I shouldn't have to work this hard to get all the relevant info, so correct me if I'm wrong please...
I'm a known out-of-position tight-ass nit, holding AK in a six-way $9 pot vs. a bunch of loosey-goosey limers that called my raise from the blinds, and everyone has correctly guess my range to be JJ+ & AK... Good so far?... I'm leading for $9, hoping to take it down now! You expect me to c-bet here so c/r likely fails and I'm not letting 5 players see the turn for free so someone can hit bottom two!
what does he expect the other player's to do if he bets or checks? with such a tight image, he should likely check and hope someone else tries to steal the pot. If he bets, likely all will fold, not unless they are ahead (2 pair +).
I don't know if you meant that to sound as ignorant as it came off Mickey..
..but this is what I hate about this forum, everything relevant in your post except his being in the blinds, not just LP was included in or could be easily surmised from the OP. Edit: Actually you should've gotten that he was in the blinds from the OP as well, since he acted after all the limpers and first on the flop
I love how the people reading this will sit there wasting time looking for some sort of gap in the OP instead of just answering the fucking question based on the information presented. The same thing happened to Nik's thread. Live poker does not have an HH I can copy and paste. (Mickey did answer, this part does not refer to him)
And back on topic, betting pot so that someone can't hit two pair or trips is pretty lame..do you often bet 100% on 10% draws? Or just when you're in really good shape and a caller would be nice?
This obv, for you and me. But mega nits tend to see monsters under the bed.
And it would be quarter of your stack in. Little different than half.
EDIT: Post facto it's easy, but this pot has to be raised more than 3X BB pre from the blinds. Makes it much easier to bet the flop appropriately when hit and against less players and with tighter ranges. Also pot is much more palatable to villians.
what does he expect the other player's to do if he bets or checks? with such a tight image, he should likely check and hope someone else tries to steal the pot. If he bets, likely all will fold, not unless they are ahead (2 pair +).
We're betting, it is what we would normally do, so how much do you think is best? A check/call or check/raise is going to shut down the other player's shop instantly without a monster.
It makes no sense to check/call or check/raise imo.
ok i might even over bet the pot. i am cleary stating i have ak and im willing to go all in. but if they suspect aa to id go for a pot sized bet. still not sure i understand.
I would probably follow up with a bet of around $4-$5. Reason is it makes you look pretty strong trying to get other people to call, but also doesn't commit a huge amount of your stack if you get check raised. Also, it will hopefully get all the people that might be set mining (if any) to fold and won't give anyone free cards.
How many players take the turn card after my $4 bet?
Thank-you
$17 in the pot I lead out $10-$12 and try to convey as much strength as I can. I'm worried about villian 2 pairing A-rag because of the cheap flop but HAVE to be committed to this hand.
I think $4-$5 is about right, it does a lot of things.
What is your play now if:
A: you'd bet $4
B: you'd bet pot
C: you'd bet $6
And got 1 caller
A: fire another bullet a little larger than the first 1/2 pot maybe but i guess i might be all in depending on stacks....try and keep the pot small
B: sweat
C: same as A
How many players take the turn card after my $4 bet?
Thank-you
$17 in the pot I lead out $10-$12 and try to convey as much strength as I can. I'm worried about villian 2 pairing A-rag because of the cheap flop but HAVE to be committed to this hand.
I'm not sure why we're worried about 2 pair here, since we're "committed to this hand" IYO?
What is your opponent's range here?
Are we ahead or behind?
How likely or unlikely is he to catch up to us if we are ahead?
I'm not sure why we're worried about 2 pair here, since we're "committed to this hand" IYO?
What is your opponent's range here?
Are we ahead or behind?
How likely or unlikely is he to catch up to us if we are ahead?
I'm worried because it's the most likely hand that I'm getting beat with, but I'm not getting away from it regardless.
- Hoping he's holding A-paint and will come along for my bet and blank.
- Flat call of the flop bet could be a danger sign but have to think AK is ahead 90% ott. Would think a set would have already been rraised.
- Hopefully 3 outs of his off card are the only way he gets there.
Friendly 0.25/0.25 max BI $40, all players have logged dozens to hundreds of hours with each other.
About an hour and a half in, the action is obscenely loose, with one player being down about 400bb.
Most hands are raised to 1.25+ and seeing flops 3+ handed.
The lone dissenter, who has been sitting on his wallet for the entire 1.5hrs not raising, folding out of the blinds for .50c into $3 and such.. raises to $1.50 with AKss after a few limpers..
He gets 5 callers, pot is about $9:
Flop is AXX rainbow..
What is your play and why?
Grunching, // pours 4 fingers of scotch....
I'm guessing avg 175-200BB stacks? (one person in for 400bb)
Okay, playing this deep with say 2000BB on the table that means most of the players, "get it" and are playing appropriately loose and that this is a postflop skill game.
One person thinks this is a game of , "My starting hand selection is better/tighter than yours".... but this deep it isn't.
36BB in the pot with about 170bb deep stacks 6 players.... stack-to-pot ratio of about 5 .... you're right on the commitment threshold.
If you make a pot sized bet of 35 and it gets called, that makes a pot of about 110bb with about 135bb back... So you'll be pot committed ...
Six players means, You really can't get out of line... with so many players.
Betting less, say 20bb if called once, will create a 76bb pot with 150bb, giving a stack to pot ratio of 2
With AXXr there are no draws, so if this were heads up you could give a free card, but here you have 5 opponents...
Do you have position?
Can you outplay these players postflop?
If you play bad postflop you can just pot-sized-bet-commit/shove on the flop.
If you bet 40-60% then any turn bet will pot commit you.
This sounds like a good strategy, except for one problem.
You're playing with your hand face up.
People can just fold if they can't bet TPTK, and stack you when they do.
There are no draws, you will either win a small $9 pot or lose your stack.
If I were a nit, I really don't like the small bet 40% of the pot.
Especially if you're a nit who maybe overmatched postflop skillwize.
I'd try to pot commit on the flop, overbet the pot say, bet $12.
If your cbetting 100% then you gain zero information from a 40% bet.
Don't disagree with the bolded, but our mission (as I see it) is to find a way to make money despite our image. OP says check/raise is sfobv it's a nonstarter, overbet only gets called by better. The 40% bet induces any action to be found IMO. But the nit hat comes off at that point.
Not "trying" to be ignorant... perhaps it's just me! ... but I was seriously 10 posts in before "I" was clear what you're trying to do here!
i'm still trying to figure out if kristy is in the hand and knows i have ak. does everone know.....do i know if they know? do they know im not john malkovich?
Not "trying" to be ignorant... perhaps it's just me! ... but I was seriously 10 posts in before "I" was clear what you're trying to do here!
Seriously... I'll answer (b)... I check!!... explanation to follow later!
Yes, checking for pot control on a no draw board with 5 other players is fine.
If you don't have position you can bet out but if you have position you want to let your good position do the work...
The problem with betting is that ... C-betting into 5 players is madness... Is the nit one to know that bluff c betting air into 5 players is beyond absurd.
Yes, checking for pot control on a no draw board with 5 other players is fine.
I believe we've moved on to the turn vs. 1 caller now, but I understand the confusion!
If you don't have position you can bet out but if you have position you want to let your good position do the work...
The problem with betting is that ... C-betting into 5 players is madness... Is the nit one to know that bluff c betting air into 5 players is beyond absurd.
...and we're not bluff c-betting... We hit TPTK!!
In closing let me say... Given that we're nitty/tight enough that all our opponents (who are loose, but not stupid... I believe) have got us correctly on a very narrow range, and we are basically playing our hand face up, and given our pre-flop raise was bad (I.e. too small for the number of limpets), and given that it seems to be implied that we may somehow fold TPTK to a possible raise of our flop c-bet... there is only one conclusion...
We should not be sitting in this game, because we will go broke!
we are basically playing our hand face up, and given our pre-flop raise was bad (I.e. too small for the number of limpets), and given that it seems to be implied that we may somehow fold TPTK to a possible raise of our flop c-bet... there is only one conclusion...
We should not be sitting in this game, because we will go broke!
I lol'd
But the reality is that anyone can stop playing a hand bad at any point and then play it optimally from that point forward...
Here is what I think:
The answer, imo, is for him to ask himself.."how would I play jacks here?"..since we've already established that he c-bets nearly 100%: the answer is 'bet' ...the amount depends on your opponent somewhat, but it should be smallish.
Remember his opponents all think he's playing obviously.
Soo..$4.75 in smaller denomination chips imo
A few things I like about this bet size:
1. You've more than done your job v. likely villain ranges
2. At this game you're going to get called one to three times so you're often getting MORE money in the pot than what the guy actually did by betting more and only getting one caller.
3. You stay under the psychological barrier of a new chip denomination. (I know this sounds odd, particularly given that the other players at the table play much higher normally, but I believe whole-heartedly that it exists.)
*note, I'm ignoring the chance that we've been outflopped, because I think if raised here your decisions are far too situational.
So the turn:
As played, (the Hero bet $6) you only really have one option ..to check. You've told him that you have an ace and villain called anyway. (I feel like this applies to 'pot' as well)
Villain with Middling or weak ace checks behind and you bet the river solidly.
Villain who floated b/c we're nits or has two Page Ranking/set pokes us now. (I'd expect a difference in bet sizing between weak and strong..but again, pretty read dependent so let's ignore that decision)
That's a lot of writing for now, but the reason this hand interested me (and I think might interest you too) is that image or estimation of ability is not a constant.
There's a time when we're all going to be played as though we're the worst player at the table and simply recognizing the category they've put us in- can take a $6 pot.. up to $50 pot if we can get a shitty ace to call our river 'bluff'
But the reality is that anyone can stop playing a hand bad at any point and then play it optimally from that point forward...
Here is what I think:
The answer, imo, is for him to ask himself.."how would I play jacks here?"..since we've already established that he c-bets nearly 100%: the answer is 'bet' ...the amount depends on your opponent somewhat, but it should be smallish.
Remember his opponents all think he's playing obviously.
Soo..$4.75 in smaller denomination chips imo
A few things I like about this bet size:
1. You've more than done your job v. likely villain ranges
2. At this game you're going to get called one to three times so you're often getting MORE money in the pot than what the guy actually did by betting more and only getting one caller.
3. You stay under the psychological barrier of a new chip denomination. (I know this sounds odd, particularly given that the other players at the table play much higher normally, but I believe whole-heartedly that it exists.)
Quick point here: It seems to me that betting smaller denomination chips creates more action/callers! This is why limit games that are structured around a 3/6 chip distribution generate more action than other formats! 30/60 limit is better (more action) with $10 chips than standard $25 & $5 casino denoms!
*note, I'm ignoring the chance that we've been outflopped, because I think if raised here your decisions are far too situational.
So the turn:
As played, (the Hero bet $6) you only really have one option ..to check. You've told him that you have an ace and villain called anyway. (I feel like this applies to 'pot' as well)
Villain with Middling or weak ace checks behind and you bet the river solidly.
Villain who floated b/c we're nits or has two Page Ranking/set pokes us now. (I'd expect a difference in bet sizing between weak and strong..but again, pretty read dependent so let's ignore that decision)
That's a lot of writing for now, but the reason this hand interested me (and I think might interest you too) is that image or estimation of ability is not a constant.
There's a time when we're all going to be played as though we're the worst player at the table and simply recognizing the category they've put us in- can take a $6 pot.. up to $50 pot if we can get a shitty ace to call our river 'bluff'
It's a great plan... It's just that it may be tricky to bring off successfully, and I think the risk outweighs the reward! (in this particular instance). I hate generalizations, but I'd rather win a small pot here, than lose a big one! Maybe we win the big one, but maybe we get called 3 ways on our 4.75 c-bet and that's a disaster here if we are the nitty/tight/weak/ATM discribed!
Comments
I'm a known out-of-position tight-ass nit, holding AK in a six-way $9 pot vs. a bunch of loosey-goosey limers that called my raise from the blinds, and everyone has correctly guess my range to be JJ+ & AK... Good so far?... I'm leading for $9, hoping to take it down now! You expect me to c-bet here so c/r likely fails and I'm not letting 5 players see the turn for free so someone can hit bottom two!
Any callers and I'll re-evaluate on the turn!
Any raise... with half my stack in... Let's rock!
..but this is what I hate about this forum, everything relevant in your post except his being in the blinds, not just LP was included in or could be easily surmised from the OP.
Edit: Actually you should've gotten that he was in the blinds from the OP as well, since he acted after all the limpers and first on the flop
I love how the people reading this will sit there wasting time looking for some sort of gap in the OP instead of just answering the fucking question based on the information presented. The same thing happened to Nik's thread. Live poker does not have an HH I can copy and paste. (Mickey did answer, this part does not refer to him)
And back on topic, betting pot so that someone can't hit two pair or trips is pretty lame..do you often bet 100% on 10% draws? Or just when you're in really good shape and a caller would be nice?
This obv, for you and me. But mega nits tend to see monsters under the bed.
And it would be quarter of your stack in. Little different than half.
EDIT: Post facto it's easy, but this pot has to be raised more than 3X BB pre from the blinds. Makes it much easier to bet the flop appropriately when hit and against less players and with tighter ranges. Also pot is much more palatable to villians.
We're betting, it is what we would normally do, so how much do you think is best? A check/call or check/raise is going to shut down the other player's shop instantly without a monster.
It makes no sense to check/call or check/raise imo.
i thought i was using the mindset of someone of a weakish tight player, then i added new comments when i realized i get play malkavich style.
like..
A: it gives the option for our loose table that wants to play, to convince themselves we're c-betting and do something stupid.
B: it gives our future 1/2 pot c-bets teeth if we get to showdown now.
TURN
board is something like A496 rainbow..
What is your play now if:
A: you'd bet $4
B: you'd bet pot
C: you'd bet $6
And got 1 caller
Thank-you
$17 in the pot I lead out $10-$12 and try to convey as much strength as I can. I'm worried about villian 2 pairing A-rag because of the cheap flop but HAVE to be committed to this hand.
A: fire another bullet a little larger than the first 1/2 pot maybe but i guess i might be all in depending on stacks....try and keep the pot small
B: sweat
C: same as A
I'm not sure why we're worried about 2 pair here, since we're "committed to this hand" IYO?
What is your opponent's range here?
Are we ahead or behind?
How likely or unlikely is he to catch up to us if we are ahead?
I'm worried because it's the most likely hand that I'm getting beat with, but I'm not getting away from it regardless.
- Hoping he's holding A-paint and will come along for my bet and blank.
- Flat call of the flop bet could be a danger sign but have to think AK is ahead 90% ott. Would think a set would have already been rraised.
- Hopefully 3 outs of his off card are the only way he gets there.
Grunching, // pours 4 fingers of scotch....
I'm guessing avg 175-200BB stacks? (one person in for 400bb)
Okay, playing this deep with say 2000BB on the table that means most of the players, "get it" and are playing appropriately loose and that this is a postflop skill game.
One person thinks this is a game of , "My starting hand selection is better/tighter than yours".... but this deep it isn't.
36BB in the pot with about 170bb deep stacks 6 players.... stack-to-pot ratio of about 5 .... you're right on the commitment threshold.
If you make a pot sized bet of 35 and it gets called, that makes a pot of about 110bb with about 135bb back... So you'll be pot committed ...
Six players means, You really can't get out of line... with so many players.
Betting less, say 20bb if called once, will create a 76bb pot with 150bb, giving a stack to pot ratio of 2
With AXXr there are no draws, so if this were heads up you could give a free card, but here you have 5 opponents...
Do you have position?
Can you outplay these players postflop?
If you play bad postflop you can just pot-sized-bet-commit/shove on the flop.
If you bet 40-60% then any turn bet will pot commit you.
This sounds like a good strategy, except for one problem.
You're playing with your hand face up.
People can just fold if they can't bet TPTK, and stack you when they do.
There are no draws, you will either win a small $9 pot or lose your stack.
Especially if you're a nit who maybe overmatched postflop skillwize.
I'd try to pot commit on the flop, overbet the pot say, bet $12.
If your cbetting 100% then you gain zero information from a 40% bet.
Don't disagree with the bolded, but our mission (as I see it) is to find a way to make money despite our image. OP says check/raise is sfobv it's a nonstarter, overbet only gets called by better. The 40% bet induces any action to be found IMO. But the nit hat comes off at that point.
Yes... a quarter of our stack!
Not "trying" to be ignorant... perhaps it's just me!
Seriously... I'll answer (b)... I check!!... explanation to follow later!
i'm still trying to figure out if kristy is in the hand and knows i have ak. does everone know.....do i know if they know? do they know im not john malkovich?
Yes, checking for pot control on a no draw board with 5 other players is fine.
If you don't have position you can bet out but if you have position you want to let your good position do the work...
The problem with betting is that ... C-betting into 5 players is madness... Is the nit one to know that bluff c betting air into 5 players is beyond absurd.
We KNOW how the nit played it. THIS DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER. STOP TRYING TO GUESS WHAT THE NIT DID. OMFG.
Kristy is looking for the BEST, MOST PROFITABLE WAY TO PLAY THE HAND, EVEN THOUGH THE PERSON IS KNOWN TO BE A NIT.
Thank God for you, I thought I was taking crazy pills. :h:
Don't keep those pills all to yourself, share some Kristy.
Just curious is the Nit Jeff?
needs clarification, do these pills make you crazy, or keep you from being crazy?
I'd prob continue with a $10-$12 bet here (based on what I think is an $18 pot at this point if I am not mistaken). I don't like your ABC options.
I believe we've moved on to the turn vs. 1 caller now, but I understand the confusion!
...and we're not bluff c-betting... We hit TPTK!!
In closing let me say... Given that we're nitty/tight enough that all our opponents (who are loose, but not stupid... I believe) have got us correctly on a very narrow range, and we are basically playing our hand face up, and given our pre-flop raise was bad (I.e. too small for the number of limpets), and given that it seems to be implied that we may somehow fold TPTK to a possible raise of our flop c-bet... there is only one conclusion...
We should not be sitting in this game, because we will go broke!
I lol'd
But the reality is that anyone can stop playing a hand bad at any point and then play it optimally from that point forward...
Here is what I think:
The answer, imo, is for him to ask himself.."how would I play jacks here?"..since we've already established that he c-bets nearly 100%: the answer is 'bet' ...the amount depends on your opponent somewhat, but it should be smallish.
Remember his opponents all think he's playing obviously.
Soo..$4.75 in smaller denomination chips imo
A few things I like about this bet size:
1. You've more than done your job v. likely villain ranges
2. At this game you're going to get called one to three times so you're often getting MORE money in the pot than what the guy actually did by betting more and only getting one caller.
3. You stay under the psychological barrier of a new chip denomination. (I know this sounds odd, particularly given that the other players at the table play much higher normally, but I believe whole-heartedly that it exists.)
*note, I'm ignoring the chance that we've been outflopped, because I think if raised here your decisions are far too situational.
So the turn:
As played, (the Hero bet $6) you only really have one option ..to check. You've told him that you have an ace and villain called anyway. (I feel like this applies to 'pot' as well)
That's a lot of writing for now, but the reason this hand interested me (and I think might interest you too) is that image or estimation of ability is not a constant.
There's a time when we're all going to be played as though we're the worst player at the table and simply recognizing the category they've put us in- can take a $6 pot.. up to $50 pot if we can get a shitty ace to call our river 'bluff'
Quick point here: It seems to me that betting smaller denomination chips creates more action/callers! This is why limit games that are structured around a 3/6 chip distribution generate more action than other formats! 30/60 limit is better (more action) with $10 chips than standard $25 & $5 casino denoms!
It's a great plan... It's just that it may be tricky to bring off successfully, and I think the risk outweighs the reward! (in this particular instance). I hate generalizations, but I'd rather win a small pot here, than lose a big one! Maybe we win the big one, but maybe we get called 3 ways on our 4.75 c-bet and that's a disaster here if we are the nitty/tight/weak/ATM discribed!
Thought provoking as always! Cheers!!