What would you do

asxn557

PokerStars Game #64893694252: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2011/07/22 1:19:13 ET
Table 'Melusina VIII' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Ducktaill ($30.45 in chips)
Seat 2: asxn557 ($67.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Hiku1 ($67.10 in chips)
Seat 5: NatalShark ($19.80 in chips)
Seat 6: ppr21 ($47.80 in chips)
Seat 7: a100da ($52 in chips)
Seat 8: LikeThisZZZ ($52.60 in chips)
Seat 9: R0BtheT0P ($46 in chips)
Hiku1: posts small blind $0.25
NatalShark: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to asxn557 [Ts Kc 6c 7s]
ppr21: folds
a100da: calls $0.50
LikeThisZZZ: raises $1 to $1.50
R0BtheT0P: folds
Ducktaill: calls $1.50
asxn557: calls $1.50
Hiku1: folds
hbtank joins the table at seat #3
NatalShark: calls $1
a100da: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [3h 4h 5c]

Unknown

get it in good with the nuts?

take the flip against the FD

i pot it and re evaluate the turn, otherwise re ship the raise

Unknown

not to mention, thats exactly the type of flop u were looking for when u called that shit with your hand.

Steve.693

fold pre-flop with garbage.

but as played try to get to the river cheap as you have no redraws and hope to fade any cards that would give someone a higher straight or a flush. With 2 holdem hands in omaha you open yourself up to spots like this more often where you are possibly getting freerolled by someone with the same straight plus redraws to the a bigger straight or a flush

compuease

Steve.693 wrote: »

but as played try to get to the river cheap

Whut? You mean not even bet the flop? As the corrected grammer daize says, pot the flop, re-evaluate the turn. Make the draws pay, if you get a blank on the turn, pot again.

The Highflyer

compuease wrote: »

Whut? You mean not even bet the flop? As the corrected grammer daize says, pot the flop, re-evaluate the turn. Make the draws pay, if you get a blank on the turn, pot again.

^^ This. Pf call is good to see a flop, w/ amount of players in the hand pot it on the flop. Turn depends on how many players are still in and if it is a blank.
What you do on the turn depends on the the amount of players still in but another pot or 3/4 pot bet is a good route if it blanks. Ovb slow down otherwise.

literation

The Highflyer wrote: »

^^ This. Pf call is good to see a flop, w/ amount of players in the hand pot it on the flop. Turn depends on how many players are still in and if it is a blank.
What you do on the turn depends on the the amount of players still in but another pot or 3/4 pot bet is a good route if it blanks. Ovb slow down otherwise.

Other than waiting for my turn to pot it, agree with these posters ^^^

T8urmoney

gettin daize wrote: »

when u called that shit with your hand.

nit # 1

Steve.693 wrote: »

fold pre-flop with garbage.

nit # 2

T8urmoney

See alot of responses, but I think how you play this depends on the action as it gets to you.

There are 6 players to the flop.....if action goes crazy in front of you, serious re-evaluation needs to be done.

Although you've flopped the nuts, it's kind of a horrible flop (oxymorons are my specialty).....no redraws, you need exactly brick brick to come....not easy.

I can justify just about anything here, even fold, depending on the action and how it gets to you.

djgolfcan

I would have called pre-flop with that hand, the rest of you are nits. Since its an Omaha cash game, the nuts on the flop are rarely the nuts by the river. Having said that, you have a chance to triple up your stack, if you lose, you can always post in the BBV section.

compuease

T8urmoney wrote: »

I can justify just about anything here, even fold, depending on the action and how it gets to you.

Our PLO expert here condones folding on the flop with the nuts....? I don't understand, if you would fold an almost perfect flop, why even call pre? There must be something I'm missing.

SuitedPair

compuease wrote: »

There must be something I'm missing.

I think what we are missing is the action in front of us here as T8 said. a couple of pot dumps and the nutz don't look so pretty any more.

but if that happens I say there are too many flush cards being held out there leaving the straight redraws to fade so I pot on top of the bets and take the action as it comes. not sure if this line makes any sense and could be a leak if T8 doesn't follow it. what say you sir?

compuease

SuitedPair wrote: »

I think what we are missing is the action in front of us here as T8 said. a couple of pot dumps and the nutz don't look so pretty any more.

I am not folding the nuts at any point in a hand.. Unless perhaps it was some weird satellite situation where I knew I could coast into a seat. Certainly not when I could double or triple up and win a tournament...

getem76

Just to be clear on this flop if Im reading the seat set up correctly, there will be a bet and call for sure on this flop if not MORE based on stacks, lets just say "shark" bets 4 bucks making it 11.50, a call from one player is 15.50 thats the pot you bet, putting in 25%, now anyone with the nuts and redraw you lose and he stacks off so be it thats poker....most other draws will probably be folding it up here, remember how big the pot so quickly and this flop NO way will the average player fold AA here and be damn near stone dead!! so theres a bet, probably KK even stacking off in these kinds of situtations, flush comes and someone is gambling, so be it.

If there is some way no bet to you, check is good but that wouldnt happen unless they were ALL nits

Milo

Would not have seen the flop with that hand. If that makes me a nit, so be it.
As played, I agree with comp, you have to make those flush draws PAY !!!

Probably going to see a c-bet from ZZZ, especially if he has the flush draw, I would pot the flop and pray the flush draws miss the turn, whereupon I would keep the pressure on again.

But that is why

hiphopopotamus

compuease wrote: »

I am not folding the nuts at any point in a hand.. Unless perhaps it was some weird satellite situation where I knew I could coast into a seat. Certainly not when I could double or triple up and win a tournament...

I think the situation he's talking about is if there's insane-o action before it gets to you and there's a really good chance one or two other players also have the nuts (so you're hoping for brick, brick to chop the pot). Plus there's the chance you're getting freerolled. Situations where it's mathematically correct to fold the nuts do come up in omaha.

compuease

hiphopopotamus wrote: »

Situations where it's mathematically correct to fold the nuts do come up in omaha.

I don't think I agree with that, especially in a cash game. You just can't be sure enough... Maybe if op showed me 6,7h but other than that no way. I can't believe the ol nit in me is arguing for no fold.

getem76

more often than not, people will bet to see where they are at c-bet, then the raise is top set looking for the draw, or just 2 diamonds....then you isolate THEM not anyone else, something with the similar hand to "ours" is the fold then not us, someone else with 76 and no diamond gives it up to the stack shove....while you have mathematically isolated the draw!....i will take that race, EVERYtime, your favourite enough, now a set and the flush draw, your SOL but thats not going to be all too often he flips that up

betrthanphil

I think fold is correct pre. Prob flatting a bet on flop, or betting if checked to me. Going to pot a bricked turn.

getem76

I do have to agree, this is probably a pre-fold as well, but you cant do much when your looking to gamble and get see a flop with any 4 cards....also a hard enough hand to put someone on...perhaps thats the high level of thinking were not looking at!

T8urmoney

compuease wrote: »

I don't think I agree with that, especially in a cash game. You just can't be sure enough... Maybe if op showed me 6,7h but other than that no way. I can't believe the ol nit in me is arguing for no fold.

I probably never fold Comp, but the math tells u to sometimes.

For example, if you're against just one hand, he has a set and flush draw.......Straight is a dog (37.5 / 62.5). Of course, heads up, I'm not folding, as you can't narrow his range to that.

The difference is when you put in other hands:

Possible hands added (one idiot, 2 legitimate..which is pretty standard):


Ah 5h 5s Qd 53.8%
6d 7c 8h 9d 7.8% (34.6% tie)
3c 4s Kh Qh 0.5%
Our hand:
Kc 6c 10s 7s 3.3% (34.6% tie)

Now, if the action comes to you, and you need to be all-in to call.......do you want to make the call?

We have $1.50 invested, $66.25 behind. Do you want to get the rest in given the odds above?

On top of that, you are most assuredly not the only person with the nuts, so, at best, you're chopping with at least one person if you hold. Not worth it IMO.

Still hard to find that fold button with the nuts though.

Unknown

Can we pretty please see how the hand played out now?

asxn557

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all the input. Here is the rest of the hand. I had position. I was tied with one guy, and the winner flopped two pair hitting the full house on the river while having the nut flush draw. As it turns out, neither was going away. I guess the lesson is to reduce the variance in these situations.


*** FLOP *** [3h 4h 5c]
NatalShark: checks
a100da: checks
LikeThisZZZ: bets $4
Ducktaill: raises $15.40 to $19.40
asxn557: raises $46.85 to $66.25 and is all-in
NatalShark: folds
a100da: folds
LikeThisZZZ: calls $47.10 and is all-in
Ducktaill: calls $9.55 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($15.15) returned to asxn557
*** TURN *** [3h 4h 5c] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [3h 4h 5c Kd] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LikeThisZZZ: shows [7c Ah 4s 5h] (a full house, Fours full of Fives)
asxn557: shows [Ts Kc 6c 7s] (a straight, Three to Seven)
LikeThisZZZ collected $44.30 from side pot
Ducktaill: shows [Th 6s Js 7h] (a straight, Three to Seven)
LikeThisZZZ collected $91.60 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $138.90 Main pot $91.60. Side pot $44.30. | Rake $3
Board [3h 4h 5c Kd 4d]
Seat 1: Ducktaill showed [Th 6s Js 7h] and lost with a straight, Three to Seven
Seat 2: asxn557 (button) showed [Ts Kc 6c 7s] and lost with a straight, Three to Seven
Seat 4: Hiku1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: NatalShark (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: ppr21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: a100da folded on the Flop
Seat 8: LikeThisZZZ showed [7c Ah 4s 5h] and won ($135.90) with a full house, Fours full of Fives
Seat 9: R0BtheT0P folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Steve.693

So like i said you were getting freerolled by duck who had the same straight and a flush draw an zzz is also a mathematical favorite with his 2pr, gutshot and and nut flush draw

you and duck had 24% equity and zzz had 52% equity

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=o&b=3h+4h+5c&d=&h=Ts+Kc+6c+7s%0D%0A7c+Ah+4s+5h%0D%0ATh+6s+Js+7h%0D%0A

Steve.693

Also without zzz in there you would have been a 2:1 dog equity wise against duck

Poker Odds Calculator (twodimes.net)

Steve.693

Just against duck you only have 30% equity with the nuts (omaha is a cruel game)

Poker Odds Calculator (twodimes.net)

Change your hand to 4 6 7 8 with the same suits and you gain 10% EV and have chance to wn outright leaving this as a breakeven play

Poker Odds Calculator (twodimes.net)

And the same hand against just duck moves you to 60/40 against

Poker Odds Calculator (twodimes.net)

Jeff Hwang sums it up well by saying think of the best (realistic) flop for a given hand and then if you would rather have something else on the same flop then you probably shouldn't be playing it.

asxn557

Thanks Steve.693 for those posts and references. My thinking in this hand was that I had position, I was calling a standard raise with implied odds, I put the first raiser on a high pair (as that's how most players play AA or KK) and was getting the right odds to call for the miracle flop that I got. I way overplayed the flop by going with the same story and not thinking that the story had changed.

getem76

the only other way to look at it as it was playing out would be to flat the 19.5 then fold it after ZZZ trys to get it in, these things happen and thats poker

asxn557

getem76 wrote: »

the only other way to look at it as it was playing out would be to flat the 19.5 then fold it after ZZZ trys to get it in, these things happen and thats poker

In hindsight, that's what I should have done. Although in a hand yesterday, I had the nut str8 on the flop, made a 70% pot bet, and got no callers. That's poker.

getem76

asxn557 wrote: »

In hindsight, that's what I should have done. Although in a hand yesterday, I had the nut str8 on the flop, made a 70% pot bet, and got no callers. That's poker.

never complain about the hands you win:) just the ones you lose HA

jontm

This is a great post, broken down well by all the participants. Basically, like Comp I prob don't fold nuts ever, but one simple point is made here, there is no nuts when it comes to redraw/draws.

I can almost 100% safely assume that players playing Omaha are aware of board texture, and can recognize that the nuts are quite possibly out there. Which leads me to assume if they are really trying to get their money in, they feel pretty good about their outs to a better hand or taking it even one step further, they know with their outs and bluff outs they can still beat beat the flopped nuts.

I will be thinking of this hand at our .25/.50 DC game, it could save me some money.