I hate the mindset "let's raise more to protect them hands" so we'll just have to endure the tough hypothetical spots
Me too. The way the game is played now, any preflop raise between min and 3x is acceptable, any more is just spewing and often times a tell. This is mid to late stages, early stages raise it whatever.
"675 x 0,87" chips gained when everyone folds times the probability that everyone folds excluding flips
"(6150+300) x 0,13 x 0,19" Chips won when called by JJ through AA. 300 is an estimate depending on who calls you, if the BB calls it'll be a bit less and if anyone else calls a bit more, times the probability you get called times the equity in pot when calles
"-6150x0,13x0,81" chips you lose times the probability that you lose them
675x0,87+(6150+300)x0,13x0,19-6150x0,13x0,81
675x0,87 + 0,13x6150(0,19-0,81) + 300x0,13x0,19
587,25 - 495 + 7,4
100
Adding all scenarios together to figure out that we're netting about 1/3 of a BB by shoving.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
328,762,368 games 0.410 secs 801,859,434 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.210% 56.01% 00.20% 184153140 644142.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 43.790% 43.59% 00.20% 143320944 644142.00 { AQs+, AQo+ }
(6150x2 +300) x 0,56 - 6150 -675 is the extra chip gain in cases where you're flipping which is about 230 chips. To keep it simple I've ignored cases with multiple callers but it's pretty much the same.
Add to this the fact that we may get called by smaller pairs occasionally and other random hands that we crush. Hope at least I've shown that folding is out of the question. We should definitely play it somehow and I hate the mindset "let's raise more to protect them hands" so we'll just have to endure the tough hypothetical spots
oh...my...santa christ....i have not had the coffee yet:-\
I'll take the made hand every day over the draw. While some may say it is 50/50ish, that is only 50/50 if it gets to the river. On a dry flop you can bet with some confidence and play from there.
I raise 1010 here everyday. It isn't a top 10 hand for nothing.
I agree with hammer here. Id take 1010 EP over Ak anyday. Ak, AQ are probably the two worst tourney hands, as i guarentee you will bust with these hands a lot more because people over play them. 10 10 is a premium hand, you raise if you get reraise evaluate the situation. Is this guy likely to push me with a Lower PP like 88 or 99. or is he likely to push with a hand like AK AQ. then your decision becomes real easy if a 3rd person joins the hand, you can easily fold. where as if you have AK some people might call thinking they have 2 live cards to triple up, and soon enough they find they are dead wrong.
Me too. The way the game is played now, any preflop raise between min and 3x is acceptable, any more is just spewing and often times a tell. This is mid to late stages, early stages raise it whatever.
I disagree here. People are going to call regardless if its 2.5x or 4x bbs. 5xbbs might get SCs to fold, but in my experience in micro tournies raise sizes are hardly noticed.
We raise more to get more chips in the pot with your nice hand imo.
ill like the bigger bet i think because it discourages a multiway pot. but it also encourages a 3 bet all in.......i guess you're snap calling then right? i would like to argue that you should fold to the average player.
if you are called even heads up you have the three scenarios of no overcard, 1 or 2 (3 is less common). do you continuation bet any of these? if you have no ten on the flop and they fire back at you do you call with your stack (your pretty much commited by the time the turn comes unless its check check).
I disagree here. People are going to call regardless if its 2.5x or 4x bbs. 5xbbs might get SCs to fold, but in my experience in micro tournies raise sizes are hardly noticed.
We raise more to get more chips in the pot with your nice hand imo.
I disagree with this. If you are raising 5xBB or bigger people are only going to call when your beat. Say the blinds are 250/500 with a 50 ante. before anyone enters the pot there is 750 (from BB and SB) and say its a 9 man table so 450 more from antes. So there is 1200 in the pot. If you raise to about 2.5 times the BB so around 1200-1250. If you take the blinds 1 outta of 2 time you attempt to take them you are breaking even which isnt bad. But if you raising to 5xBB so to 2500. You need to win 2 of 3 time you raise preflop to be down 100 chips. Your making it a lot more difficult when raising to 5xBB. plus the average stack around when blinds are 250/500 is usually around 15000-20000. So your committing 1/6th- 1/8th of your stack just to a preflop raise, so when you get reraised your almost committed. Say you just get called. and the board misses you and it gets checked to you. the pot is likely to be around 6,000 or 7,000, your continuation bet will commit you. You take away all post flop play by raising to 5xBB. Committing your chips preflop may be how you like to play, but I doubt it will get you far in todays poker world.
Great. you're comparing my post with a completely different scenario. your argument is invalid.
I'm not saying raise 5x bbs every time to steal at all.
With TT and 20bbs we have to play. In EP I raise 3.5-4.5xbb on average to 1. discourage multi-way action
2. build a nice pot with my premium hand
Such a ridiculous raise doesn't encourage action from lesser hands than 1010 and you should know that <.< Stop acting like everyone at these limits are idiots
Great. you're comparing my post with a completely different scenario. your argument is invalid.
I'm not saying raise 5x bbs every time to steal at all.
With TT and 20bbs we have to play. In EP I raise 3.5-4.5xbb on average to 1. discourage multi-way action
2. build a nice pot with my premium hand
Im saying in no senerio is it right to raise to 5 times the BB, when with a smaller stack with you raise to 5x the BB raise to 1500 of your 6k stack, thats 25% of our stack you might as well just push it in.
Im saying in no senerio is it right to raise to 5 times the BB, when with a smaller stack with you raise to 5x the BB raise to 1500 of your 6k stack, thats 25% of our stack you might as well just push it in.
meh, now it just seems like I hate everyone but this isn't really true either. It can be extremely effective to raise about 1/3 of your stack pre and shove any flop in many cases if the stacks are right (I do think 20+ BB's is taking it a tad too far for the go 'n go though)
Such a ridiculous raise doesn't encourage action from lesser hands than 1010 and you should know that <.< Stop acting like everyone at these limits are idiots
Its true, not everyone at these limits are idiots, just most of them. like 80%. But we'll agree to disagree because we won't see eye to eye on this.
meh, now it just seems like I hate everyone but this isn't really true either. It can be extremely effective to raise about 1/3 of your stack pre and shove any flop in many cases if the stacks are right (I do think 20+ BB's is taking it a tad too far for the go 'n go though)
I thought you said you only encourage action from bigger hands?
meh, now it just seems like I hate everyone but this isn't really true either. It can be extremely effective to raise about 1/3 of your stack pre and shove any flop in many cases if the stacks are right (I do think 20+ BB's is taking it a tad too far for the go 'n go though)
Haha can you give me an example of a hand your willing to do that with, are you gonna push with any flop. I cant think of any hand to do that with. I wouldnt do it with AA as i wouldnt want to raise 5xbb and see everyone fold. KK or QQ if im gonna bet 5xbb and an A pops off on flop ill feel like a retard when i push and get called by the A. There is no hand id do it with as there are bad flops that will come and I have committed too many of my chips into the hand preflop. I dont like to commit chips pre, i prefer to try to out play post flop. but that just me, and i feel comfortable playing that style.
But again I would love to here an example of a hand you would do that with.
But again I would love to here an example of a hand you would do that with.
Used it in a few spots today. Was playing a 12 BB stack early midstages in a 20 dollar tournament on betsson. Loose passive guy limped in ep, since I feel like shoving folds out much of his range I made it about 4 BB's and shoved a queen high flop, he pretty much snapfolded and I made an extra 3 BB's...probably
I used it in the sunday 250k donkament on stars once too. had AJ against a loose opener pretty deep into the tournament. He opened and I 3bet about a third of my stack (around 3,8x his open instead of shoving) and he flatted me, flop was Q high and I shipped it in, he snapcalled me with QJ but there's no doubt I got myself into a more +EV spot with this 3bet sizing than I would've been in by shoving pre and folding out the majority of his range
thought you said you only encourage action from bigger hands?
It definitely works better against bad players who don't read stacksizes well but I'm not a big fan of doing it into a full table where noone has put a chip in the pot with a strong but not extremely strong hand
Also, in order to do this without putting yourself in an akward spot post flop you'd need to bet over 6BB's in this case, it's definitely better than folding but I still like to play this pot normally over shoving or overbetting since I feel we have a strong enough hand for it
A sidenote is that in omaha this move reduces the varience A lot and is even more effective than in hold em
Yeah I could assume that it would work better in omaha. I generally play higher buy in tourneys and I would still never do it. I dont like risking that must of my stack and letting a limper get in with a hand like 66 and then he flop a 6 and I be none the wiser. By raising smaller I keep the pot small, letting my bets on the flop being smaller. I just dont like to commit myself pre, unless Im gonna push, its just not part of my game, as I said before I prefer to out play post flop then commit preflop. But if its working for you in the lower buyins i can see it. Plus when i made my original comment I didnt really think about the early stages when blinds are small like 10/20 or 15/30. I can see it being more effective there.
I dont like risking that must of my stack and letting a limper get in with a hand like 66 and then he flop a 6 and I be none the wiser.
as I said before I prefer to out play post flop then commit preflop.
Plus when i made my original comment I didnt really think about the early stages when blinds are small like 10/20 or 15/30. I can see it being more effective there.
this is silly
if you don't want to run up against a lower set you need to raise above average otherwise you create a multiway pot, and invited small pp's.
how are you gonna out play 1 or multiple caller from early position postflop when you only have 2 outs.
lastly the point of the question was the effective stack...you have the option of raising and then calling all in.....a raise after the flop will basically commit your chips. assuming you didn't small ball preflop, which isn't a good idea ep.
its set minning and if anyone plays back at you and you don't make your set you can't possibly think your ahead.
meh, now it just seems like I hate everyone but this isn't really true either. It can be extremely effective to raise about 1/3 of your stack pre and shove any flop in many cases if the stacks are right (I do think 20+ BB's is taking it a tad too far for the go 'n go though)
yes with 20 bb's you have some poker to play. we would rather do this with qq-aa. and if we get called are we ever ahead? someone pairs the nine on the flop? AK calls rarely without hitting. i think you may as well do this with 2's
if you don't want to run up against a lower set you need to raise above average otherwise you create a multiway pot, and invited small pp's.
how are you gonna out play 1 or multiple caller from early position postflop when you only have 2 outs.
lastly the point of the question was the effective stack...you have the option of raising and then calling all in.....a raise after the flop will basically commit your chips. assuming you didn't small ball preflop, which isn't a good idea ep.
its set minning and if anyone plays back at you and you don't make your set you can't possibly think your ahead.
haha that comment i made wasnt referring to the original post, it was referring to the one made by Richard. And no by raising to 5x the bb against a limper he will still call with 66 most likely or he would of folded and not limped. and when the flop comes 236 and i have 1010 no way i can get away from it, as i have already committed most of my stack. But by betting 2-2.5x BB i can small ball the flop and have the opportunity to fold, not likely to fold on flop but possibly see the turn and get away from it there. Im just giving my opinion, I dont raise to 5x the bb unless i have a monster and there were like 3 or 4 limpers before me. with 1 limper only way i raise to 5x BB if its in first 2 levels of the tourney.
haha that comment i made wasnt referring to the original post, it was referring to the one made by Richard. And no by raising to 5x the bb against a limper he will still call with 66 most likely or he would of folded and not limped. and when the flop comes 236 and i have 1010 no way i can get away from it, as i have already committed most of my stack. But by betting 2-2.5x BB i can small ball the flop and have the opportunity to fold, not likely to fold on flop but possibly see the turn and get away from it there. Im just giving my opinion, I dont raise to 5x the bb unless i have a monster and there were like 3 or 4 limpers before me. with 1 limper only way i raise to 5x BB if its in first 2 levels of the tourney.
small ball does not play that way. small ball is favored "in position" with multiple outs. With the small bet, you invited multiple callers and have to set mine. you cannot continue to put chips in this hand without hitting a ten. you are very likely out of position, your only play is cbet and pray your opp folds, and with a small ball bet they won't fold. if you are played back at, in any point of the hand....i don't see how anyone can justify not folding without hitting one of 2 outs. even preflop.
small ball does not play that way. small ball is favored "in position" with multiple outs. With the small bet, you invited multiple callers and have to set mine. you cannot continue to put chips in this hand without hitting a ten. you are very likely out of position, your only play is cbet and pray your opp folds, and with a small ball bet they won't fold. if you are played back at, in any point of the hand....i don't see how anyone can justify not folding without hitting one of 2 outs. even preflop.
If you play like that I dont possibly see how your profitable. You missing so much. Who you are playing, how they play, have they check raised an innocent flop like q72 before. Have they been caught bluffing when check raising those. Could they be on a draw? It all depends on the situation, and of course the chip stacks. If you want to grind out at 15x the BB and instant fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10 be my guest. 20BB is not much to play with, in fact with 20 BB your basically only playing made hands, you cant afford to bluff. No hand will act the same everytime, and to say you fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10, even with 1 over card, is ridiculous. Early position or not.
haha that comment i made wasnt referring to the original post, it was referring to the one made by Richard. And no by raising to 5x the bb against a limper he will still call with 66 most likely or he would of folded and not limped. and when the flop comes 236 and i have 1010 no way i can get away from it, as i have already committed most of my stack. But by betting 2-2.5x BB i can small ball the flop and have the opportunity to fold, not likely to fold on flop but possibly see the turn and get away from it there. Im just giving my opinion, I dont raise to 5x the bb unless i have a monster and there were like 3 or 4 limpers before me. with 1 limper only way i raise to 5x BB if its in first 2 levels of the tourney.
You do realise you edge him like crazy if he calls OOP or even in position against you setmining with a pot bet behind?
I just mean that the two of you get into a situation where you have a huge edge. You'll be in a dream situation if he makes that call
I see what your saying, but thats best case senerio. Im just saying I dont feel confident commiting 25% of my chips preflop and then having to fold when a flop comes qjlow or something. Maybe Im just staying close to what the `book` says, which is if your bet is 25% or more of your stack preflop, just push it in. No shame in taking blinds, if someone wakes up with a moster, well it happens. Now with 20BB id never do that with 1010 in Ep but if your going to raise to 5xBB thats 25% of your stack, you might as well just push.
haha that comment i made wasnt referring to the original post, it was referring to the one made by richard. And no by raising to 5x the bb against a limper he will still call with 66 most likely or he would of folded and not limped. And when the flop comes 236 and i have 1010 no way i can get away from it, as i have already committed most of my stack. But by betting 2-2.5x bb i can small ball the flop and have the opportunity to fold, not likely to fold on flop but possibly see the turn and get away from it there. Im just giving my opinion, i dont raise to 5x the bb unless i have a monster and there were like 3 or 4 limpers before me. With 1 limper only way i raise to 5x bb if its in first 2 levels of the tourney.
small ball does not play that way. Small ball is favored "in position" with multiple outs. With the small bet, you invited multiple callers and have to set mine. You cannot continue to put chips in this hand without hitting a ten. You are very likely out of position, your only play is cbet and pray your opp folds, and with a small ball bet they won't fold. If you are played back at, in any point of the hand....i don't see how anyone can justify not folding without hitting one of 2 outs. Even preflop.
if you play like that i dont possibly see how your profitable. You missing so much. Who you are playing, how they play, have they check raised an innocent flop like q72 before. Have they been caught bluffing when check raising those. Could they be on a draw? It all depends on the situation, and of course the chip stacks. If you want to grind out at 15x the bb and instant fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10 be my guest. 20bb is not much to play with, in fact with 20 bb your basically only playing made hands, you cant afford to bluff. No hand will act the same everytime, and to say you fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10, even with 1 over card, is ridiculous. Early position or not.
i see what your saying, but thats best case senerio. Im just saying i dont feel confident commiting 25% of my chips preflop and then having to fold when a flop comes qjlow or something. Maybe im just staying close to what the `book` says, which is if your bet is 25% or more of your stack preflop, just push it in. No shame in taking blinds, if someone wakes up with a moster, well it happens. Now with 20bb id never do that with 1010 in ep but if your going to raise to 5xbb thats 25% of your stack, you might as well just push.
Comments
Me too. The way the game is played now, any preflop raise between min and 3x is acceptable, any more is just spewing and often times a tell. This is mid to late stages, early stages raise it whatever.
oh...my...santa christ....i have not had the coffee yet:-\
I agree with hammer here. Id take 1010 EP over Ak anyday. Ak, AQ are probably the two worst tourney hands, as i guarentee you will bust with these hands a lot more because people over play them. 10 10 is a premium hand, you raise if you get reraise evaluate the situation. Is this guy likely to push me with a Lower PP like 88 or 99. or is he likely to push with a hand like AK AQ. then your decision becomes real easy if a 3rd person joins the hand, you can easily fold. where as if you have AK some people might call thinking they have 2 live cards to triple up, and soon enough they find they are dead wrong.
I disagree here. People are going to call regardless if its 2.5x or 4x bbs. 5xbbs might get SCs to fold, but in my experience in micro tournies raise sizes are hardly noticed.
We raise more to get more chips in the pot with your nice hand imo.
if you are called even heads up you have the three scenarios of no overcard, 1 or 2 (3 is less common). do you continuation bet any of these? if you have no ten on the flop and they fire back at you do you call with your stack (your pretty much commited by the time the turn comes unless its check check).
I disagree with this. If you are raising 5xBB or bigger people are only going to call when your beat. Say the blinds are 250/500 with a 50 ante. before anyone enters the pot there is 750 (from BB and SB) and say its a 9 man table so 450 more from antes. So there is 1200 in the pot. If you raise to about 2.5 times the BB so around 1200-1250. If you take the blinds 1 outta of 2 time you attempt to take them you are breaking even which isnt bad. But if you raising to 5xBB so to 2500. You need to win 2 of 3 time you raise preflop to be down 100 chips. Your making it a lot more difficult when raising to 5xBB. plus the average stack around when blinds are 250/500 is usually around 15000-20000. So your committing 1/6th- 1/8th of your stack just to a preflop raise, so when you get reraised your almost committed. Say you just get called. and the board misses you and it gets checked to you. the pot is likely to be around 6,000 or 7,000, your continuation bet will commit you. You take away all post flop play by raising to 5xBB. Committing your chips preflop may be how you like to play, but I doubt it will get you far in todays poker world.
Great. you're comparing my post with a completely different scenario. your argument is invalid.
I'm not saying raise 5x bbs every time to steal at all.
With TT and 20bbs we have to play. In EP I raise 3.5-4.5xbb on average to 1. discourage multi-way action
2. build a nice pot with my premium hand
Such a ridiculous raise doesn't encourage action from lesser hands than 1010 and you should know that <.< Stop acting like everyone at these limits are idiots
Im saying in no senerio is it right to raise to 5 times the BB, when with a smaller stack with you raise to 5x the BB raise to 1500 of your 6k stack, thats 25% of our stack you might as well just push it in.
meh, now it just seems like I hate everyone but this isn't really true either. It can be extremely effective to raise about 1/3 of your stack pre and shove any flop in many cases if the stacks are right (I do think 20+ BB's is taking it a tad too far for the go 'n go though)
Its true, not everyone at these limits are idiots, just most of them. like 80%. But we'll agree to disagree because we won't see eye to eye on this.
I thought you said you only encourage action from bigger hands?
Haha can you give me an example of a hand your willing to do that with, are you gonna push with any flop. I cant think of any hand to do that with. I wouldnt do it with AA as i wouldnt want to raise 5xbb and see everyone fold. KK or QQ if im gonna bet 5xbb and an A pops off on flop ill feel like a retard when i push and get called by the A. There is no hand id do it with as there are bad flops that will come and I have committed too many of my chips into the hand preflop. I dont like to commit chips pre, i prefer to try to out play post flop. but that just me, and i feel comfortable playing that style.
But again I would love to here an example of a hand you would do that with.
Used it in a few spots today. Was playing a 12 BB stack early midstages in a 20 dollar tournament on betsson. Loose passive guy limped in ep, since I feel like shoving folds out much of his range I made it about 4 BB's and shoved a queen high flop, he pretty much snapfolded and I made an extra 3 BB's...probably
I used it in the sunday 250k donkament on stars once too. had AJ against a loose opener pretty deep into the tournament. He opened and I 3bet about a third of my stack (around 3,8x his open instead of shoving) and he flatted me, flop was Q high and I shipped it in, he snapcalled me with QJ but there's no doubt I got myself into a more +EV spot with this 3bet sizing than I would've been in by shoving pre and folding out the majority of his range
It definitely works better against bad players who don't read stacksizes well but I'm not a big fan of doing it into a full table where noone has put a chip in the pot with a strong but not extremely strong hand
Also, in order to do this without putting yourself in an akward spot post flop you'd need to bet over 6BB's in this case, it's definitely better than folding but I still like to play this pot normally over shoving or overbetting since I feel we have a strong enough hand for it
A sidenote is that in omaha this move reduces the varience A lot and is even more effective than in hold em
this is silly
if you don't want to run up against a lower set you need to raise above average otherwise you create a multiway pot, and invited small pp's.
how are you gonna out play 1 or multiple caller from early position postflop when you only have 2 outs.
lastly the point of the question was the effective stack...you have the option of raising and then calling all in.....a raise after the flop will basically commit your chips. assuming you didn't small ball preflop, which isn't a good idea ep.
its set minning and if anyone plays back at you and you don't make your set you can't possibly think your ahead.
yes with 20 bb's you have some poker to play. we would rather do this with qq-aa. and if we get called are we ever ahead? someone pairs the nine on the flop? AK calls rarely without hitting. i think you may as well do this with 2's
im gonna sit on the for a long time.
haha that comment i made wasnt referring to the original post, it was referring to the one made by Richard. And no by raising to 5x the bb against a limper he will still call with 66 most likely or he would of folded and not limped. and when the flop comes 236 and i have 1010 no way i can get away from it, as i have already committed most of my stack. But by betting 2-2.5x BB i can small ball the flop and have the opportunity to fold, not likely to fold on flop but possibly see the turn and get away from it there. Im just giving my opinion, I dont raise to 5x the bb unless i have a monster and there were like 3 or 4 limpers before me. with 1 limper only way i raise to 5x BB if its in first 2 levels of the tourney.
small ball does not play that way. small ball is favored "in position" with multiple outs. With the small bet, you invited multiple callers and have to set mine. you cannot continue to put chips in this hand without hitting a ten. you are very likely out of position, your only play is cbet and pray your opp folds, and with a small ball bet they won't fold. if you are played back at, in any point of the hand....i don't see how anyone can justify not folding without hitting one of 2 outs. even preflop.
If you play like that I dont possibly see how your profitable. You missing so much. Who you are playing, how they play, have they check raised an innocent flop like q72 before. Have they been caught bluffing when check raising those. Could they be on a draw? It all depends on the situation, and of course the chip stacks. If you want to grind out at 15x the BB and instant fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10 be my guest. 20BB is not much to play with, in fact with 20 BB your basically only playing made hands, you cant afford to bluff. No hand will act the same everytime, and to say you fold 1010 on any flop where you dont hit a 10, even with 1 over card, is ridiculous. Early position or not.
if...i...play...like...what?
i am now fully convinced
/thread
You do realise you edge him like crazy if he calls OOP or even in position against you setmining with a pot bet behind?
What do you mean by edging him? never heard of that.
spear spear spear:D
I just mean that the two of you get into a situation where you have a huge edge. You'll be in a dream situation if he makes that call
I see what your saying, but thats best case senerio. Im just saying I dont feel confident commiting 25% of my chips preflop and then having to fold when a flop comes qjlow or something. Maybe Im just staying close to what the `book` says, which is if your bet is 25% or more of your stack preflop, just push it in. No shame in taking blinds, if someone wakes up with a moster, well it happens. Now with 20BB id never do that with 1010 in Ep but if your going to raise to 5xBB thats 25% of your stack, you might as well just push.
no phili must keep thread alive till 'issue' is sorted...
too long!
did not read