This hand is killing me!
Hey!
I dont play poker online only live. I play 2 or 3 tourneys every week, and shark it up at the local casino cash games (1-2) maybe one night a week. Anyways here is a hand thats bugging me, - bear with me in explaining the scenario I will try my best.
Im in middle position with about $280, Villain1 is UTG with about $500.
I am dealt A10 diamonds, someone raises to $10 preflop, 4 callers pot is at $43.
Flop is Jd 4s Kd, Villan 1 raises to $60 :O, I have a good read on this kid too I put him on a solid hand at least 2 pair or a set. We talked a lot throughout the night and he kept telling me how u need to protect your hand from flushes and straight by betting.
Anyways I wussied out and folded, he showed K 4, two pair. Good fold? If i reshoved he would have called and if I missed hes putting me all in on the turn...
I dont play poker online only live. I play 2 or 3 tourneys every week, and shark it up at the local casino cash games (1-2) maybe one night a week. Anyways here is a hand thats bugging me, - bear with me in explaining the scenario I will try my best.
Im in middle position with about $280, Villain1 is UTG with about $500.
I am dealt A10 diamonds, someone raises to $10 preflop, 4 callers pot is at $43.
Flop is Jd 4s Kd, Villan 1 raises to $60 :O, I have a good read on this kid too I put him on a solid hand at least 2 pair or a set. We talked a lot throughout the night and he kept telling me how u need to protect your hand from flushes and straight by betting.
Anyways I wussied out and folded, he showed K 4, two pair. Good fold? If i reshoved he would have called and if I missed hes putting me all in on the turn...
Comments
I love folding royal draws
You sure did.
You are calling 60 into 103 (1.7:1) and your only a 3:2 dog here.
Although it's hard to tell how much was in the pot since you said villain raised on the flop but I see no flop action nor do I see who is left to act after you?
At typical tourist 1/2 I may call if we are deep enough to make it cost effective but again, it depends.
bzzzz......try again
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
990 games 0.031 secs 31,935 games/sec
Board: Kd Jd 4s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.717% 41.72% 00.00% 413 0.00 { AdTd }
Hand 1: 58.283% 58.28% 00.00% 577 0.00 { Ks4c }
60:40 = 3:2
If he has any Kx/Jx your in a coin flip (and can be ahead 51:49). Unless this dude is nittier than me, I call to see the turn.
our odds against are twice this.....
because we are not seeing a free river card.....
plus there is some reverse implied odds here.....
not a good place to be i don't think...however the best reason to call would be because of our straight outs on top of our flush.....
ats is a fold pre vs a standard player and a 3bet vs a loose player......calling pre here is a mistake and the reason this spot happened i think.....
also this starts to show an example of why abc poker in cash games is silly
fold
I assume V1 was not the initial raiser? if the flush/straight comes, is V1 going to slow down or come out betting on the turn? knowing whether this is the kind of player to pay you off, can make the decision to call easier. What about the players behind you? If you just call, are there any calling stations that might also call? Again, knowing the other players can make a difference in your decision here. Better to have the nut flush draw with another player in the hand.
If you really think this bet indicates a set, I would likely fold. If you put him on only top pair/two pair, I'm probably raising with this draw. No point calling, as indicated he is going to push on the turn anyways. A lot of times if you raise in this situation, the other OOP player will give you a free card on the turn because fear of the unknown sets in (i.e. maybe you flopped a set?). If you raise on the flop and he pushes all-in, you are likely committed unfortunately but have a lot of outs. Raise or fold.
There were 2 to act after me, I forgot to mention that. They were both instant fold. And Villain 1 is a very good play imo and he would have been able to fold if a diamond came.
After sleeping on it I came to the conclusion I should have called the $60, and if I missed on the turn and he comes out with a bet over $60, I fold. I think the $60 would have been worth it to see one more card, gotta take a gamble sometimes! I have a lot of trouble reraising preflop as someone mentioned I should do, how do I know im not against AJ+...
I asked the dealer to see the turn anyways but against house rules..
Thanks again guys! Awesome forum!
that's not a free card ???
QqQ
the players to act changes things but we'll leave it at that. Makes sure not to include the results when you post, cause it skews answer (maybe). If villain really is good then you don't want to play with a mediocre hand against him right? However he generally has to be unreal or awful to be playing k4 under the gun.....right...standard and decent players don't do this.
Its actually not worth it.....mathematically, meaning if this is how you play you lose money playing poker, not sure your level of understanding here but the chances of hitting your hand are less than the money you would make if you do......its a losing bet you only want to make winning bets
Are you saying by calling then you know he doesn't have AJ+? For one thing if you raised and he had ak or AA then he's gonna re raise you back most of the time. Also if you raise, how does he know that YOU don't have aj+.
not a good idea
thx for the post
I know hey?
more ways to win the hand vs calling, although two pair is not folding in this situation. Personally I like aggressive OOP players raising into me when I am on a draw as they will likely pay you off when you hit or they might even try to represent the draw as part of their arsenal.
yes. re raising here falls into your game im sure...however calling with ats vs and utg raise prob doesn't. but even without knowing the villain has two pair here....with the description given....raising the flop bet is not a good idea.
simply put, if we think villain might fold to a raise then its likely the best play.
but we don't gain a free card if we raise....we charge our self big time
Almost the perfect flop for you isn't it?
Are you kidding? You can never call in this spot with only 100bbish behind.
Anyone who flats to see one more card and folds on the turn is even worse.
You're actually about 75% against any two random cards, but against his 2pr, you're about 41%. With only 100bbs in the stack, you'd be foolish not to risk it here.
Push is just gambling IMO...
If you're not pushing this flop, against ANYONE, you're way too nitty imo.
Even if you know you will get called, ie 2 pr or set?
I expect a call. Hell, I want a call here!
no
Yes, you would, and you know you would.
Exactly! Why would you want a call being a 59/41 dog for a $270. flippament... The idea is to outplay weaker opponents not play flippaments with them.
Good situational analysis tho...
i'll shove this im down
yes but i never cold call ats.......i 3bet it....so i have fold equity, i'll shove this but i don't want a call ever i want a fold......the pot odds here are close to equal and i don't expect the utg raiser who over bets a 4 way flop to be weak nor do i expect him to fold....