Quick point here: It seems to me that betting smaller denomination chips creates more action/callers! This is why limit games that are structured around a 3/6 chip distribution generate more action than other formats! 30/60 limit is better (more action) with $10 chips than standard $25 & $5 casino denoms!
It's a great plan... It's just that it may be tricky to bring off successfully, and I think the risk outweighs the reward! (in this particular instance). I hate generalizations, but I'd rather win a small pot here, than lose a big one! Maybe we win the big one, but maybe we get called 3 ways on our 4.75 c-bet and that's a disaster here if we are the nitty/tight/weak/ATM discribed!
Thought provoking as always! Cheers!!
Hey, you're definitely right about the std denominations and betting $10 in two $5 chips is better than betting $9.75 for the most point ..
..I'm talking about something different, but I think you see that.
Also, I can understand why you'd want to shut down shop here, but against two opponents one with a shittier ace and another with say..a pocket Pair over the rags on the board with the ace, we're fine after betting 4.75 into 9. Worrying and pushing them out for respectively 3 and 2 outs feels like hating money to me. You also already stated that you're comfortable getting more chips in this pot on the flop..when a R/R from a villian likely means we're in worse shape than we are at the point at which I'm suggesting getting more chips in.
idk, still thinking about this hand..thanks for the feedback!
..when a R/R from a villian likely means we're in worse shape than we are at the point at which I'm suggesting getting more chips in.
Which brings up one other interesting point. If the nit knows that most of the people calling him have the ability to try to push him off the pot with a C/R on the flop, does that knowledge make representing the AK a better play?
ie. He knows that you know that he's playing tight. He knows that you know he makes a c/b here 100% of the time and either has TPTK or a high pair, and that the value of the bet indicates that he's trying to find out where he is.
Obviously if....
Level 1: He's playing tight, and
Level 2: You know he's playing tight, and
Level 3: He knows that you know he's playing tight, then...
you may try to c/r bluff, knowing that he'll lay down in this spot usually, but his motherf'n LEVEL 5 thinking will see through that and win him the hookers.
Otherwise a very interesting thread with the only issue (I think) is that it's not fully taking into account how the nit thinks everyone else is playing.
Which brings up one other interesting point. If the nit knows that most of the people calling him have the ability to try to push him off the pot with a C/R on the flop, does that knowledge make representing the AK a better play?
ie. He knows that you know that he's playing tight. He knows that you know he makes a c/b here 100% of the time and either has TPTK or a high pair, and that the value of the bet indicates that he's trying to find out where he is.
Obviously if....
Level 1: He's playing tight, and
Level 2: You know he's playing tight, and
Level 3: He knows that you know he's playing tight, then...
you may try to c/r bluff, knowing that he'll lay down in this spot usually, but his motherf'n LEVEL 5 thinking will see through that and win him the hookers.
Otherwise a very interesting thread with the only issue (I think) is that it's not fully taking into account how the nit thinks everyone else is playing.
lol, Zithal again shows his advanced knowledge and nth level thinking of a "good" nit... I've made my living using these strategies... and I don't mean at just poker either... Well done Zithal...
Which brings up one other interesting point. If the nit knows that most of the people calling him have the ability to try to push him off the pot with a C/R on the flop, does that knowledge make representing the AK a better play?
ie. He knows that you know that he's playing tight. He knows that you know he makes a c/b here 100% of the time and either has TPTK or a high pair, and that the value of the bet indicates that he's trying to find out where he is.
I think you and I are agreeing about shipping the hookers and blow sometimes when the "Jacks" $4.75 bet elicit a lagtard/higher level bluff. I think that there are players on the table against whom this would work
-I believe you and I were both in the hand and we like this style of play; but you can't deny that against this specific hero you and I both got out of the way fairly easily.
I also think that there are other players against whom this play is pretty big stretch, Eg. the person who did call, which is why I didn't really centre on this.
Definitely my mistake as this is an interesting potential tangent, that I think is probably another decent reason, "to create the illusion of FE" with a smaller bet.
Would you agree though, that this play is not going to be near the top of the bag of tricks for most of the 5 players in?
There are no semi-bluffable hands on this unconnected board.
Let's think about this..give him JJ or better aqs or better...(yes, this is the range..don't argue)
If we're this 'raising MP' 18 fold and 20 smoke us, I don't think a raise with air on an A high board is a good play here.
quoting myself just get this after Zithal's post, I think it, combined with Zithal and my folds are a reasonable argument against factoring in his suggested play too seriously.
The levels of play are decent, but I am ignoring the idea that our hero might fold ak to either of us..
I am ignoring the idea that our hero might fold ak to either of us..
he won't
...ever.
then if five others see the flop shouldn't anyone who remotely caught something call a small raise to see if they can't catch a better hand than tptk? And have a huge shot at all his money
then if five others see the flop shouldn't anyone who remotely caught something call a small raise to see if they can't catch a better hand than tptk? And have a huge shot at all his money
I think I said this a couple times already, but we're not afraid of someone calling to try to hit two Pair or trips..at even 4.75..we've made that a bad call.
This is the point, people shut down shop too easily. Your job is not to take down every pot the second your hand is ahead, it is to make money.
I think I said this a couple times already, but we're not afraid of someone calling to try to hit two Pair or trips..at even 4.75..we've made that a bad call.
This is the point, people shut down shop too easily. Your job is not to take down every pot the second your hand is ahead, it is to make money.
Calling 4.75 into 13.75 when Hero has $40+ behind is not a bad call when you get a piece...
One, you're only making a good call..on the presumption that the first caller made a bad call
Second you're presuming that you're getting two free cards, which against two people is silly.
I'm sorry, I skimmed..you said $4.75 into $13.75 when hero has $40 behind
Hero does not have $40 behind, he has less than $34, but that's irrelevant..change number one faulty presumption to "none of the 4 players behind you are coming along/have you dominated/RR now"
Ok ~$34 behind (somehow I want to give everyone $50 to start, but it $40)
Hero leads for 4.75 on the flop and all I'm saying is someone who gets a piece may call here, and it's not neccesaarily a BAD call. You want it to be someone with a weak ace... so you can extract money. Maybe it's late position holding 98s or 45s, maybe it's 2nd to act... Who knows?
But you present the scenario that we make it to the turn with one caller. Are you leading out again...??
As played, (the Hero bet $6) you only really have one option ..to check. You've told him that you have an ace and villain called anyway. (I feel like this applies to 'pot' as well)
3. we're presuming now that villian knows that hero is misrepresenting ak and is calling for it..
..So now, to play "optimally" we have to know that he knows that we are doing this and bet.
Seriously though, if we have villain on thinking second pair has a shot at the title..there are some mistakes on the turn the villian can make (ie: betting it himself) *before* we even acknowledge the other possibilities like a c/rr or caller who bets the turn himself.
That being said, I was behind with 2nd Pair and when the AK reached for chips I told him to keep it cheap so I could donate to him...I would've called for $4.75. (But it wasn't that it was great poker..just close enough that I wanted to dirty him)
I know this post is ancient but I'm at work with nothing better to do....
Lose game, 5 players, im betting that flop 90% of the time. 3/4 - pot sized bet to protect my hand. I def want to ween off the players, get bottom pair to fold etc.
Depending who is still in the hand on the turn, I may double barrel if I think they'll call, or just C/C 2 streets to induce bluffs / reduce variance / to show my checks can mean strong hands. all villian dependant.
Someone please post a hand im soooooo boooooooored!
I'm not a cg player but I guess I'd bet out 6 dollars on the flop trying to get weaker aces or something to call yet not encouraging two pair draws. If I'd make it heads up I'd probably check-call turn and if this fails I'd probably get paid off on the river. (if my opponent plays back at me on the river after checking turn I'd instacall). Otherwise I'd probably bet around 40% on the river and fold to a shove if I have enough in my stack to do so.
Comments on this line?
If I bet less on the flop I'd proceed with caution, I'd probably bet out more on the turn do redefine my hand and take it from there.
If I bet pot on the flop and still got called I'd (although trembling) also lead for a bit over half the pot on the turn since my opponent is unlikely to bluff me if I check. If I get played back at I'd have to fold, but I think this line is pretty terrible but as played I don't see any other moves.
Finally if I checked the flop and someone bet I'd call that bet and lead in to the remaining player(s) on the turn. I really hate checkraising here. Should noone bet the flop I'd lead out for 6 dollars on the turn but I'd stay aware of the face that I'm up against a lot of 6 card hands and that one of them could easily have made two pairs or better
Comments
Hey, you're definitely right about the std denominations and betting $10 in two $5 chips is better than betting $9.75 for the most point ..
..I'm talking about something different, but I think you see that.
Also, I can understand why you'd want to shut down shop here, but against two opponents one with a shittier ace and another with say..a pocket Pair over the rags on the board with the ace, we're fine after betting 4.75 into 9. Worrying and pushing them out for respectively 3 and 2 outs feels like hating money to me. You also already stated that you're comfortable getting more chips in this pot on the flop..when a R/R from a villian likely means we're in worse shape than we are at the point at which I'm suggesting getting more chips in.
idk, still thinking about this hand..thanks for the feedback!
Which brings up one other interesting point. If the nit knows that most of the people calling him have the ability to try to push him off the pot with a C/R on the flop, does that knowledge make representing the AK a better play?
ie. He knows that you know that he's playing tight. He knows that you know he makes a c/b here 100% of the time and either has TPTK or a high pair, and that the value of the bet indicates that he's trying to find out where he is.
Obviously if....
Level 1: He's playing tight, and
Level 2: You know he's playing tight, and
Level 3: He knows that you know he's playing tight, then...
you may try to c/r bluff, knowing that he'll lay down in this spot usually, but his motherf'n LEVEL 5 thinking will see through that and win him the hookers.
Otherwise a very interesting thread with the only issue (I think) is that it's not fully taking into account how the nit thinks everyone else is playing.
I think you and I are agreeing about shipping the hookers and blow sometimes when the "Jacks" $4.75 bet elicit a lagtard/higher level bluff. I think that there are players on the table against whom this would work
-I believe you and I were both in the hand and we like this style of play; but you can't deny that against this specific hero you and I both got out of the way fairly easily.
I also think that there are other players against whom this play is pretty big stretch, Eg. the person who did call, which is why I didn't really centre on this.
Definitely my mistake as this is an interesting potential tangent, that I think is probably another decent reason, "to create the illusion of FE" with a smaller bet.
Would you agree though, that this play is not going to be near the top of the bag of tricks for most of the 5 players in?
quoting myself just get this after Zithal's post, I think it, combined with Zithal and my folds are a reasonable argument against factoring in his suggested play too seriously.
The levels of play are decent, but I am ignoring the idea that our hero might fold ak to either of us..
he won't
...ever.
then if five others see the flop shouldn't anyone who remotely caught something call a small raise to see if they can't catch a better hand than tptk? And have a huge shot at all his money
I think I said this a couple times already, but we're not afraid of someone calling to try to hit two Pair or trips..at even 4.75..we've made that a bad call.
This is the point, people shut down shop too easily. Your job is not to take down every pot the second your hand is ahead, it is to make money.
Calling 4.75 into 13.75 when Hero has $40+ behind is not a bad call when you get a piece...
Poker Odds Calculator (twodimes.net)
pokenum *-h ac ks *- 9h 8h *-- ah 9s 4d*
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9s 4d Ah
cards *win * %win *lose *%lose *tie *%tie * * EV
Ks Ac *763 *77.07 * 227 *22.93 * *0 *0.00 *0.771
9h 8h *227 *22.93 * 763 *77.07 * *0 *0.00 *0.229
One, you're only making a good call..on the presumption that the first caller made a bad call
Second you're presuming that you're getting two free cards, which against two people is silly.
Hero does not have $40 behind, he has less than $34, but that's irrelevant..change number one faulty presumption to "none of the 4 players behind you are coming along/have you dominated/RR now"
Hero leads for 4.75 on the flop and all I'm saying is someone who gets a piece may call here, and it's not neccesaarily a BAD call. You want it to be someone with a weak ace... so you can extract money. Maybe it's late position holding 98s or 45s, maybe it's 2nd to act... Who knows?
But you present the scenario that we make it to the turn with one caller. Are you leading out again...??
Looks like a free card to me!
..So now, to play "optimally" we have to know that he knows that we are doing this and bet.
Seriously though, if we have villain on thinking second pair has a shot at the title..there are some mistakes on the turn the villian can make (ie: betting it himself) *before* we even acknowledge the other possibilities like a c/rr or caller who bets the turn himself.
That being said, I was behind with 2nd Pair and when the AK reached for chips I told him to keep it cheap so I could donate to him...I would've called for $4.75. (But it wasn't that it was great poker..just close enough that I wanted to dirty him)
Lose game, 5 players, im betting that flop 90% of the time. 3/4 - pot sized bet to protect my hand. I def want to ween off the players, get bottom pair to fold etc.
Depending who is still in the hand on the turn, I may double barrel if I think they'll call, or just C/C 2 streets to induce bluffs / reduce variance / to show my checks can mean strong hands. all villian dependant.
Someone please post a hand im soooooo boooooooored!
Here's a bunch for you
zing!!
Wow didnt realise tehre was 6 pages. Did a quick reply by page 2..... guess I found smoething to do!
Comments on this line?
If I bet less on the flop I'd proceed with caution, I'd probably bet out more on the turn do redefine my hand and take it from there.
If I bet pot on the flop and still got called I'd (although trembling) also lead for a bit over half the pot on the turn since my opponent is unlikely to bluff me if I check. If I get played back at I'd have to fold, but I think this line is pretty terrible but as played I don't see any other moves.
Finally if I checked the flop and someone bet I'd call that bet and lead in to the remaining player(s) on the turn. I really hate checkraising here. Should noone bet the flop I'd lead out for 6 dollars on the turn but I'd stay aware of the face that I'm up against a lot of 6 card hands and that one of them could easily have made two pairs or better