Jeff you know I love you and have a great deal of respect, but your post is soooo full of old man fail.
Just plain wrong Mole sorry. There are not many more players playing in Canada now than there was 30 years ago and in fact minor hockey registration has dropped in Canada the last couple of years. More people are playing but it is the adult population where the biggest increase is.
I don't have the exact numbers from way back but do know that in the 2009-2010 season male minor hockey registrations were 491,453. In 1999-2000 it was 461,946. However in the 70's and 80's it fell by 40-50%, primarily due to costs as I understand it, and just recently has recovered to those earlier levels. Now I know that there has been a solid growth in the US and some growth in Europe, but nothing to supply a growth from 6 to 30 teams. In fact I'm not even sure that all of Europe has as many players as Canada or even the US. For sure the NHL is diluted and if you don't agree with that you are blind (no disrespect intended). Now I agree the players are bigger and likely stronger but does that make it better? Notice I didn't say more talented. Really, honestly... I'm no Montreal fan but those Montreal teams of 30,40, 50 years ago played a real firewagon brand of hockey, nothing like today. Edmonton of the 80's was the only thing close.
Declaring this thread resolved while also thinking Shanahan was the one who made this decision is just so full of fail.
Believing that he had nothing to do with the decision when he's the one on the way in to right the ship and Campbell has done nothing but collect a paycheck is full of more fail.
Just plain wrong Mole sorry. There are not many more players playing in Canada now than there was 30 years ago and in fact minor hockey registration has dropped in Canada the last couple of years. More people are playing but it is the adult population where the biggest increase is.
I don't have the exact numbers from way back but do know that in the 2009-2010 season male minor hockey registrations were 491,453. In 1999-2000 it was 461,946. However in the 70's and 80's it fell by 40-50%, primarily due to costs as I understand it, and just recently has recovered to those earlier levels. Now I know that there has been a solid growth in the US and some growth in Europe, but nothing to supply a growth from 6 to 30 teams. In fact I'm not even sure that all of Europe has as many players as Canada or even the US. For sure the NHL is diluted and if you don't agree with that you are blind (no disrespect intended). Now I agree the players are bigger and likely stronger but does that make it better? Notice I didn't say more talented. Really, honestly... I'm no Montreal fan but those Montreal teams of 30,40, 50 years ago played a real firewagon brand of hockey, nothing like today. Edmonton of the 80's was the only thing close.
:facepalm:
So the number of players in minor hockey in Canada is the determining factor of the quality of hockey played now vs 40-50 years ago? Get real.
Look, I love that you give high regard to the Canadiens of the 60-70's but taking the cream of the crop at the time is not a direct indication of the NHL's talent comparison of then vs now. It's likely that Guy Lafleur and Larry Robinson would still have been stars in today's NHL but more than likely that even with 40 NHL teams Rick Chartraw and Bill Nyrop wouldn't even get a sniff of the AHL.
But you want to talk minor hockey? Back in the glory days you speak of, I played some minor hockey. We would get one or two games a week and usually a practice although it would be skipped at times. My nephew recently finished his regular season of AAA Major Atom (I say regular season because he's now playing spring hockey before a summer 3 on 3 league he's looking into). His regular season saw him on the ice 198 times. 198!!! Coaches these days go through training. In my day it was whoever's dad could stay sober enough Friday night to get up for Saturday morning practice that would be coach. We played a couple tournaments a year, he had one every other week, always starting on a Friday morning (unheard of 15 years ago let alone 40) including 4 out of the country.
Countries in Europe and the States may be a bit less hockey nuts, but it is still light years ahead of what it used to be.
Oh and here's an example of how the respect of yesteryear was sooo much higher than now. I love the action at 4:35 where the Flyer player drills the referee with a hit in the corner.
Oh and here's an example of how the respect of yesteryear was sooo much higher than now. I love the action at 4:35 where the Flyer player drills the referee with a hit in the corner.
lol, even the referees were tougher then! Don't get your point...
So the number of players in minor hockey in Canada is the determining factor of the quality of hockey played now vs 40-50 years ago? Get real.
Never said the number of players is a significant factor in determining individual skill level, simply that the number of players coming through the system affects the overall quality of play, ie how many skilled players per team. I would think that if we had 15-20 NHL teams now we would have a similar avg skill level per team as there was in the 60's. The US is the only country with significantly more players in minor hockey now than then. It's just not enough to stock 5 times the # of teams.
But you want to talk minor hockey? Back in the glory days you speak of, I played some minor hockey. We would get one or two games a week and usually a practice although it would be skipped at times. My nephew recently finished his regular season of AAA Major Atom (I say regular season because he's now playing spring hockey before a summer 3 on 3 league he's looking into). His regular season saw him on the ice 198 times. 198!!! Coaches these days go through training. In my day it was whoever's dad could stay sober enough Friday night to get up for Saturday morning practice that would be coach. We played a couple tournaments a year, he had one every other week, always starting on a Friday morning (unheard of 15 years ago let alone 40) including 4 out of the country.
While I do agree that current conditioning methods, etc has created more skilled hockey players, it's not 6 times as many. As for playing minor hockey, I might have played a little as well, and we weren't on the ice only on Saturdays, wouldn't have been 198 times a year for sure but likely 100-120. And we walked uphill both ways to/from the rink...
Solid brag for your nephew though, wonder if he'll even playing in 2-3 years, ever heard of burnout? That's the issue most leagues have been suffering from for the past couple of decades as a lot of these parents have pushed for more and more ice time for Johnnie. It's just plain nuts... I do know a little about this as I coached at the top level (Minor Novice all the way up to Juvenile) Milton had from the mid 80's to mid 90's and know it first hand. I got out when I saw what we were doing to our kids, and this wasn't my kids as I didn't coach my own boys. More so the collective kids. If you lived in Milton I could have been your coach, perhaps I coached a team that played against you?
Smile Mole, we are not likely to agree but on the other hand we're not that far apart. Quality of hockey at the NHL level aside, what do you think of the current state of minor hockey?
Quality of hockey at the NHL level aside, what do you think of the current state of minor hockey?
My take is it's ridiculous and spiraling out of control.
My son is 7 and nowhere good enough to play rep hockey.....THANK GOD! I just got through a year of local league where other parents were actively petitioning the coach to have their kids playing specifically with higher skilled players on the team. AT NOVICE LOCAL LEAGUE LEVEL??? We had a game every Saturday which is great, but every week we also had a 6:30 am practice on a Tuesday! That is insane for 7 year olds before school. I suggested to him at the end of the year that maybe he'd like to play basketball next winter instead of hockey and I'm actually hoping he decides to.
From what I've seen at the AAA Rep level (from a distance), the coaches might as well be professional. I can't see how the kids can go through the rigors of the season as it is and still enjoy it by the time their 15. And parents have become increasingly retarded in how they act at the rink. I actually witnessed a 10 year old take a 2 handed swing with his stick to an opponents helmet and as he was escorted off the ice the kid's father came over and gave him a pat on the back and said "that's alright you can get him next time". If I had done anything like that my dad would have given me a swat across the back of the head that would have made me seen stars. There is no doubt in my mind AAA hockey players are held in higher regard by parents, teachers, society in general and it's a dangerous situation.
I think the problem is that since pro hockey is played in many more countries and the exposure of kids is much greater now (ie great players being found from even the smallest of towns instead of missed years ago.....another argument that there is more talent these days) that everybody has a 3 degrees of separation story about someone that has played pro hockey. Everyone thinks their kid can make a living playing a game.....so much so that it's ruining it as a form of exercise and enjoyment.
Quality post Mole, and I couldn't agree more.. See, we're not so far apart..
Your story is exactly what I was seeing 15 years ago, and the principal reason I retired from coaching.. Now grandkids are just starting to get into it and I'm not sure how long I can keep my mouth shut... Thanks for being a sounding board... Just started with rep baseball (7yr olds) and I can't believe how it's starting to look like minor hockey. Must be the Jay's influence... When I played, and coached as well, baseball was just to fill in the time between hockey seasons.. No one really had pro aspiraitions, now???
Your story is exactly what I was seeing 15 years ago, and the principal reason I retired from coaching.. Now grandkids are just starting to get into it and I'm not sure how long I can keep my mouth shut... Thanks for being a sounding board... Just started with rep baseball (7yr olds) and I can't believe how it's starting to look like minor hockey. Must be the Jay's influence... When I played, and coached as well, baseball was just to fill in the time between hockey seasons.. No one really had pro aspiraitions, now???
My parents were great and always very supportive of my sporting endeavors with out ever losing their minds. As I grew up and had to deal with other peoples parents I found myself loving baseball much more than hockey since there weren't any crazy "baseball mom's" around. I am sad to hear it is infiltrating baseball as well as I have high hopes for my son being in the "bigs".
Mole and comp, your comments are one of the reasons I am glad we had a girl. With my Dad being a founder of the CMHA, and my late Father-in-law having been a long time volunteer, there is no way he would have avoided the zoo that is minor hockey. Parents are just crazed, even at the House League level. Remember reading a study that followed all the kids who registered in the MTHL at their youngest age group until they stopped playing. Of the 3,000+ who registered that particular year (forget the exact one, but it was early 80's, iirc), a whopping 3 actually signed with an NHL club, one of whom was Jamie Storr . . . yet every parent thinks they've got the next superstar under their roof.
Sadly, it's coming to all minor sports. I was talking to a Mom at one of my daughter's HS games . . . they've spent upwards of $5k a year for the last 3 years on soccer camps, hoping she'll get a scholarship in the States.
Talent will be found . . . and it is rarely manufactured.
Either way any current team (leafs included!) would contend for any 70's Stanley Cup....(if not cakewalk to it). It's true in all sports. Ever watch players from the 70's play basketball? It's like watching the current game in slow motion. Hockey is the same. The players are much more healthy, stronger, faster and cardiovascularly there is no comparison (not to mention physically larger). These guys train 365 days a year and treat their bodies like temples. (like myself)
Either way any current team (leafs included!) would contend for any 70's Stanley Cup....(if not cakewalk to it). It's true in all sports. Ever watch players from the 70's play basketball? It's like watching the current game in slow motion. Hockey is the same. The players are much more healthy, stronger, faster and cardiovascularly there is no comparison (not to mention physically larger). These guys train 365 days a year and treat their bodies like temples. (like myself)
Sorry, I disagree. No way the Leafs could beat the 70s Habs teams, the Isles of the late 70s and 80s, even the Leafs back then had a better team than they do now.
Of course, it's all just opinion. No way to ever prove it.
Everyone talking about the "good old days" forgets that these guys would play for 6 months of the year, and then head back to the lumber mill to feed their families. There's a site called like "nomoreorr.com" or something saying Bobby Orr shouldn't be in the HOF because he wouldn't do any better than the average D man now.. but it's all BS. Professional athlete is a new-ish career, and they SHOULD be busting up those old records.
.....as bad as....hmmmm....let's say the 2011 Oilers/Leafs......I think they still beat most if not all teams of the 70's, early 80's.....no way to prove of course, but I would certainly bet large sums of money if I was able.
As time passes, it takes so much more to be the best.....look at the 100m sprint......Guys are now going mid 9's.....where 30 years ago it was unheard of to break 10.
Alot has to do with equipment, training...etc....I mean, pure skill is probly equal between generations, but with technology everything about all sports now is superior from 30 years ago.....just a fact.
All that being said, I prefer the hockey from 20-30 years ago, not because of the 'watered down' league, but because of the line brawls, bench brawls.....nothing better than watching a Flames / Oilers or Habs / Nordiques playoff series of yesteryear.
And for those arguing that the league is too watered down......There were next to no players (at least compared to today) from anywhere other than North America 30 years ago. If you don't think it's come along ways in Europe since, watch a World Hockey Championships....they're as bad as Canadians and the World Juniors.
Oh, and go Bruins, fuck the Canucks (also Habs, Leafs, Oilers, not necessarily in that order)
Just remember that all those old time Hall of Famers did not get the benefit of today's equipment.
Bobby Hull's shot still went 100MPH and he was using a branch off of a tree. Gordie Howe's elbow still injured a lot of guys without the benefit of the hard plastic caps. The fast skaters back then would be the fast skaters right now even though back then each skate weighted about 7 lbs.
I hope you all didn't think that this was going to get by me. lol
Just FWIW. I don't think Rome's hit was a cheap shot . It was about 1 1/2 seconds after Horton passed the puck. If you really watch the replay you can clearly see that Horton was looking to the left were he passed and slightly down. If he had taken a quick look like most of us who have played organized hockey with contact he could have braced himself or maybe even side stepped enough to either avoid the collision or just get clipped.
Rome is not that type of player.
The officiating in this final is nothing short of brutal. Chara and Seidenberg mainly with the Bruins. 3 cross checks in front of the referee no penalty. Chara almost looks like the Butcher of Broad Street (Ron Hextall) who we all know was notorious for swinging his stick at the opponents ankles.
The Caucks have been just as bad for embellishing stuff too. Either call the game properly or put the whistles in your pockets boys and let them at it.
I really don't think you can compare the players of today compared to those of the 70's
Yes the players mentioned were all great for their era. How long the would last in today's game we will never know.
The equipment is completely different, The players now on average are 2-3 inches taller 20-50 lbs heavier and a lot faster. The conditioning is completely different than it was 40 yrs ago. They also hit a lot harder than they used to.
1 more thing. I truly believe the players today have very little if any respect for the opposition. There is also NO FEAR.
During the original 6 era and he first part of expansion players actually cared and had some respect for the other players. You have to think now. They did not wear helmets and the equipment was pretty shoddy compared to what these guys wear today.
I am tired of "he's not that type of player". It is irrelevant if he intended for his actions (in this case a body-check) to violate the rules. What matters is that he DID. In the same way that a player is expected to control his stick, he should be expected to follow the rules with regard to contact. Rome did not do that. End of story.
I look at it as if the older players had played in today's era, they would have the benefit of modern equipment and training techniques. Skill is skill no matter what so how good would they have been today? Would they have hit the weights to get stronger? Probably. Because that is the culture of the game today.
I look at it as if the older players had played in today's era, they would have the benefit of modern equipment and training techniques. Skill is skill no matter what so how good would they have been today? Would they have hit the weights to get stronger? Probably. Because that is the culture of the game today.
QFT. I would be scared out of my mind to see how badly Orr, Lafleur and Howe would kick the shit out of the record books if there prime were now.
Comments
I don't have the exact numbers from way back but do know that in the 2009-2010 season male minor hockey registrations were 491,453. In 1999-2000 it was 461,946. However in the 70's and 80's it fell by 40-50%, primarily due to costs as I understand it, and just recently has recovered to those earlier levels. Now I know that there has been a solid growth in the US and some growth in Europe, but nothing to supply a growth from 6 to 30 teams. In fact I'm not even sure that all of Europe has as many players as Canada or even the US. For sure the NHL is diluted and if you don't agree with that you are blind (no disrespect intended). Now I agree the players are bigger and likely stronger but does that make it better? Notice I didn't say more talented. Really, honestly... I'm no Montreal fan but those Montreal teams of 30,40, 50 years ago played a real firewagon brand of hockey, nothing like today. Edmonton of the 80's was the only thing close.
Check out the crosscheck to the melon of a dude with no helmet.
Its just more widely unaccepted by media these days.
YouTube - Bobby Orr vs Keith Magnuson
Declaring this thread resolved while also thinking Shanahan was the one who made this decision is just so full of fail.
Believing that he had nothing to do with the decision when he's the one on the way in to right the ship and Campbell has done nothing but collect a paycheck is full of more fail.
:facepalm:
So the number of players in minor hockey in Canada is the determining factor of the quality of hockey played now vs 40-50 years ago? Get real.
Look, I love that you give high regard to the Canadiens of the 60-70's but taking the cream of the crop at the time is not a direct indication of the NHL's talent comparison of then vs now. It's likely that Guy Lafleur and Larry Robinson would still have been stars in today's NHL but more than likely that even with 40 NHL teams Rick Chartraw and Bill Nyrop wouldn't even get a sniff of the AHL.
But you want to talk minor hockey? Back in the glory days you speak of, I played some minor hockey. We would get one or two games a week and usually a practice although it would be skipped at times. My nephew recently finished his regular season of AAA Major Atom (I say regular season because he's now playing spring hockey before a summer 3 on 3 league he's looking into). His regular season saw him on the ice 198 times. 198!!! Coaches these days go through training. In my day it was whoever's dad could stay sober enough Friday night to get up for Saturday morning practice that would be coach. We played a couple tournaments a year, he had one every other week, always starting on a Friday morning (unheard of 15 years ago let alone 40) including 4 out of the country.
Countries in Europe and the States may be a bit less hockey nuts, but it is still light years ahead of what it used to be.
YouTube - 70's flyers at leafs brawl
While I do agree that current conditioning methods, etc has created more skilled hockey players, it's not 6 times as many. As for playing minor hockey, I might have played a little as well, and we weren't on the ice only on Saturdays, wouldn't have been 198 times a year for sure but likely 100-120. And we walked uphill both ways to/from the rink...
Solid brag for your nephew though, wonder if he'll even playing in 2-3 years, ever heard of burnout? That's the issue most leagues have been suffering from for the past couple of decades as a lot of these parents have pushed for more and more ice time for Johnnie. It's just plain nuts... I do know a little about this as I coached at the top level (Minor Novice all the way up to Juvenile) Milton had from the mid 80's to mid 90's and know it first hand. I got out when I saw what we were doing to our kids, and this wasn't my kids as I didn't coach my own boys. More so the collective kids. If you lived in Milton I could have been your coach, perhaps I coached a team that played against you?
Smile Mole, we are not likely to agree but on the other hand we're not that far apart. Quality of hockey at the NHL level aside, what do you think of the current state of minor hockey?
My take is it's ridiculous and spiraling out of control.
My son is 7 and nowhere good enough to play rep hockey.....THANK GOD! I just got through a year of local league where other parents were actively petitioning the coach to have their kids playing specifically with higher skilled players on the team. AT NOVICE LOCAL LEAGUE LEVEL??? We had a game every Saturday which is great, but every week we also had a 6:30 am practice on a Tuesday! That is insane for 7 year olds before school. I suggested to him at the end of the year that maybe he'd like to play basketball next winter instead of hockey and I'm actually hoping he decides to.
From what I've seen at the AAA Rep level (from a distance), the coaches might as well be professional. I can't see how the kids can go through the rigors of the season as it is and still enjoy it by the time their 15. And parents have become increasingly retarded in how they act at the rink. I actually witnessed a 10 year old take a 2 handed swing with his stick to an opponents helmet and as he was escorted off the ice the kid's father came over and gave him a pat on the back and said "that's alright you can get him next time". If I had done anything like that my dad would have given me a swat across the back of the head that would have made me seen stars. There is no doubt in my mind AAA hockey players are held in higher regard by parents, teachers, society in general and it's a dangerous situation.
I think the problem is that since pro hockey is played in many more countries and the exposure of kids is much greater now (ie great players being found from even the smallest of towns instead of missed years ago.....another argument that there is more talent these days) that everybody has a 3 degrees of separation story about someone that has played pro hockey. Everyone thinks their kid can make a living playing a game.....so much so that it's ruining it as a form of exercise and enjoyment.
Your story is exactly what I was seeing 15 years ago, and the principal reason I retired from coaching.. Now grandkids are just starting to get into it and I'm not sure how long I can keep my mouth shut... Thanks for being a sounding board... Just started with rep baseball (7yr olds) and I can't believe how it's starting to look like minor hockey.
Imagine that, from a bitter Habs fan.
My parents were great and always very supportive of my sporting endeavors with out ever losing their minds. As I grew up and had to deal with other peoples parents I found myself loving baseball much more than hockey since there weren't any crazy "baseball mom's" around. I am sad to hear it is infiltrating baseball as well as I have high hopes for my son being in the "bigs".
I want to see Vancouver burn to the ground that it should have in round 1...figuratively of course.
Sadly, it's coming to all minor sports. I was talking to a Mom at one of my daughter's HS games . . . they've spent upwards of $5k a year for the last 3 years on soccer camps, hoping she'll get a scholarship in the States.
Talent will be found . . . and it is rarely manufactured.
Sorry, I disagree. No way the Leafs could beat the 70s Habs teams, the Isles of the late 70s and 80s, even the Leafs back then had a better team than they do now.
Of course, it's all just opinion. No way to ever prove it.
Everyone talking about the "good old days" forgets that these guys would play for 6 months of the year, and then head back to the lumber mill to feed their families. There's a site called like "nomoreorr.com" or something saying Bobby Orr shouldn't be in the HOF because he wouldn't do any better than the average D man now.. but it's all BS. Professional athlete is a new-ish career, and they SHOULD be busting up those old records.
Mark
As time passes, it takes so much more to be the best.....look at the 100m sprint......Guys are now going mid 9's.....where 30 years ago it was unheard of to break 10.
Alot has to do with equipment, training...etc....I mean, pure skill is probly equal between generations, but with technology everything about all sports now is superior from 30 years ago.....just a fact.
All that being said, I prefer the hockey from 20-30 years ago, not because of the 'watered down' league, but because of the line brawls, bench brawls.....nothing better than watching a Flames / Oilers or Habs / Nordiques playoff series of yesteryear.
And for those arguing that the league is too watered down......There were next to no players (at least compared to today) from anywhere other than North America 30 years ago. If you don't think it's come along ways in Europe since, watch a World Hockey Championships....they're as bad as Canadians and the World Juniors.
Oh, and go Bruins, fuck the Canucks (also Habs, Leafs, Oilers, not necessarily in that order)
/drunk rant
Bobby Hull's shot still went 100MPH and he was using a branch off of a tree. Gordie Howe's elbow still injured a lot of guys without the benefit of the hard plastic caps. The fast skaters back then would be the fast skaters right now even though back then each skate weighted about 7 lbs.
Just FWIW. I don't think Rome's hit was a cheap shot . It was about 1 1/2 seconds after Horton passed the puck. If you really watch the replay you can clearly see that Horton was looking to the left were he passed and slightly down. If he had taken a quick look like most of us who have played organized hockey with contact he could have braced himself or maybe even side stepped enough to either avoid the collision or just get clipped.
Rome is not that type of player.
The officiating in this final is nothing short of brutal. Chara and Seidenberg mainly with the Bruins. 3 cross checks in front of the referee no penalty. Chara almost looks like the Butcher of Broad Street (Ron Hextall) who we all know was notorious for swinging his stick at the opponents ankles.
The Caucks have been just as bad for embellishing stuff too. Either call the game properly or put the whistles in your pockets boys and let them at it.
I really don't think you can compare the players of today compared to those of the 70's
Yes the players mentioned were all great for their era. How long the would last in today's game we will never know.
The equipment is completely different, The players now on average are 2-3 inches taller 20-50 lbs heavier and a lot faster. The conditioning is completely different than it was 40 yrs ago. They also hit a lot harder than they used to.
1 more thing. I truly believe the players today have very little if any respect for the opposition. There is also NO FEAR.
During the original 6 era and he first part of expansion players actually cared and had some respect for the other players. You have to think now. They did not wear helmets and the equipment was pretty shoddy compared to what these guys wear today.
QFT. I would be scared out of my mind to see how badly Orr, Lafleur and Howe would kick the shit out of the record books if there prime were now.
It's almost 20 past Luongo . . .
Go Lucic win the Cup on Vancouver ice.
Please, cannot stnd the fans here.
Go live in T.O. for a couple of years. You'll love the Canucks fans after that.