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are you okay with this.....

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
i was in a 10k party poker tourney with 150000 chips and 38 people left. were already in the money ive pretty much doubled my buy ins from rebuy (50 bux or so altogether) buddy to my left has been making stupid all in steals with any card and hes done it again, i have next to nothing in the pot and hes all in for 150000. blinds are at 1000/2000 or less

Ive got aj suited so i KNOW i have him beat, and most likely hes holding a crappy ace. Plus after watching him make mistake after mistake I'm confident he would slow play AA and KK at leat. The thing is either way, even if hes got me dominated, if i suck out im in 3rd and a favourite to make at leat a couple k. I make the call......

I'm sure i coulda made a decent stab at the top as i am middle stacked... ...but if i take this pot i'm fairly confident ill can place 3rd or better......

is this an acceptable call?
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Comments

  • DennisGDennisG
    Your read seems sound, and the call is very likely a good one. (based on read). Perfectly acceptable. That being said... To me, this seems like a situation where yeah, you are likely ahead, but do you really need to put your stack on the line with a race? I like to have my money in when I *think* am a solid favorite preflop..or at least have some vig and fold equity.. His Q3 off is still about 30%.?

    edit- I have made this call waay too many times myself when someone keeps doing this..lol Hence my feelings on it.
  • westside8westside8
    Based on your read, easy call.
  • LanterneRougeLanterneRouge
    I'd lean to agreeing with Ihave. Two of the possible scenarios:

    :ad:jd 65.63% vs. :qc:8h 33.97%
    :ad:jd 48.65% vs. :5c:5h 50.94%

    If he's shoving massive amounts of chips pre-flop when he's weak or vulnerable, he's probably doing plenty of stupid things post-flop as well ... correct?

    AJs is a strong hand that is reasonably unlikely to be badly behind (given your read), but remember that it is still third-rate and unmade. If he's not holding an A, J or two unpaired undercards, then he's not really "dominated". If he has an underpair, you're gambling way too much for no reason. Do you see him making this type of massive shove with a small pair ... or has it always been ragged As time after time after time? (if it has, then calling becomes possible)

    Otherwise, you said it yourself. You have next to nothing invested in the pot. A 150,000 stack with blinds at 1,000/2,000 puts you at 50m. You have boatloads of time to find a spot where you can be much more sure that you are 70%-75% or better against him. Wait for donkey to bury himself when you have a pre-flop monster or a strong, made hand after the flop (/turn /river).

    The only other time I'd consider a call here is if you're not so confident in your skill level vs. the other players and feel you'll require a mountain of chips to have a chance against them.
  • UnknownUnknown
    LanterneRouge wrote: »
    I'd lean to agreeing with Ihave. Two of the possible scenarios:

    :ad:jd 65.63% vs. :qc:8h 33.97%
    :ad:jd 48.65% vs. :5c:5h 50.94%

    If he's shoving massive amounts of chips pre-flop when he's weak or vulnerable, he's probably doing plenty of stupid things post-flop as well ... correct?

    AJs is a strong hand that is reasonably unlikely to be badly behind (given your read), but remember that it is still third-rate and unmade. If he's not holding an A, J or two unpaired undercards, then he's not really "dominated". If he has an underpair, you're gambling way too much for no reason. Do you see him making this type of massive shove with a small pair ... or has it always been ragged As time after time after time? (if it has, then calling becomes possible)

    Otherwise, you said it yourself. You have next to nothing invested in the pot. A 150,000 stack with blinds at 1,000/2,000 puts you at 50m. You have boatloads of time to find a spot where you can be much more sure that you are 70%-75% or better against him. Wait for donkey to bury himself when you have a pre-flop monster or a strong, made hand after the flop (/turn /river).

    The only other time I'd consider a call here is if you're not so confident in your skill level vs. the other players and feel you'll require a mountain of chips to have a chance against them.

    Ok but remember hes going all in every few hands. he trying to steal the blinds, in the wrong way, and isn't playing any hand other than all in. The question is, knowing that you will likely win 65% against a random hand anyways, and hes probably coming in with either A (70% to me, or a small pair (cause hed slow play a high pair I think) which is a 50/50.

    i can narrow down a huge chance at a substantial chipstack to 70% or 50% most likely. So if i make the call twice, im likely to make 2k this time or next time this move comes up. Is that true?
  • UnknownUnknown
    The awesome part is I called and he flipped over A2o and he sucked me out by pairing the two. My read i think was strong enough and more than half of me felt he had ace/rag....so should i feel good about that, because it made me feel like i'm gonna have 2k coming to me soon....I had a 73% chance of putting myself in a place where im confident I can place 2nd at the final table of ten so you could say average 5th which is a heck of alot more than i paid to get in. So I'm trading an already good shot at the final 10 for a huge chance making the final 1st 2nd or 3rd knowing that from there id be going straight into gus hansen mode but not like dofus face


    here to hopping you agree ;)
    thanx
  • UnknownUnknown
    if your right then i have 2k coming to me the way i see it
  • UnknownUnknown
    Ihaveyourname wrote: »
    Your read seems sound, and the call is very likely a good one. (based on read). Perfectly acceptable. That being said... To me, this seems like a situation where yeah, you are likely ahead, but do you really need to put your stack on the line with a race? I like to have my money in when I *think* am a solid favorite preflop..or at least have some vig and fold equity.. His Q3 off is still about 30%.?

    edit- I have made this call waay too many times myself when someone keeps doing this..lol Hence my feelings on it.

    i have it better than 50/50 on a random hand so if i do this twice i will likely place 3rd or better. Imagine you got tapped on the should and some say heads or tail and you take 3rd or better? would you always ignore that...or is it a winning bet?
  • Richard~Richard~
    it's the most obvious of obvious calls against a lag tard ._. why are you even thinking about it? ^^'

    Edit: To elaborate a bit I'm taking it's a 5r or something with 500-600 players. If that's the case I'm slowly getting into closing mode here rather than just waiting passivly so I really really want to be the one to get the big fish here if he's as bad as you describe (I'll take my 50-73% here any day)
  • 88Fingers88Fingers
    Based on your read ofthe situation, I don't mind the call at all. You had your read, you understood the situation well with both outcomes.

    I honestly don't know if I would call there (instantly or not). But I've been known to call off my stack much lighter too.
  • VoodooVoodoo
    Maybe its just me but with an M of 50 and nothing invested in the pot i'd look for a better spot and fold here. Why risk you tourney life on whats probably a coinflip.

    Fold here for me.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Well based on your read, obviously right, it's an ok call despite the results. I don't want 50/50 flips, but if I KNEW he was on Ace, rag it's an instacall. However I think of it this way, I usually want 2 ways to win, 1st by winning by the river OR 2nd, by raising and getting villian to fold (equity). Since you can't reraise here, have nothing invested and have a very workable stack, I fold. Now if same villain made a raise (not pot committing), then I reraise here, giving me 2 ways to win. Thoughts on this methodology?


    edit, just reread what I wrote,,,, kinda wordy,, lol. Anyone understand?



    Great discussion tho... We need more..
  • actyperactyper
    To be honest, everybody in this thread that made a decision failed. OP did not mention a huge factor in the decision making of this hand.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    actyper wrote: »
    To be honest, everybody in this thread that made a decision failed. OP did not mention a huge factor in the decision making of this hand.
    And what might that be... Oh wise one? Since some advised a call and some advised a fold we seemed to have covered the range.. Is there some other choice we missed?
  • LanterneRougeLanterneRouge
    darbday wrote: »
    Ok but remember hes going all in every few hands...

    I'd basically want to be damn sure that he's dominated, not just beat. Facing Kx, Qx or 22-1010 is not good enough.

    If he is literally all-in every few hands (1 in 4ish or less) and you've never seen him turn over a strong one, then the likelyhood of him holding two undercards or a dominated A or J goes way up and so does my likelyhood of calling.

    I too have called people in similar situations, so I'm not necessarily against a call - but like Ihave, in hindsight I've called at times when I shouldn't have. With time and experience, the percentage of times that I fold in these situations creeps higher.

    As it was (vs A2o), you had the right read and gambling your huge m was the right play (just the wrong result).

    Best advise (call or fold) against these over-aggressive types is to take your hand off the mouse and avoid the emotional 'I'll-teach-you-ya-dumb-ass' insta-call. Use some of your clock if you have to, carefully consider the reasons to fold and make what you feel is the best mathematical play.


    ... and to address what I believe might be actyper's concern, this is all based on a sb vs. bb battle with everyone else already folded. If there are any limpers, they are super dangerous as I would definitely limp with a monster against a donk like this and wait for him to shove.
  • actyperactyper
    1. Exact stack size
    2. Position in the hand

    I missed it at first but looks like he did mention he was middle stack. Still, knowing the exact stack vs blind ratio is huge. If middle stack is still like 50bbs, I would heavily consider a fold here.

    Did villian shove UTG with 75bbs?

    or did everybody fold and you limped in the sb with AJs?
  • Richard~Richard~
    As I read it it's BvB, OP said villain was stealing blinds in the wrong way, right? And I don't think you have to take minor money jumps into account here. Besides, if you don't take him now someone else might steal your fish.

    and well...closing mode, bla bla, long term profit, bla bla, major implied odds in the new stack, bla bla, use your edge on his range etc

    Visit pokerpwnage for details on how to get it in when you're ahead of his range -> laugh when you get crushed by Q10 -> Get deep in a new tourney -> get crushed -> repeat. In the end you'll hopefully hold one time ^^'

    (I lost a 2900 dollar three way pot live yesterday against 96o that turned a straight when my money was already in pot. it sucks to be beat but remember that you're playing to make the right decisions, not to win)

    Edit: seems I misunderstood to, did he actually UTG shove that huge stack?
  • DennisGDennisG
    actyper wrote: »
    1. Exact stack size
    2. Position in the hand

    If middle stack is still like 50bbs, I would heavily consider a fold here.

    he is 150k chips with 1/2k blinds...middle stack is 75bb's

    Did villian shove UTG with 75bbs?

    This was my assumption.."buddy to my left"


    if he did limp with AJ in SB and buddy reraised all in...I insta-call.

    As I read it...utg shoves..even lagtard...I just don't like a race here..way too much tourney left...and I disagree with the pwnage comment..this isn't the first hour of a tourney where you just walk away and start another one..
  • actyperactyper
    Yeah I'm retarded read too fast and didn't notice that he had 150k, only saw the second part where it said something about the villain shoving 150k. I don't think this hand was retold correctly as the average stack in a party poker 10k rebuy tourney itm is not 75bbs. As is calling off 75bbs with AJ is just spewy
  • UnknownUnknown
    actyper wrote: »
    1. Exact stack size
    2. Position in the hand

    I missed it at first but looks like he did mention he was middle stack. Still, knowing the exact stack vs blind ratio is huge. If middle stack is still like 50bbs, I would heavily consider a fold here.

    Did villian shove UTG with 75bbs?

    or did everybody fold and you limped in the sb with AJs?

    I'm getting mixed up a little haha, but i think he was utg and i was the big blind.....but i do remember that we were the two big stacks at the table at 150k where as everyone else was at like <40. So everyone pretty much folded but it didn't matter, it was me vs him and it would make up for anything a third caller would make if he took the pot. And we had at least 50 bbs im thinking maybe even 100bbs or something.....basically i didn't need to do it and would likely place top 10 or better already.....but i could 50/50 or better secure 3rd or higher.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    As I read it it's BvB, OP said villain was stealing blinds in the wrong way, right? And I don't think you have to take minor money jumps into account here. Besides, if you don't take him now someone else might steal your fish.

    and well...closing mode, bla bla, long term profit, bla bla, major implied odds in the new stack, bla bla, use your edge on his range etc

    Visit pokerpwnage for details on how to get it in when you're ahead of his range -> laugh when you get crushed by Q10 -> Get deep in a new tourney -> get crushed -> repeat. In the end you'll hopefully hold one time ^^'

    (I lost a 2900 dollar three way pot live yesterday against 96o that turned a straight when my money was already in pot. it sucks to be beat but remember that you're playing to make the right decisions, not to win)

    Edit: seems I misunderstood to, did he actually UTG shove that huge stack?

    i don't know if i should quote all these to reply but anyways....what does his position matter? he taking any excuse to go all in. he thinks he's gus hanson but instead off calculated blind steals he thinks your supposed to go all in and take your lumps vs. steal. And again i'm sure i can make top 10, but i can get at least 50/50 to make top 3
  • UnknownUnknown
    actyper wrote: »
    Yeah I'm retarded read too fast and didn't notice that he had 150k, only saw the second part where it said something about the villain shoving 150k. I don't think this hand was retold correctly as the average stack in a party poker 10k rebuy tourney itm is not 75bbs. As is calling off 75bbs with AJ is just spewy


    I'm not looking for the exact number just the general concept of the call or fold. But we had 150,000 and there were 2 guys at 300,000. my whole table had no where near me and him in chips. I didn't look at the whole roster of people chips so much, i just knew it would catapault me into basically tied (3way) for the lead, and we would be at least double the rest. I don't know what itm is but if 150000 sounds like alot remember its a rebuy. And your last sentence just took the entire decision out of context. I'm gonna place top 10, but im getting better than 50/50 to make 3rd or better?
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Post Hand History.

    Otherwise this is a huge what if fail thread.

    I +1 Actyper either way.

    This is either a snapfold or a snapcall - depending on what actually happened.
  • actyperactyper
    Take your hand history and post it. 38 players left, already in the money, blinds at 1000/2000? Thats like level 10ish, way too early to be in the money. What your position is with 38 players left does not reflect your finish position, still tons of poker left especially with the structure that you wrote.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    Post Hand History.

    Otherwise this is a huge what if fail thread.

    I +1 Actyper either way.

    This is either a snapfold or a snapcall - depending on what actually happened.

    apologies for creatinga what if situation....how do i get hand histories? poker tracker 3?
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    darbday wrote: »
    apologies for creatinga what if situation....how do i get hand histories? poker tracker 3?

    If you have PT3 it'll be in the database.

    If you dont I assume Party has a saving function in the software.
  • DennisGDennisG
    I'm gonna place top 10, but im getting better than 50/50 to make 3rd or better?

    Here is the fail. You aren't gonna make top ten if you lose the race. You are going home.

    As you said, you had nothing invested, no need to make the call other than showing him who's boss. Your read is sound, so a call is ok here in those regards. But, given all the other circumstances (the way I read them now) there is just no need.
  • UnknownUnknown
    actyper wrote: »
    Take your hand history and post it. 38 players left, already in the money, blinds at 1000/2000? Thats like level 10ish, way too early to be in the money. What your position is with 38 players left does not reflect your finish position, still tons of poker left especially with the structure that you wrote.

    40th place was the money bubble. and to be in 3rd with 38 players left with an ultra stack, definetly makes me confident i can place top 3. I was already so high i would have been in aggresive calculated blind steal mode, but this guy was taking that away from me doing his donk all in steals. bascally with him out and me doubling up, it would be quite some time before more than a couple players could even have a shot at half my stack. I feel im a strong player and at 150k was likely to rise to top ten with at least a middle stack, but again a 50/50 on a random hand (and likely better) at making top 3. I realize there is more poker to be played, but i can get into an ultra high stack at this point, i don't think i can be beat until the final three. thanx
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    darbday wrote: »
    40th place was the money bubble. and to be in 3rd with 38 players left with an ultra stack, definetly makes me confident i can place top 3. I was already so high i would have been in aggresive calculated blind steal mode, but this guy was taking that away from me doing his donk all in steals. bascally with him out and me doubling up, it would be quite some time before more than a couple players could even have a shot at half my stack. I feel im a strong player and at 150k was likely to rise to top ten with at least a middle stack, but again a 50/50 on a random hand (and likely better) at making top 3. I realize there is more poker to be played, but i can get into an ultra high stack at this point, i don't think i can be beat until the final three. thanx

    Youve obv. never been chipleader on the FT bubble only to spew it all away and not make the FT.

    Besides the point - but its not something I would try defending if I were you. Chipleader (even by a very large amount) with 40 left does not even come close to guaranteeing a top 3 finish.

    Now back on track. Post HH Plz.
  • DennisGDennisG
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    Youve obv. never been chipleader on the FT bubble only to spew it all away and not make the FT.

    Have you been watching me play?

    Besides the point - but its not something I would try defending if I were you. Chipleader (even by a very large amount) with 40 left does not even come close to guaranteeing a top 3 finish.

    Now back on track. Post HH Plz.

    +1
  • UnknownUnknown
    Ihaveyourname wrote: »
    Here is the fail. You aren't gonna make top ten if you lose the race. You are going home.

    As you said, you had nothing invested, no need to make the call other than showing him who's boss. Your read is sound, so a call is ok here in those regards. But, given all the other circumstances (the way I read them now) there is just no need.

    I always lay this down, in any other time where i think i can double up for 50/50. but this time the way thing are, i strongly feel doubling up will make me 2k. And I have a strong thought that this guy saw a weak ace and went all in. I'm not arguing just exlporing, but im confident that this is 50/50 at worst for about $2k. but at the stack i have im likely to make better than 10th anyways.

    thanks all, ive learnt from the thread alone already
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