180 man turbo
Shove?
PokerStars Game #50223066304: Tournament #315154886, $2.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/26 19:36:03 ET
Table '315154886 13' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: xpenginx (1180 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: dustyrotten (3075 in chips)
Seat 3: REEBS77 (1515 in chips)
Seat 4: jorgevilak3 (1720 in chips)
Seat 5: JoeWhitall (4065 in chips)
Seat 6: Flembo2127 (3135 in chips)
Seat 7: Trapstar305 (4415 in chips)
Seat 8: Wolfrasio (1975 in chips)
Seat 9: BRETTSTIR (4695 in chips)
Flembo2127: posts small blind 100
Trapstar305: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to REEBS77 [9h Ad]
Wolfrasio: folds
BRETTSTIR: folds
xpenginx: folds
dustyrotten: calls 200
REEBS77: ?
PokerStars Game #50223066304: Tournament #315154886, $2.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2010/09/26 19:36:03 ET
Table '315154886 13' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: xpenginx (1180 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: dustyrotten (3075 in chips)
Seat 3: REEBS77 (1515 in chips)
Seat 4: jorgevilak3 (1720 in chips)
Seat 5: JoeWhitall (4065 in chips)
Seat 6: Flembo2127 (3135 in chips)
Seat 7: Trapstar305 (4415 in chips)
Seat 8: Wolfrasio (1975 in chips)
Seat 9: BRETTSTIR (4695 in chips)
Flembo2127: posts small blind 100
Trapstar305: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to REEBS77 [9h Ad]
Wolfrasio: folds
BRETTSTIR: folds
xpenginx: folds
dustyrotten: calls 200
REEBS77: ?
Comments
limp range is super wide for you not to get it in.
Plus he might be retarded and fold.
Edit. Just realized its a turbo. Its supernotclose now.
ya thats fine but if this villain never limps or something then we are crushed 100% of the time....maybe if i don't have info ill shove but id like to have a reason to feel he might lay down....some guys will never lay down here...hence they always have you crushed.
I think the range it gave me for a shove was like 10s+, AJ+ maybe? dont have it with me right now.
Anyways, what range would you be shoving then guys?
Random 2 - x% of the time, I can't really say. The fact that he just limps with his stack shows extreme weakness who will fold quite often even with your stack.
mp limping a monster is like 1% chance, even less as a turbo, even less with 15bb.
Using the push bot charts, you have >0.5% of the chips, 4 left to act behind so your M has to be less than 5.4 to profitably push and that's if you are opening the pot. There is already is one limper so even though it was close between folding/pushing before, it is for sure a fold now.
Somtimes wasteful when all I get is limpers but meh, I can live with it.
Late position I'm not limping however since then I catch the guys thinking I'm stealing from late.
Thanks for the explanation Moose!
You're def misusing SNGWiz for this spot. Your shoving range should be relatively close to slightly wider than if it was an open shove (kinda depends on stats if you're hud'in). SNG Wiz doesn't really get situations where someone has done something other than push/fold before you, unless you've messed with stuff to make it do so. I'd be shoving ~22+ Ax+ K7s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo. Maybe take out the very bottom of jacks or something. You want to weight your range towards higher cards in case the limp FU calls you with T9s or JTs which sucks for when you shove suited connectors.
The bolded is a pretty bad way to look at it. If the limper limped 100% and you flipped your cards up and jammed A9 you win money, since it's so strong with this amount of hands left to act that you figure to have the best hand a ton of the time on average. Stacks behind you, and how many to act are irrelevant when your shove is unexploitable (aka, your hand is so strong given your stack that they won't get dealt a stronger hand often enough to make your shove -EV).
If we're using a HUD, sure I look up his VPIP and limp % and make an easy decision. Assuming OP isn't using one or something, I would just assume that the limp is nothing. At the $2 level this is more than a safe assumption. At nearly every level it is. That's why people's PFR deviates from their VPIP, and that's why we can make money at this game, people are too loose/passive in general, on average. Without a read, it's a mistake to assume that this limp indicates anything other than a marginal-weak hand.
I'm not sure what charts you're using but the Nash equilibrium says that you can push up to at least 6M from the hijack. Nash assumes everyone is playing perfectly vs. your range. No one's playing even close to perfectly here, so we can safely assume that A9o is definitely profitable. The limper in general should make it more appealing to jam (especially when he limps MP and not EP) since he will fold >50% of the time, or call worse hands some % of the time.
It's definitely a mistake to project your own ranges onto other random players. I'd be willing to make a rather large wager that this is more often a speculative hand than a trap on average, and it's not difficult to deduce why that is logically.
So basically the only time I should really listen to sng wiz is if I am first to enter the pot, or someone shoves ahead of me?
I just got the program 30 day trial and I am learning the ropes. Sorry if I sound Noob...
Oh and I do run HUD, but I didnt check his stats. I dont think I had HUD running in this game anyways since I had 6 games tiled and it gets in the way for me with that many at once. Plus $2 games I just assume everyone is terribad unless I have seen them multi'ing everyday.
i have a different experience here to....i guess on a default profile you can shove here profitably if an icm shows that (or can it not show that)....but sometimes you can find a read that will tell you hes setting an obvious trap...
if you knew the guy calls everytime and always have you crushed....id think this was not profitable.... you may not know this here..but it doesn't take alot of hands to spot a guy who's doing this, and they do it lots in turbos like this
the low m with the turbo blinds will obviously change this at some point but i wouldn't think its here....
That makes no sense. That is exactly what the push-bot charts calculate. The %age chance that someone behind you has a better hand (or worse) hand than you x the %age chance that they call, including the # of times you win anyways and the chips you gain to determine if it is +ev or not. Either you believe the charts are correctly calculated or you do not. If you don't, then I suppose you can do whatever you please.
This makes no sense either. You automatically seem to be assuming that just because he limped that a) he is bad and will fold or b) will call you with a worse hand. Obviously since there is a limper already, there is a greater chance of being called regardless of if he is better or worse. The push bot charts are also based on fold equity. If there are limpers, then your fold equity is less. You can't say having a limper means you can push a wider range. That's nonsensical.
The fact is he entered the pot because he likes his hand. Saying he is going to fold >50% of the time to your shove can't possibly be true.
However, please lets stop discussing that he is limping monsters, that happens so little that it shouldn't even be a consideration unless he is something like vpip20/pfr20 and suddenly limps.
premiseA: Shoving A9o here in an unopened pot is +cEV
premiseB: A9o is in fact a relatively STRONG hand and is ahead of a random villains limping range, even given his stack
Conclusion: Shoving is the way to go
proving premiseA is pretty easy, you can do that with SNG wiz and I don't think anyone would argue.
as for premiseB I used to be scared as hell as soon as I saw a limp like this, after a while though I realised that you actually need to HAVE a strong hand to trap with a strong hand. These limps happen too frequently to be mostly A10+ or 88+.
Also we can in fact ship slightly wider if we have a limper in front of us if we suspect he might be weak a) we pick up more chips when the table folds and b) our percieved range is slightly stronger since we're shipping over a limp and we can adjust to that by shipping 1 or 2 extra hands. Given our stack size in this example though I dislike shoving wider, I think we get called by random broadway type hands too often that might have us in bad shape
Its far too early to have anything to do with icm.
dammit i knew that word was wrong...but can't we use sitngowizard to calculate the lines....can't we does this since we are shove or fold?
i call sitngowiz icm, i also call liqour poker juice...
I like.
Never used sng wiz but I think to explain fairly simply stove is likely best.
I mean we are readless. There is shit in his limp range, as well as monsters.
Plug the complete range into stove. Theres already a ton of money in the pot relative to our stack. I think we find fairly quickly that we are shoving and happy.
Side note: Why cant I copy / paste text on my stove?
pretty sure thats sick
sitngowizard will calculate what range he limps with and what ranges he calls the shove with and add the fold equity to the win equity....can be done with a calculator a spare sheet and stove too but not as easy.
i think much like rich said if its a shove without the limper then if we beat the limpers call/fold range then we are good....but i'm not a9o is good enough here...this can be calculated by ....rich...whats the range you need the villain on.....
from your poker stove or on it...i can copy from there to here....
Generally yes, you can use it for a bit more maaaybe, but you need to know what you're doing. As a default I think it's mostly just jam or fold decisions, or calling a jam.
Pushbot charts can/do calculate different things, depending on how they were calculated. I have no clue what push-bot charts you're talking about so I can't say, since there are dozens out there made by all different people with different ideas about calling ranges and minimum edge requirements, etc etc. You can't just blindly follow these charts and know what is profitable since they are based on other people's assumptions, which may be incorrect.
I was referring specifically to nash equilibrium, which assumes that everyone is playing perfectly vs. one another, and any deviation (calling or pushing wider or tighter) will result in a loss of EV. It's basically the guideline for knowing your minimum shoving requirements in a given situation since people cannot adjust their strategy to gain a profit from you. A9o is profitable with our stack/position until at least an M of 6 (maybe 6.5 or something, I just rounded and found 6 as profitable and 7 as not).
You said "you have half of the table to act behind you and the blinds are larger than you". What does this mean for our decision though? We have exactly 4 people left to act behind us and a stack in which our shove will be profitable regardless of the calling ranges of our opponents behind us. The size of the stacks in the blinds don't matter, our shove is unexploitable even if they're calling perfectly knowing what our shoving range is.
I'm not making blind assumptions that he will always limp/fold, always call with a worse hand, I'm just saying a limp generally indicates a range of hands that is below his raising requirements. A lot of his range is going to contain worse hands than ours, therefore with this part of his range, his options are going to be a) fold, b) call with a worse hand.
Fold equity isn't as important with a hand like A9o as it is with 76s. Fold equity is necessary to show a profit when you're behind people's calling ranges and losing money when you get called. With a hand like A9o/KJs, the fold equity we need goes down significantly if we can add dominated hands to his calling range, since we are now shoving (at least in part) for value.
Having a limper doesn't necessarily mean we can shove a wider range, but I think at lower stakes it's a safe assumption that we can due to the fold equity we have/our relative hand strength.
Sorry if my posts were kinda of hard to understand. I made some assumptions that I believe to be true still, and kind of gave a cliffs version of why we can pretty much turn a blind eye to any other variables than our hand + stack + position when we hold a hand like A9o.
Sorry I don't know what you mean by 1% or less a weak limp.
hes referring to this.....
what.....did you use to calculate this..please...