When is hand technically dead?
Playing 2/5 at EPT Bahamas when the following situation came up. Player to my left pushes all-in and I call on the flop. I have AQ and other player has JQ on a board of Q102 K A. After the river card, I show my AQ (for two pair) and the other player does not turn over his card and pushes them over the line towards the dealer. The dealer is about to grab his cards when another player at the table says out loud,"if you have a jack you hit a straight". Player grabs his cards back, and look at the first card and then the second and turns over a jack and collects the pot (he also shows the queen). To me I was fairly certain the player intended on folding his hand face down, if not for the jackass with the big mouth.
Question: At most casinos, when is a hand considered dead:
i) when it passes the line
ii) when the dealer touches the cards (assuming they have passed the line already)
iii) when it touches the other cards in the muck (either by the dealer or the player's action)
Do casinos typically have different rules for when a hand is considered dead or is it standard in most casinos?
Question: At most casinos, when is a hand considered dead:
i) when it passes the line
ii) when the dealer touches the cards (assuming they have passed the line already)
iii) when it touches the other cards in the muck (either by the dealer or the player's action)
Do casinos typically have different rules for when a hand is considered dead or is it standard in most casinos?
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Comments
Think there are different rules for different casinos......
Similar spot I watched last weekend in a live tourney:
Player 1 bets shoves the turn...player 2 calls.....player 1 (before river is dealt) tosses his cards towards the muck (misses), he admits to houseman he tried to muck. Dealer picks up cards, turns them over, he has 1 pair and a gutshot against player 2's set, of course gutshot hits the river.
House was called, ruled in favour of player 1.....player 2 was justifiably pissed and eliminated from tourney.
Bottom line, in your situation, however unfortunate for you, they must rule in favour of the villain here. You should verbally berate 3rd player involved IMHO.
One player to a hand, people, one player to a hand . . . :mad:
If the player was going to muck, and didn't read his hand properly, I have no problem winning the pot in this situation. Really what pissed me off was the fact that another player got involved, otherwise this situation would have not come up (i.e. I would have not known that the other player mucked the best hand). He did have the best hand, and deserved to win, but I cannot control a player mucking the best hand.
Sportsmanship applies to poker too
Mark
Pot was awarded properly, as per the OP's description. Hand should NOT, however, have been influenced by the other player's festering gob . . .
Also, as has been stated many times, know the House Rules.
There is no definite answer, as it varies from room to room. Why didn't the dealer rule on this? What did the floor manager say?
In the situation you described, what were the posted House Rules?
they only had four house rules posted and I don't recall this being one of them. Next time I will call the floor to be certain.
Moving on . . .
+1
Happens all the time people misread their hands and then someone at the table yells out something about the hand. Just chaulk it up to the internet kids an their ability to live misclick.
I hope you stayed in that game, looked juicy!
Since they only host poker one week a year, and all the dealers are imported from across America, there are no consistent rules, with the exception of the four listed at the table. I figured the hand was dead, but was interested to know the actual rule if this ever comes up again. Haven't really run into this situation in the past.
Yes I stayed in the game, and eventhough it was a $1k pot, I was able to squeak out a $200 profit on the night. The players are way more aggressive than I would see in Toronto. Lots of re-raising, which is not too common where I play. They like to overbet the pot with air. Note: the German players were excellent at this.
Umm, unless the House Rules say otherwise, if your cards are facedown and touch the muck, SOP is that your hand is DEAD. You can do what you want after that, but those cards are dead.
Somebody go tell that casino they did wrong!! The Internet says so!
Mark
From Jah's description you think the hand should have been ruled dead?
Aaaahhh . . . memories. Thank, 13.
lol, god I love Mark.:D
I think if Jah's the guy that misread his hand, this thread's tone is very different.
Hand's not dead, and the play by play guy isn't a douchebag...
Mark
1) Agree
2) Agree
3) Not so much . . . You play your hand, I'll play mine. Everybody else can mind their own business.
In the groups I run, one of the rules is that the kids aren't allowed to discuss anyone that isn't in the group. It's there to prevent gossiping, and potentially having people find out that they have beef with one another. Anyways, teens being as precocious as they are, started saying "Hey, you know G.L." or you know the guy, with the (identifiable trait here). Without fail however, they'll slip and say the person's name, and myself or my partner would then give them heck. One day, I realized that although they're following the LETTER of the rule, they're not getting / understanding the spirit of it, or the reasoning behind it. I've since changed it so any mention of someone not in group isn't okay, and I've explained to them why.
This is a classic WFR violation - loopholes and excuses. In the case of this dead hand, consider the spirit of the rules if not the letter. Why is the rule re: mucked hands / hands being dead there? Well, my best guess is to avoid arguments when a person's hand is accidentally mucked, or when it's not 100% sure which cards were theirs in the case of touching other dead cards. It gives the dealers an "out" to avoid someone ranting and raving about how they had the nuts, it also gives players a layer of protection against the seedier players.
In this case, the guy made a mistake, there was no doubt as to his cards. I don't care about where the venue is, what the buy-in is, or even if someone drowns kittens. People make mistakes, and in this case, the spirit of the rule isn't violated. The guy who chimed in was just showing sportsmanlike behavior. I hope Jah dealt with it in a mature fashion.
Mark
But the guy who chimed in should not have done so. Why?
When you are dealing, do you typically announce the cards that come out on the flop, turn, and river? Do you announce possible straights or flushes?
I would hope the answer is no. If I am correct, and the answer is no, why don't you do it? Because each player is responsible for playing their own hand, even if they inadvertantly muck a winner.