a read that he'll call wide
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »

    I really hate shoving here without a read that he'll call wide
    ya the read was he limps wide and calls tight i forgot that when i saved the hand. but i think the answer is to shove hands like k9s and j9s expecting alot of fold but to be looked up sometimes by hands like ajs or tt+......and that we should prob shove ak and the like to keep our range strong....
  • Richard~Richard~
    Maybe if villain had 3k+ hands on us, but this is not really a question of balancing. btp argues that people will give you action and I feel that people won't
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    have you tried it? not just 1 shove. like say doing it for a week or more. have you tried it and seen that you wont get calls, or are you just assuming.
  • Richard~Richard~
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    have you tried it? not just 1 shove. like say doing it for a week or more. have you tried it and seen that you wont get calls, or are you just assuming.

    dunno, guess you could call it an assumption deduced from smaller shoves and my gut feeling from situations I've been in before
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    thought so
  • Richard~Richard~
    that doesn't mean I or the low limit training videos I've watched are wrong
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    no but now it seems pointless to continue this discussion with a person making assumptions.
  • Richard~Richard~
    I am allowed to generalize my experience from smaller shoves to this slightly larger shove scenario and apply the fact that every instructor has told me that you don't overshove larger aces since it scares away action from hands we want action from. Assasinatos stacksize vid said so, as did HerchelW's low limit series and every other instructor I've heard stumple onto the topic.

    I can't just change what I think about it now just cause you think that a large enough % of low limit players make terrible calls to make this play optimal
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    nooo im not thinking they will, that would be making an assumption that we already clarified thats what your doing. Im going from experience doing it.

    I understand that you watch these instructors and listen to what they say, but why not make your own opinion and go out there and try different things to see what works. If everyone believed peoples theories blindly and never tried to discover things for themself then we would still think that the world is square. Come to your own conclusions by doing your own research.
  • Richard~Richard~
    as I said I factor in my own shoves into my opinion as well. Not so long ago I was paying my way through university playing low limit tournaments and one of the few things I could always count on was a lot of FE for my short stacks. might be different on stars but if you try this on betsson you're throwing money away

    How long has it been since you actually cared about your $5 FO tourney til you got deep? Is your low limit experience really vast enough to say that your opponent will not fold too often for this to be MORE profitable than raising it slightly bigger than you normally would to induce a call? Also, does this mean you won't shove your last 11 BB's in with 910s vs a limper cause you feel like you too often get action? you can't have it both ways
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    i would fold 910s against a limper with 11bb lol id be insane not too. and I have tonnes of HH from low limits if you want me to get them. I stake a low limit player and talk to a lot of low limit players through skype. one that I am talking to right now and confirms that you get way tooo much action which is why its harder to win to low mtts cause there is nearly 0 FE. I watch him daily. Gets snapped by k6os.
    Ive made my points in this thread dont really have to defend it further. Do what you want really has no effect on me.
  • Richard~Richard~
    well I've been making money shoving 910s with less than 11BB's too. And that's not an assumption
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    against a limper? Id love to see the HH for this.

    shoving 910s into a limper is not like horrible. but if anything it maybe a very small edge at best.
    but I dont think it would be.
  • Richard~Richard~
    I don't really have any examples of that that I can think of but I might be able to fine one where I reship 11,5 BB's with Q10o from the BB on a finaltable bubble and get a fold

    10BB's have plenty of FE at low stakes

    Edit: I can also show you how I won a $10 super turbo omaha tourney on back to back days cause they kept folding to my 4BB any four card shoves
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Im not saying 10bbs dont have FE. but if your gonna say youve been making money shoving 910s with 11bb against a limper you need to back that up. anyone can just say that lol
  • Richard~Richard~
    I'm just suprised you were suprised I was shoving light in that kind of situation lol. To me that's always been a standard exploitative move vs weak players all the way up to higher middle stakes tournaments, especially the $100 FO's on betsson ^^'
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    no one limps in the higher games so that really isnt an issue lol
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    ***** Hand History for Game 67264049126 ***** (Poker Stars)
    Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 09, 03:34:58 ET 2011
    Table 437010515 182 (Real Money)
    Seat 4 is the button
    Seat 1: parlour11 ( $8980.00 USD )
    Seat 2: candy1203 ( $2720.00 USD )
    Seat 3: hanstimm ( $4400.00 USD )
    Seat 4: JeanGrae ( $5900.00 USD )
    Seat 5: xenool ( $4145.00 USD )
    Seat 6: Com. Tomson ( $5440.00 USD )
    Seat 7: IGMathbov ( $4125.00 USD )
    Seat 8: Falar K.O. ( $9375.00 USD )
    Seat 9: 2bttreb ( $5025.00 USD )
    xenool posts small blind [$100.00 USD].
    Com. Tomson posts big blind [$200.00 USD].
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to candy1203 [ Jc Kh ]
    IGMathbov folds
    Falar K.O. folds
    2bttreb folds
    parlour11 folds
    candy1203 raises [$2720.00 USD]
    hanstimm folds
    JeanGrae raises [$5240.00 USD]
    xenool folds
    Com. Tomson folds
    JeanGrae wins $2520.00 USD
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 9d, 5s ]
    ** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
    ** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
    candy1203 shows [Jc, Kh ]
    JeanGrae shows [7c, 6c ]
    candy1203 wins $5740.00 USD from main pot
  • Richard~Richard~
    obviously you've never played the 100s on ongame ^^'

    And showing a few hands will show nothing. Unless you can show a decent sample of shoving 14-20 BB's (especially over limps) to show the calls and the folds there's no way either of us can deduce which line is optimal from a hand or two...or 10

    we'd also need to compare said sample to a similar sample achieved from raising the limps with the intention of betcalling every flop, estimate the cEV for that line factoring in both the times he folds pre, folds flop, gets it in on flop and loses and gets it in on flop and wins.

    Then you would have to standardize all the cEV's to BB's or something, compare the two sets of data and run a statistic analysis to show with a 95% confidence level or so that your average cEV is greater than that of not shoving.

    You should know that posting a few hands doesn't really show anything else than that you're making at least as many assumptions as I am
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Ill keep posting as i get them if you want lol
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