Do you really expect this to sell out? If you do I would estimate about 2.5-3M chips in play including rebuys and add-on. That means the tournament would end with a BB of say around the 25-30K mark. With the blind structure you posted, increasing at the same rate, the tournament will take 7hrs+ to play out. Add any breaks into that. Are you planning for that in terms of venue/staff, etc? Word to the wise, make sure you get an experienced tournament director who has directed large field tournaments to have a look at your structure. There are a number of them here. Don't be surprised on the day of tournament, upset poker players can be hard to deal with...
Note that above are estimates only based on what you have provided so far.
edit to add in
**********
Not sure how much experience you have in running large tournaments but if not this link may help you.
I truely hope everything works out for you and your tournament but I have to be honest with you and everyone reading this thread, my spidy senses are tingling.
Just suggesting you are not paying out on the night of the tourney is very odd.
Then reading this...
All prizes must be accepted as awarded. No substitutions are available,
except at the sole discretion of the Promoter, which reserves the right in its
sole discretion to substitute any Prize with a Prize of equal or greater value
and/or specification
...continues to add. I can just see it now "here is a night at a local motel valued at $500", sorry no cash available...take it or leave it.
I think the concept is great. And although $300 per player is not cheap for an unknown entity running a poker tournament, and it is kind of steep on the % taken but what if you don't sell out? What is the actual per centage going to the prize pool?
I would be interested in knowing how much is going towards the people running this event and how much is going to the charity because the cost amounts you are suggesting for particular segments of the nights are amusingly high.
Lots of questions are not being asked and some answers are not on point.
Like I already wrote, I hope it works out but just saying...
Thank you for your comments and interest. The cost of the total night is $250, not $300.. All prizes are CASH prizes. There is no vouchers, or coupons.
First Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$12,000.00, or a seat for a World Poker Tour tournament event, valued at approximately US$10,000.00, at the Promoter's sole discretion. The First place finisher will also receive the official Rounders Cup Ruby Ring valued at approximately C$200.00. In addition to these Prizes, the First Place finisher will have his or her name engraved upon the official Tournament trophy, the Rounders Cup;
Second Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$6,000.00,
Third Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$4,000.00;
Fourth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$3,000.00;
Fifth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$2,000.00;
Sixth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$1,750.00;
Seventh Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$1,500.00;
Eighth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$1,250.00;
Ninth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$1,000.00;
Tenth Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$750.00;
Eleventh to Twentieth Places: Each wins one of ten (10) cash Prizes of C$500.00; and
Twenty-First to Thirtieth Places: Each wins one of ten (10) cash Prizes of C$250.00.
The below refers to only the "Ruby Ring", at this time as it is the only prize that isn't cash. Please note on the above that the prizes are called " One (1) cash Prize of" It does not state in brackets that there is a cash equivalent...
These are general legal terms to allow the organizers to add non- cash items to the prize pool.
There is a guaranteed prize pool of $40,000 cash.
The organizers fully intend to provide checks to all winners the day of the event. There are some legal issues that will hopefully be resolved in the near future. I will keep you updated on the progress.
As stated before, this is a live tournament at a classy location. Players will enjoy themselves and receive great value.
Each guest will receive 2 free drinks.
$30 cost
Guests will also get free 3 course meal (appetizers, dinner, desert.)
$80 cost
Comedians and entertainment
$50-$60 cost
An evening at the Four Seasons
[FONT="]
[/FONT] A chance 1/300 to win $12000
$??
The chance to help out less fortunate kids
Priceless!!
Guest celebrities like Sugar Sammy, Jian Ghomeshi, Chris Tessaro and more!!
My name is Tom. I hope to see you at the event. I understand that your being cautious, but this tournament is the real deal.
The event organizers intend to hold several tournaments in Toronto, and across Canada.
Toronto was targeted as the first place to hold the inaugural event due to the vast amount of poker players.
It is very important to the organizers that every player that participates in the tournament has an enjoyable experience to insure the success of future events.
All your comments and views are appreciated and voiced to the organizers.
First Place: One (1) cash Prize of C$12,000.00, or a seat for a World Poker Tour tournament event, valued at approximately US$10,000.00, at the Promoter's sole discretion.
Still have a question regarding this statement, what does Promoter's sole discretion mean?
Also as far as cost goes, I gather that the initial $150. goes towards paying for the food, entertainment, etc as well as a certain portion to the charity, correct? Then the additional $100. at the door goes for your initial 2000 chips? I think that most poker players would count on an avg of 1 rebuy and the addon to seriously contend for winning this thing. Thus from a strictly business perspective, (disregarding donating money to the charity which I have no issues with) it is a cost of $150. (dinner/show,etc) + $100 (initial 2000) + $100. (1 rebuy) + $100. (addon)) or likely $450 on avg per poker player. The poker part alone should raise 300 x $300 = $90,000. in revenue, perhaps a little less if some people don't rebuy or add on. Now since you are only paying out $40,000 that seems a little stiff in rake. Thinking strictly as a poker player, disregarding the charity, it's tough to justify playing.
Gotta ask, is it possible to skip the dinner/show, etc and just play the poker tournament?
You are correct on many points. The $150 does go to cover the costs of the food, drinks,entertainment,venue, charity, rounders girls, staff,......
The charity will receive a larger donation proportional to the amount of people attending.
Remember there is also the cost of Dealers, Pit Bosses, table rentals..
and the legal costs which are very high.
As a promoter, and using general business sense, I cannot give you the exact dollar amounts of everything spent or disclose too much information.
Most Toronto charity tournaments pay out nothing and usually cost $500.
I know of many charity tournaments that cost $500, and pay out insignificant non-cash prizes... I do not want to name or knock these events, because they help raise money for charity. They are great events that are fun and entertaining.
To make a similar pricing comparison.
There is a great tournament for $200 "Shoot for a cure" that give guests cocktails and and appetizers. That is it.
There are no cash prizes. 2nd place is a foursome at Shoot For A Cure golf tournament for the winner and one celebrity. 3rd prize is 2 tickets to the hockey hall of fame induction weekend....
There is significant risk to the organizers for setting up this event. This will profit them, but not nearly as much as you would think.
The key questions you have to ask yourself are these.
1. Do I enjoy playing live poker Tournaments?
2. Is it possible for me to place within the top 10%, hopefully the top 5%
3. Will it bring me some joy to help disadvantaged kids?
4. How much do I normally spend on an evening out, including dinner,drinks and entertainment?
I am very confident that this tournament will be well received and enjoyed by all who attend.
Tom, thanks for being as forthcoming as you can, it is appreciated.. I well know the business aspect of it and understand the costs, maybe not to the dollar, but do have a good idea... I hope your event goes well, the organizers make some profit AND the charity does well. If this was one of my key charities I would definitely play in it and I may in any case depending on timing as to when I head off to WSOP. If you get 300 or even approaching 300 it should be a great affair and a real challenge.
1. Attendees wishing to forgo the Improv Performance will have the opportunity to register for the Tournament by paying one hundred Canadian dollars (C$100.00) to the Promoter (the “Improv Avoidance Fee”). The Promoter will begin accepting registrations in this manner at approximately 6:00 p.m., and will continue accepting them up to the commencement of the Tournament. Once the Tournament has begun, no further registrations will be accepted."
I read that as well but the way I read it you still have to pay the $150. for the dinner and entertainment. As I understand it you can then also get your first 2000 chips by doing a 2 min improv OR pay $100.. Like maybe I could start to do the improv then about 30 sec in they would be paying me to get OFF the stage.. lol. Perhaps Tom could elaborate on this a bit more.. It does sound like a fun event.
The improve act is to perform a Britney Spears song for 2 minutes while wearing a wig and dress and dancing!
All words must be sung correctly. If you miss a word, you will be disqualified.You will not be judged on vocal performance, or quality of dance..but if you stop singing or dancing you will be disqualified. This improve must be done in front of all players.They will heckle you. They will laugh at you. You will lose all table respect, and respect in general.
If successful, you will avoid paying the $100 entry fee to the tournament.
This is more for entertainment value than anything. Surely a few people will give it a try. Maybe YOU!
The improve act is to perform a Britney Spears song for 2 minutes while wearing a wig and dress and dancing!
All words must be sung correctly. If you miss a word, you will be disqualified.You will not be judged on vocal performance, or quality of dance..but if you stop singing or dancing you will be disqualified. This improve must be done in front of all players.They will heckle you. They will laugh at you. You will lose all table respect, and respect in general.
If successful, you will avoid paying the $100 entry fee to the tournament.
This is more for entertainment value than anything. Surely a few people will give it a try. Maybe YOU!
Tom
I could do that! But how about if people start to pass out and you have to ask me to get off stage, I get my addon for free too?
Does sound like fun though... And I don't have any respect to lose, I'm old...
I am still a little weary of how legal this whole tournament is. I was under the impression that you need a license from the Alcohol/Gaming comission of Ontario. Now reading their site I was able to pull up this article:
The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario
(AGCO) has received a number of enquiries about the
“legality” of poker tournaments in licensed premises,
such as bars and restaurants. The Criminal Code of Canada,
which is federal legislation, generally prohibits gambling
in Canada unless the activity falls within one of the
exemptions provided for in the Criminal Code. These
exemptions include lottery schemes conducted and managed
by a charitable organization licensed for that purpose
and various lottery schemes conducted and managed
by the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation.
The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario has
regulatory responsibility for certain exemptions, including
charitable gaming (where a charity is issued a licence to
conduct and manage a lottery scheme), casinos, charity
casinos and slot machine facilities at racetracks. The
AGCO regulates those lottery schemes through the
Gaming Control Act and various terms and conditions to
licences.
Not eligible
None of these schemes are applicable to a bar or
restaurant. Abar or restaurant, for example, is not eligible
for a charitable gaming licence. Furthermore, while
licences are issued to eligible charities for a variety of lottery
schemes (such as bingo, break open tickets, and raffles),
no licences are issued for poker tournaments. The
AGCO does not license poker tournaments.
I am under the impression that cash can not be given out as prizes even if it is sanctioned?? I believe allinforthecure.ca has run similar type tournies and have only given out prizes not cash.
There are a lot of "rules" set forth by the AGCO, that nobody follows and are technically illegal:
- Bar Poker Leagues
- Serving Alcohol in an establishment that does not serve food (pretty much every nightclub out there)
- Serving intoxicated people
- Company parties where alcohol is served without a license
Plus many more I am sure.
As a player I don't think you would have anything to worry about, but the risk would be more for the tournament organizers. I do not agree with breaking the law, but at the same time I think we have far too many rules controlling the way we live our lives and if something is for a good cause with some entreprenuer spirit and nobody gets hurt, then I think people should be able to make their own choices about how they want to spend their hard earned money.
There are a lot of "rules" set forth by the AGCO, that nobody follows and are technically illegal:
- Bar Poker Leagues
- Serving Alcohol in an establishment that does not serve food (pretty much every nightclub out there)
- Serving intoxicated people
- Company parties where alcohol is served without a license
Plus many more I am sure.
As a player I don't think you would have anything to worry about, but the risk would be more for the tournament organizers. I do not agree with breaking the law, but at the same time I think we have far too many rules controlling the way we live our lives and if something is for a good cause with some entreprenuer spirit and nobody gets hurt, then I think people should be able to make their own choices about how they want to spend their hard earned money.
Well said. The only thing I would worry would be signing up for this event and then it is shut down and then trying to get back your funds.
I called the Bloorview Kids Foundation and they left me a vm today. They said the Rounders Raise Gala is known to them and on their website. I can't find it there but perhaps you can. I haven't bothered to call the Four Seasons to confirm and don't think I will (already have plans that night.)
Thank you for your concerns. I assure you that this is a fully legal poker tournament. The organizers have spent much time and money engaging the services of top gaming lawyers to ensure that the law is not broken.
Unfortunately, I cannot give you further details on legal specifications.
I thank you for posting your comments. It is important to follow the laws of Ontario.
Dude you play undergrounds all the time. Your far more likely to get busted and charged at one of those than at a charity event at the 4seasons.
Nobody promotes underground games as a "legal" event. I have made that decision and the decision to accept the consequences when I enter these "clubs." However for the most part most of the games I attend are in private homes and not industrial/commercial units (not justifying anything in that statement but I try to attend what I would consider less obvious spots)
I called the Bloorview Kids Foundation and they left me a vm today. They said the Rounders Raise Gala is known to them and on their website. I can't find it there but perhaps you can. I haven't bothered to call the Four Seasons to confirm and don't think I will (already have plans that night.)
I saw it on their site as well. I went there first before I checked the AGCO.
Basically what it comes down to is the fact that with poker as popular as it is and if it was truly ok I don't see why anyone couldn't open up a not for profit corporation that runs poker tournies jump on all these charities get them to sponsor/sanction a poker tourney and run one of these every month. Hell, why not run it right in the Roger's Center. Donate % to chairty and then the corporation could just expense out its staff/supplies etc.
You could easily make a killing running these events because now unlike a private club that takes a rake from a cash game you take a rake from a public tourney.
That is why I did a little more research to question this.
Oh and thank you to TOpokersharks to continue to faciliate Q and A on this event. Much appreciated.
Hi. I would like to inform everyone that the Sat. June 6th Rounders Raise event has been rescheduled for August 22nd. Further details will be disclosed in the very near future and posted on the Rounders Raise website (Rounders Raise Gala). The organizers felt that it was in the best interest of the guests, the charity and the success of the event to move the date. All people who have purchased tickets to the event have been given a full refund and will be offered a discounted ticket to the August event. On behalf of the organizers, I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.
Thank you for all your comments and suggestions to me in relation to this tournament. Your input has influenced the decisions of the organizers in a positive manner. It was made clear to me by many of you that the inclusion and support of a well known company would ease your minds, and instill confidence in the tournament. The organizers are presently in talks with well established gaming companies. I will keep you all updated daily on the details of the August tournament, but generally the event will be taking place in the same fashion.
While slightly disappointed that the event date had to be moved, I am confident it is the right decision. Thank you again. I look forward to reading all your comments and questions.
From reading the site sounds like you have to attend the gala first? Semi-formal wear. Rebuys and addons don't sound like they are part of the prize pool. I think this is a pass for me
Comments
Note that above are estimates only based on what you have provided so far.
edit to add in
**********
Not sure how much experience you have in running large tournaments but if not this link may help you.
Blind Valet - free blind structure creator and poker clock
Just suggesting you are not paying out on the night of the tourney is very odd.
Then reading this...
All prizes must be accepted as awarded. No substitutions are available,
except at the sole discretion of the Promoter, which reserves the right in its
sole discretion to substitute any Prize with a Prize of equal or greater value
and/or specification
...continues to add. I can just see it now "here is a night at a local motel valued at $500", sorry no cash available...take it or leave it.
I think the concept is great. And although $300 per player is not cheap for an unknown entity running a poker tournament, and it is kind of steep on the % taken but what if you don't sell out? What is the actual per centage going to the prize pool?
I would be interested in knowing how much is going towards the people running this event and how much is going to the charity because the cost amounts you are suggesting for particular segments of the nights are amusingly high.
Lots of questions are not being asked and some answers are not on point.
Like I already wrote, I hope it works out but just saying...
The below refers to only the "Ruby Ring", at this time as it is the only prize that isn't cash. Please note on the above that the prizes are called " One (1) cash Prize of" It does not state in brackets that there is a cash equivalent...
These are general legal terms to allow the organizers to add non- cash items to the prize pool.
There is a guaranteed prize pool of $40,000 cash.
The organizers fully intend to provide checks to all winners the day of the event. There are some legal issues that will hopefully be resolved in the near future. I will keep you updated on the progress.
As stated before, this is a live tournament at a classy location. Players will enjoy themselves and receive great value.
Each guest will receive 2 free drinks.
$30 cost
Guests will also get free 3 course meal (appetizers, dinner, desert.)
$80 cost
Comedians and entertainment
$50-$60 cost
An evening at the Four Seasons
[FONT="]
[/FONT] A chance 1/300 to win $12000
$??
The chance to help out less fortunate kids
Priceless!!
Guest celebrities like Sugar Sammy, Jian Ghomeshi, Chris Tessaro and more!!
My name is Tom. I hope to see you at the event. I understand that your being cautious, but this tournament is the real deal.
The tournament director that they have hired ran the 1200 man Full Tilt Meriam Home Foundation tournaments in Montreal.
The tournament should run smoothly. You are correct that it will probably run for about 8 hours.
I will see you there.
Tom
Toronto was targeted as the first place to hold the inaugural event due to the vast amount of poker players.
It is very important to the organizers that every player that participates in the tournament has an enjoyable experience to insure the success of future events.
All your comments and views are appreciated and voiced to the organizers.
I look forward to seeing all of you soon.
Tom
Also as far as cost goes, I gather that the initial $150. goes towards paying for the food, entertainment, etc as well as a certain portion to the charity, correct? Then the additional $100. at the door goes for your initial 2000 chips? I think that most poker players would count on an avg of 1 rebuy and the addon to seriously contend for winning this thing. Thus from a strictly business perspective, (disregarding donating money to the charity which I have no issues with) it is a cost of $150. (dinner/show,etc) + $100 (initial 2000) + $100. (1 rebuy) + $100. (addon)) or likely $450 on avg per poker player. The poker part alone should raise 300 x $300 = $90,000. in revenue, perhaps a little less if some people don't rebuy or add on. Now since you are only paying out $40,000 that seems a little stiff in rake. Thinking strictly as a poker player, disregarding the charity, it's tough to justify playing.
Gotta ask, is it possible to skip the dinner/show, etc and just play the poker tournament?
You are correct on many points. The $150 does go to cover the costs of the food, drinks,entertainment,venue, charity, rounders girls, staff,......
The charity will receive a larger donation proportional to the amount of people attending.
Remember there is also the cost of Dealers, Pit Bosses, table rentals..
and the legal costs which are very high.
As a promoter, and using general business sense, I cannot give you the exact dollar amounts of everything spent or disclose too much information.
Most Toronto charity tournaments pay out nothing and usually cost $500.
I know of many charity tournaments that cost $500, and pay out insignificant non-cash prizes... I do not want to name or knock these events, because they help raise money for charity. They are great events that are fun and entertaining.
To make a similar pricing comparison.
There is a great tournament for $200 "Shoot for a cure" that give guests cocktails and and appetizers. That is it.
There are no cash prizes. 2nd place is a foursome at Shoot For A Cure golf tournament for the winner and one celebrity. 3rd prize is 2 tickets to the hockey hall of fame induction weekend....
There is significant risk to the organizers for setting up this event. This will profit them, but not nearly as much as you would think.
The key questions you have to ask yourself are these.
1. Do I enjoy playing live poker Tournaments?
2. Is it possible for me to place within the top 10%, hopefully the top 5%
3. Will it bring me some joy to help disadvantaged kids?
4. How much do I normally spend on an evening out, including dinner,drinks and entertainment?
I am very confident that this tournament will be well received and enjoyed by all who attend.
Tom
Does this help? I read this as "one bullet" is C$100.00
Excerpt from https://cc.cronomagic.com/rounders/terms.asp
"Improv Avoidance Fee
1. Attendees wishing to forgo the Improv Performance will have the opportunity to register for the Tournament by paying one hundred Canadian dollars (C$100.00) to the Promoter (the “Improv Avoidance Fee”). The Promoter will begin accepting registrations in this manner at approximately 6:00 p.m., and will continue accepting them up to the commencement of the Tournament. Once the Tournament has begun, no further registrations will be accepted."
The improve act is to perform a Britney Spears song for 2 minutes while wearing a wig and dress and dancing!
All words must be sung correctly. If you miss a word, you will be disqualified.You will not be judged on vocal performance, or quality of dance..but if you stop singing or dancing you will be disqualified. This improve must be done in front of all players.They will heckle you. They will laugh at you. You will lose all table respect, and respect in general.
If successful, you will avoid paying the $100 entry fee to the tournament.
This is more for entertainment value than anything. Surely a few people will give it a try. Maybe YOU!
Check out the below links!
YouTube - DERRICK BARRY AS BRITNEY SPEARS ON ABC'S THE NEXT BEST THING
YouTube - Derrick Barry (Britney Spears) - America's Got Talent
Tom
Does sound like fun though... And I don't have any respect to lose, I'm old...
LOL.. you should make that your sig
http://www.agco.on.ca/pdf/Non-Forms/LL2005_Vol_5_Issue_1e.pdf
Now on page 10 it states:
The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario
(AGCO) has received a number of enquiries about the
“legality” of poker tournaments in licensed premises,
such as bars and restaurants. The Criminal Code of Canada,
which is federal legislation, generally prohibits gambling
in Canada unless the activity falls within one of the
exemptions provided for in the Criminal Code. These
exemptions include lottery schemes conducted and managed
by a charitable organization licensed for that purpose
and various lottery schemes conducted and managed
by the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation.
The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario has
regulatory responsibility for certain exemptions, including
charitable gaming (where a charity is issued a licence to
conduct and manage a lottery scheme), casinos, charity
casinos and slot machine facilities at racetracks. The
AGCO regulates those lottery schemes through the
Gaming Control Act and various terms and conditions to
licences.
Not eligible
None of these schemes are applicable to a bar or
restaurant. Abar or restaurant, for example, is not eligible
for a charitable gaming licence. Furthermore, while
licences are issued to eligible charities for a variety of lottery
schemes (such as bingo, break open tickets, and raffles),
no licences are issued for poker tournaments. The
AGCO does not license poker tournaments.
I am under the impression that cash can not be given out as prizes even if it is sanctioned?? I believe allinforthecure.ca has run similar type tournies and have only given out prizes not cash.
- Bar Poker Leagues
- Serving Alcohol in an establishment that does not serve food (pretty much every nightclub out there)
- Serving intoxicated people
- Company parties where alcohol is served without a license
Plus many more I am sure.
As a player I don't think you would have anything to worry about, but the risk would be more for the tournament organizers. I do not agree with breaking the law, but at the same time I think we have far too many rules controlling the way we live our lives and if something is for a good cause with some entreprenuer spirit and nobody gets hurt, then I think people should be able to make their own choices about how they want to spend their hard earned money.
Well said. The only thing I would worry would be signing up for this event and then it is shut down and then trying to get back your funds.
Dude you play undergrounds all the time. Your far more likely to get busted and charged at one of those than at a charity event at the 4seasons.
Unfortunately, I cannot give you further details on legal specifications.
I thank you for posting your comments. It is important to follow the laws of Ontario.
I look forward to seeing you there.
Tom
Nobody promotes underground games as a "legal" event. I have made that decision and the decision to accept the consequences when I enter these "clubs." However for the most part most of the games I attend are in private homes and not industrial/commercial units (not justifying anything in that statement but I try to attend what I would consider less obvious spots)
I saw it on their site as well. I went there first before I checked the AGCO.
Basically what it comes down to is the fact that with poker as popular as it is and if it was truly ok I don't see why anyone couldn't open up a not for profit corporation that runs poker tournies jump on all these charities get them to sponsor/sanction a poker tourney and run one of these every month. Hell, why not run it right in the Roger's Center. Donate % to chairty and then the corporation could just expense out its staff/supplies etc.
You could easily make a killing running these events because now unlike a private club that takes a rake from a cash game you take a rake from a public tourney.
That is why I did a little more research to question this.
Oh and thank you to TOpokersharks to continue to faciliate Q and A on this event. Much appreciated.
Thank you for all your comments and suggestions to me in relation to this tournament. Your input has influenced the decisions of the organizers in a positive manner. It was made clear to me by many of you that the inclusion and support of a well known company would ease your minds, and instill confidence in the tournament. The organizers are presently in talks with well established gaming companies. I will keep you all updated daily on the details of the August tournament, but generally the event will be taking place in the same fashion.
While slightly disappointed that the event date had to be moved, I am confident it is the right decision. Thank you again. I look forward to reading all your comments and questions.
Tom