First of all, it is a LEGAL system. Justice is merely a bonus, when/if it occurs. This idea of a "justice" as part of the system is a canard, and always has been..
i guess the americans have me saying justice....and although i agree id point out the many feel it should be about justice....but thats pretty much based on revenge and we both agree i think that it should have nothing to do with it....
Secondly, virtually all systems of law throughout the world devolve back to one form of religious practice or another, so you will never truly be able to separate the two.
It would be very hard to separate them, but they have to be....the first step in doing so would be to fully admit we can't have fair law if its tied to religion
As for acceptance, that is a two way street. This country accepts a wide variety of religious practices. In return, it is incumbent on the adherents of those practices (imo) to accept that others may not hold their views on a given issue.
different topic but should there not be a place where there isn't a base belief that you must compromise too? were truly not free in that regard...
Your example from the US is faulty (unless you were being sarcastic), as it is the US Constitution which says what is right/legal, and not the government. The US government could enact a law that states, "All virgin women must be turned over to darbday on their 18th birthday for a period of 12 hours," but the Constitution would nullify it outright.
my sarcasm was along the lines of bin laden bombed us so support us invading iraq or you love terrorists. but as for the constitution ill use the gay marriages as my counterpoint. its clear religion and religious beliefs keep these laws standing....what i mean is the government should not be able to impose laws on this....its a human right...there should be no vote....letting straight people vote on that is like letting white people vote on black slavery.....
should we continue beating around the bush or should we just get right into all the world problem are from giving isreal to the jews and the Palestinians (or is it Muslims)...and creating great civil unrest so larger powers can play 'Risk' and get the pieces moving.
Mark is right, we are really just circling each other, throwing jabs here . . .
Final word for me. You mentioned the marriage issue (gay/straight/whatever). I do not consider marriage a Human Right for ANYONE. I think people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit in their relationships towards others, within the parameters of the laws wherein they reside. I do NOT think that sensible government should have ANYTHING to do with marriage, as it pertains to your comment. "Marriage" should remain the province of the religions, and the government should have no opinion on the matter. Which is to say, if two guys wish to partner up, and refer to themselves as a married couple, there should be no legal bar to that arrangement, and all it entails (inheritance, power of attorney, etc.). That is where the government trips over the "religion" issue.
I don't think many Christians 'accept killing', and I think you should probably tread carefully insinuating something as big as a lack of intelligence for an entire ( also very large ) people group.
this thought comes from the understanding that in the past, christians and god loving people were involved in much killing throughout history whether for punishment, witchery, war, or whatever....the correlation that was between the lines was why was Christianity wrong then but right now. its a matter of perspective, and 100 years from now, the general christian beliefs from now will look just as bad as they do looking back hundreds of years ago from today.
And i do believe that christianity shows lack of true intelligence....the understanding that creating an us and a them is the cause of suffering. i am a little biased though as the christians in my high school barely made it through.....maybe im stupid though...
I know I've derailed here a bit, but people forget that almost every culture is rooted in a religion, in North America that religion is Christianity. The 10 commandments are basically the basis for our legal system, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc. You can discredit this all you want, but they are pretty good guidelines, and there will probably almost always be a tie from the legal system to religion in that regard.
thou shalt not kill........so we'll kill you......the basis is fully 100% hypocritical and always will be till we serperate it and build law based on human compassion rather than a religion that is dead and static, does not change with the times......
i agree that it would be hard to separate and there may always be a tie....but i think its clear there should be no tie......when we agree on that as a society we can take a step in a better direction....
If you could explain to me how religion is hampering Canada's justice system I would probably be willing to eat crow on this one, but I cannot see any bearing other then the correlation of some of the laws laid out in the Bible and some of the laws which are enforced in Canada. ( I don't believe the topic gay marriage to be an issue of justice, or at least not the type we are discussing in this thread ).
I am partially referring to us newly beginning to mirror the us and there moral view on state interference with our lives. the root is in the mix of religion with law. this includes the states have prayer in some schools.....this has changed but only recently.
the gay marriage thing stem from religions influence in law, state should not have influence in personal matter that don't effect others...this includes smoking and growing weed for personal use....its ludicrous that its even allowed to be an issue and the only reason is because there are some people who still believe government have a right to enforce morals based on belief......that is all
Mark is right, we are really just circling each other, throwing jabs here . . .
Final word for me. You mentioned the marriage issue (gay/straight/whatever). I do not consider marriage a Human Right for ANYONE. I think people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit in their relationships towards others, within the parameters of the laws wherein they reside. I do NOT think that sensible government should have ANYTHING to do with marriage, as it pertains to your comment. "Marriage" should remain the province of the religions, and the government should have no opinion on the matter. Which is to say, if two guys wish to partner up, and refer to themselves as a married couple, there should be no legal bar to that arrangement, and all it entails (inheritance, power of attorney, etc.). That is where the government trips over the "religion" issue.
i am sure we agree here.....they should be recognized by the state in all pertinent matters and have equal rights... they only thing is churches obviously don't have to agree to marry them.....
marriage here refers to rights such as taxes and inheritance yes and all that.....
but my point is much like yours that this shouldn't even have been discussed.....
the conservatives have tried to appeal this right and have it taken away....
many people still feel its wrong because god said so....these people all lack intelligence....maybe its not all Christians....when gay was wrong you went to hell....now that its accepted.....Christians ruin the world....
You guys are kinda making me regret reviving this thread.
Seriously, aside from the tldr factor, y'all are just regurgitating the same shit we've heard over and over.
Bottom line: Capital punishment is a bad idea, and if you can't see that you're either foolish or stubborn.
Mark
Actually there is nothing wrong with disccusing this issue. No one is forced to read or respond. Positive discussion is good for all who care to read. Personally, this is one of the better sections on the forum. For me anyway. I have bad beats, written about bad beats made my own bad beats on people, it's not that I am sick of poker, I enjoy a good discussion on a variety of topics, this one included.
fool·ish –adjective
1. resulting from or showing a lack of sense; ill-considered; unwise: a foolish action, a foolish speech.
2. lacking forethought or caution.
3. trifling, insignificant, or paltry.
So Mark explain why the DP is foolish according to the definition given.
According to CBC poll taken,
18 Mar 2010 ... Canadians split on pot, death penalty: poll ... Forty-six per cent do not support the reintroduction of capital punishment while 40 per cent do. ...
So are you saying almost half the country is foolish or stubborn?
You see this comment is the kind that is not needed. I don't know who you are your background, your education but i suppose you can back up this comment?
Many people on this forum know me, know I was a Pastor for 5 years, spent 7 years in theological studies doing under grad and grad work. You may not know that about me, but it is ok for you to question my intelligence or "lack of intelligence" as you put it?
Why is it when people are having a discussion they make it personal when someone doesn't agree with their opinion? Here we have Mark saying almost half the country is foolish because of their opinion is in opposition to his opinion. Or stubborn because they don't agree with him.
Now we have another guy saying that Christians “lack intelligence”? Why because they have a faith in God? Because we view Bible as absolute truth? Do you really want to go there? Start I new thread explaining your lack of intelligence phrase Christians and I will respond.
The other point I want to make is this. All killers are not created equal. I know the cops and courts can mess up and sometimes on purpose. But I also know there are convicted killers who spend 23 hours a day locked away for what purpose? For what is the end goal in keeping these 3 people for starters?
Clifford Olson, who murdered a total of eleven children.
There was also the team of Paul Bernardo and his wife Karla Homolka (who is now out of prison by the way) who killed three teenage girls, including Homolka’s sister.
Canada’s worst accused serial killer, Robert Pickton was charged and found guilty of the first-degree murders of some twenty-seven women.
If someone could respond. I agree with Milo, not all killers are equal. But these three there is no doubt are guilty. Why shouldn’t they forfeit their life?
All you have to do is look to the crucifixion. Two men were sentence to die with Christ on the cross, and he saw fit to allow the government to carry out the laws of the land and have these men executed. And to the one thief He says, “Today thou will be with Me in paradise”.
Actually I just thought he was hot and wanted to take them home with me.
I believe half of the population is below average intelligence, and I'm not wrong about that.
Death penalty doesn't make sense. The biggest arguments for it that makes any sense have been disproven.
A: Money - nope, cheaper to incarcerate them
B: Prevention / Deterrent - nope, doesn't work
C: Safety of the public - incarceration is safer. Escapes are rare, and less overall damaging than killing an innocent.
Only other potential reasons are petty revenge or some convoluted reasoning based on ancient belief systems.
I believe half of the population is below average intelligence, and I'm not wrong about that.
Where's my brother? Calling Math Police!!
Where one individual is considered exactly of average intelligence, your statement is false!
On topic: Our legal system is not a mess because it is tied to religion, it is a mess because it is tied to the political system!
Edit: on math part, this is but one example where your statement is false, there are others, and I beleive that on the earth, it is easy to show that the majority of people are of above average intelligence!
We were discussing our population (i.e. people in Canada). So therefore that sets both the boundaries of the sample size, and rough statistical relevance of one person (1 out of 33.4 million) is null. Accounting for the fact that a significant percentage of people COULD be exactly average, I'll change my statement slightly
NEARLY half of the population is below average intelligence.
many people still feel its wrong because god said so....these people all lack intelligence....maybe its not all Christians....when gay was wrong you went to hell....now that its accepted.....Christians ruin the world....
''These people all lack intelligence..'' The Dr's, the scientists, the theologians and writers like Malcom Gladwell and CS Lewis , the university professors, the archeologists, the inventors, people like Billy Graham who have the ears of many world leaders, hell even Daniel Negreanu claims to be a born again Christian. But all of these people lack what you would call ''true intelligence''.
With broad sweeping statements like this you aren't doing yourself any favors in the discussion of intelligence.
''These people all lack intelligence..'' The Dr's, the scientists, the theologians and writers like Malcom Gladwell and CS Lewis , the university professors, the archeologists, the inventors, people like Billy Graham who have the ears of many world leaders, hell even Daniel Negreanu claims to be a born again Christian. But all of these people lack what you would call ''true intelligence''.
With broad sweeping statements like this you aren't doing yourself any favors in the discussion of intelligence.
id be glad to chat up a pastor cause i have some questions, they aren't confronting or anything like "if god was real the how come such and such". I am actually not against the beliefs really.
my statement about 'these people' is actually referring to the type of people that believe since god says gay is wrong (i made a generalization about what god says and i don't exactly know so you can't tweak that if you want) then it should be illegal.......'these' people are less intelligent...because the laws shouldn't be made off religion.
There is also the cultural movement in how Christians were typically more involved in violent affairs through history that Christians nowadays would say is not christian-like..... isn't this true? this isn't a factual statement from me but it seems so.....and although the religious text hasn't changed the christian culture seems to have.....
but how about this there are many dumb people out there, or less intellegent (maybe im one) so if there are alot of christians then many of them could likely less intelligent. but when you mix the two the product is put killers to death, ban gay marriage (by state not church, ban by church is okay), take over iraq, kill people in Afghanistan, slavery, witch burning...
Darb, you seem to be less than indifferent when it comes to religion. Yes, there have been terrible things done in the name of many faiths. That does not mean that faith, in and of itself, is to blame. The basis of most of the major religions is a simple one: treat others as you would like them to treat you. Problems arise when people take obscure passages from ancient texts and try to interpret their meaning in a modern setting. It just does not work that way.
There are passages in the Bible extolling the virtues of slavery, the abuse of women, and the prostituting of children. That is, if you read them literally. I am sure the same can be said of the Torah, or the Q'uran (I have not read the former, but have read about half of the latter). With regard to the Bible, you must interpret the Old Testament readings through what is learned in the New Testament. It is only through understanding the two as a whole, that you can begin to interpret the Word of God, at least as far as Catholics are concerned.
As for what Mark said, I agree with him: There are a lot of stupid people in the world. There are also a lot of smart people, too. The problem lies in the middle third, where people are smart, but not smart enough to realize how dumb they are, too. ???
id be glad to chat up a pastor cause i have some questions, they aren't confronting or anything like "if god was real the how come such and such". I am actually not against the beliefs really.
my statement about 'these people' is actually referring to the type of people that believe since god says gay is wrong (i made a generalization about what god says and i don't exactly know so you can't tweak that if you want) then it should be illegal.......'these' people are less intelligent...because the laws shouldn't be made off religion.
There is also the cultural movement in how Christians were typically more involved in violent affairs through history that Christians nowadays would say is not christian-like..... isn't this true? this isn't a factual statement from me but it seems so.....and although the religious text hasn't changed the christian culture seems to have.....
but how about this there are many dumb people out there, or less intellegent (maybe im one) so if there are alot of christians then many of them could likely less intelligent. but when you mix the two the product is put killers to death, ban gay marriage (by state not church, ban by church is okay), take over iraq, kill people in Afghanistan, slavery, witch burning...
Are Christians the ones killing people in Iraq and trying to take over Afghanistan? I wasn't aware of this. I'm not sure which wars you are talking about other then the crusades which was not so much about religion as it was about expanding the British empire ( a lot of people have done things in the name of God to try and justify what they are doing,especially back then).. Yes maybe some Christians burned witches but I'm sure non-Christians had their part in that as well, don't forget thousands of Christians have been burned and crucified during Nero's reign in Rome. If we go back far enough through history we see that most races and religious groups have received persecution, yet we tend to focus most clearly on Christianity as it is the main religion in North America. We totally forget that there is religious groups ( with millions of members ) on our planet today that openly admit their end goal is to eliminate our societies (the western world, and Israel) from the face of the planet.
You are missing a lot of the big picture, there were many key Christians involved in the abolition of slavery and there are Christians that are opposed to the death penalty today. A large portion of foreign aid and relief actually comes from churches and religious groups. I been to Christian owned and operated orphanages in many impoverished countries, people who dedicate their lives to helping others in less fortunate circumstances.
To give you a background of where I'm coming from, I grew up in a strong Christian home, both of my parents are extremely intelligent and well read people who have also done very well for themselves financially. I was the youngest of 5 children and we have all gone very different directions with our lives, I currently would loosely classify myself as a Christian as I believe that God created the earth and that he had a son Jesus, past that there is a lot of things I disagree with in regards to the church and doctrine and other Christians ( some even issues we have talked about ). I am extremely well traveled and like to think I know a fair amount about other religions and cultures.
Here is a question for you and I want you to know I am not insinuating a right answer, it is actually something that I am working through right now but I want you to think about this. What is less intelligent? To claim you're a Christian and believe in the Bible but choose not to support what it says about the act of homosexuality ( again I want to clarify I have not once in this thread stated I am against homosexuality or gay marriage ), or to claim to be a Christian and believe in the Bible, and take it in it's entirety even the parts you don't really like?
I am not going to argue with you anymore because it's not worth it, it's not really what this thread was about, and I feel like a lot of what you are saying is mostly just the typical cue card rhetoric chalk full assumptions you have pulled out of your hat or gleaned from common misconceptions that atheists/agnostics throw around like they are factual.
Note I am not discrediting your intelligence in anyway,
Here is a question for you and I want you to know I am not insinuating a right answer, it is actually something that I am working through right now but I want you to think about this. What is less intelligent? To claim you're a Christian and believe in the Bible but choose not to support what it says about the act of homosexuality ( again I want to clarify I have not once in this thread stated I am against homosexuality or gay marriage ), or to claim to be a Christian and believe in the Bible, and take it in it's entirety even the parts you don't really like?
I am not going to argue with you anymore because it's not worth it, it's not really what this thread was about, and I feel like a lot of what you are saying is mostly just the typical cue card rhetoric chalk full assumptions you have pulled out of your hat or gleaned from common misconceptions that atheists/agnostics throw around like they are factual.
Note I am not discrediting your intelligence in anyway,
no i don't want to argue i like what you said at the start of this post (just didn't quote it)....our wars and conflicts are all religious and belief based even if i because of Christianity...its not the bible or God and Jesus fault its the misinterpretation of him.....i agree with that....
religion should not influence the law yet it does even if you say because the laymakers are religious......it doesn't allow every man to be treated equal....
as long as there is a division between you and i there will always be conflict
Comments
i guess the americans have me saying justice....and although i agree id point out the many feel it should be about justice....but thats pretty much based on revenge and we both agree i think that it should have nothing to do with it....
It would be very hard to separate them, but they have to be....the first step in doing so would be to fully admit we can't have fair law if its tied to religion
different topic but should there not be a place where there isn't a base belief that you must compromise too? were truly not free in that regard...
my sarcasm was along the lines of bin laden bombed us so support us invading iraq or you love terrorists. but as for the constitution ill use the gay marriages as my counterpoint. its clear religion and religious beliefs keep these laws standing....what i mean is the government should not be able to impose laws on this....its a human right...there should be no vote....letting straight people vote on that is like letting white people vote on black slavery.....
should we continue beating around the bush or should we just get right into all the world problem are from giving isreal to the jews and the Palestinians (or is it Muslims)...and creating great civil unrest so larger powers can play 'Risk' and get the pieces moving.
Final word for me. You mentioned the marriage issue (gay/straight/whatever). I do not consider marriage a Human Right for ANYONE. I think people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit in their relationships towards others, within the parameters of the laws wherein they reside. I do NOT think that sensible government should have ANYTHING to do with marriage, as it pertains to your comment. "Marriage" should remain the province of the religions, and the government should have no opinion on the matter. Which is to say, if two guys wish to partner up, and refer to themselves as a married couple, there should be no legal bar to that arrangement, and all it entails (inheritance, power of attorney, etc.). That is where the government trips over the "religion" issue.
this thought comes from the understanding that in the past, christians and god loving people were involved in much killing throughout history whether for punishment, witchery, war, or whatever....the correlation that was between the lines was why was Christianity wrong then but right now. its a matter of perspective, and 100 years from now, the general christian beliefs from now will look just as bad as they do looking back hundreds of years ago from today.
And i do believe that christianity shows lack of true intelligence....the understanding that creating an us and a them is the cause of suffering. i am a little biased though as the christians in my high school barely made it through.....maybe im stupid though...
yes is my point.....generally the preachers would be the only ones informed enough (and others too) yet so many preach and teach.
thou shalt not kill........so we'll kill you......the basis is fully 100% hypocritical and always will be till we serperate it and build law based on human compassion rather than a religion that is dead and static, does not change with the times......
i agree that it would be hard to separate and there may always be a tie....but i think its clear there should be no tie......when we agree on that as a society we can take a step in a better direction....
I am partially referring to us newly beginning to mirror the us and there moral view on state interference with our lives. the root is in the mix of religion with law. this includes the states have prayer in some schools.....this has changed but only recently.
the gay marriage thing stem from religions influence in law, state should not have influence in personal matter that don't effect others...this includes smoking and growing weed for personal use....its ludicrous that its even allowed to be an issue and the only reason is because there are some people who still believe government have a right to enforce morals based on belief......that is all
i am sure we agree here.....they should be recognized by the state in all pertinent matters and have equal rights... they only thing is churches obviously don't have to agree to marry them.....
marriage here refers to rights such as taxes and inheritance yes and all that.....
but my point is much like yours that this shouldn't even have been discussed.....
the conservatives have tried to appeal this right and have it taken away....
many people still feel its wrong because god said so....these people all lack intelligence....maybe its not all Christians....when gay was wrong you went to hell....now that its accepted.....Christians ruin the world....
Actually there is nothing wrong with disccusing this issue. No one is forced to read or respond. Positive discussion is good for all who care to read. Personally, this is one of the better sections on the forum. For me anyway. I have bad beats, written about bad beats made my own bad beats on people, it's not that I am sick of poker, I enjoy a good discussion on a variety of topics, this one included.
fool·ish –adjective
1. resulting from or showing a lack of sense; ill-considered; unwise: a foolish action, a foolish speech.
2. lacking forethought or caution.
3. trifling, insignificant, or paltry.
So Mark explain why the DP is foolish according to the definition given.
According to CBC poll taken,
18 Mar 2010 ... Canadians split on pot, death penalty: poll ... Forty-six per cent do not support the reintroduction of capital punishment while 40 per cent do. ...
So are you saying almost half the country is foolish or stubborn?
Brent
Many people on this forum know me, know I was a Pastor for 5 years, spent 7 years in theological studies doing under grad and grad work. You may not know that about me, but it is ok for you to question my intelligence or "lack of intelligence" as you put it?
Why is it when people are having a discussion they make it personal when someone doesn't agree with their opinion? Here we have Mark saying almost half the country is foolish because of their opinion is in opposition to his opinion. Or stubborn because they don't agree with him.
Now we have another guy saying that Christians “lack intelligence”? Why because they have a faith in God? Because we view Bible as absolute truth? Do you really want to go there? Start I new thread explaining your lack of intelligence phrase Christians and I will respond.
The other point I want to make is this. All killers are not created equal. I know the cops and courts can mess up and sometimes on purpose. But I also know there are convicted killers who spend 23 hours a day locked away for what purpose? For what is the end goal in keeping these 3 people for starters?
Clifford Olson, who murdered a total of eleven children.
There was also the team of Paul Bernardo and his wife Karla Homolka (who is now out of prison by the way) who killed three teenage girls, including Homolka’s sister.
Canada’s worst accused serial killer, Robert Pickton was charged and found guilty of the first-degree murders of some twenty-seven women.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/463703/canadas_most_infamous_serial_killers.html
If someone could respond. I agree with Milo, not all killers are equal. But these three there is no doubt are guilty. Why shouldn’t they forfeit their life?
Brent
I blame this thread . . .
post of the year
lmfao
Actually I just thought he was hot and wanted to take them home with me.
I believe half of the population is below average intelligence, and I'm not wrong about that.
Death penalty doesn't make sense. The biggest arguments for it that makes any sense have been disproven.
A: Money - nope, cheaper to incarcerate them
B: Prevention / Deterrent - nope, doesn't work
C: Safety of the public - incarceration is safer. Escapes are rare, and less overall damaging than killing an innocent.
Only other potential reasons are petty revenge or some convoluted reasoning based on ancient belief systems.
Mark
Where's my brother? Calling Math Police!!
Where one individual is considered exactly of average intelligence, your statement is false!
On topic: Our legal system is not a mess because it is tied to religion, it is a mess because it is tied to the political system!
Edit: on math part, this is but one example where your statement is false, there are others, and I beleive that on the earth, it is easy to show that the majority of people are of above average intelligence!
so much good here
NEARLY half of the population is below average intelligence.
Mark
''These people all lack intelligence..'' The Dr's, the scientists, the theologians and writers like Malcom Gladwell and CS Lewis , the university professors, the archeologists, the inventors, people like Billy Graham who have the ears of many world leaders, hell even Daniel Negreanu claims to be a born again Christian. But all of these people lack what you would call ''true intelligence''.
With broad sweeping statements like this you aren't doing yourself any favors in the discussion of intelligence.
id be glad to chat up a pastor cause i have some questions, they aren't confronting or anything like "if god was real the how come such and such". I am actually not against the beliefs really.
my statement about 'these people' is actually referring to the type of people that believe since god says gay is wrong (i made a generalization about what god says and i don't exactly know so you can't tweak that if you want) then it should be illegal.......'these' people are less intelligent...because the laws shouldn't be made off religion.
There is also the cultural movement in how Christians were typically more involved in violent affairs through history that Christians nowadays would say is not christian-like..... isn't this true? this isn't a factual statement from me but it seems so.....and although the religious text hasn't changed the christian culture seems to have.....
but how about this there are many dumb people out there, or less intellegent (maybe im one) so if there are alot of christians then many of them could likely less intelligent. but when you mix the two the product is put killers to death, ban gay marriage (by state not church, ban by church is okay), take over iraq, kill people in Afghanistan, slavery, witch burning...
There are passages in the Bible extolling the virtues of slavery, the abuse of women, and the prostituting of children. That is, if you read them literally. I am sure the same can be said of the Torah, or the Q'uran (I have not read the former, but have read about half of the latter). With regard to the Bible, you must interpret the Old Testament readings through what is learned in the New Testament. It is only through understanding the two as a whole, that you can begin to interpret the Word of God, at least as far as Catholics are concerned.
As for what Mark said, I agree with him: There are a lot of stupid people in the world. There are also a lot of smart people, too. The problem lies in the middle third, where people are smart, but not smart enough to realize how dumb they are, too. ???
Are Christians the ones killing people in Iraq and trying to take over Afghanistan? I wasn't aware of this. I'm not sure which wars you are talking about other then the crusades which was not so much about religion as it was about expanding the British empire ( a lot of people have done things in the name of God to try and justify what they are doing,especially back then).. Yes maybe some Christians burned witches but I'm sure non-Christians had their part in that as well, don't forget thousands of Christians have been burned and crucified during Nero's reign in Rome. If we go back far enough through history we see that most races and religious groups have received persecution, yet we tend to focus most clearly on Christianity as it is the main religion in North America. We totally forget that there is religious groups ( with millions of members ) on our planet today that openly admit their end goal is to eliminate our societies (the western world, and Israel) from the face of the planet.
You are missing a lot of the big picture, there were many key Christians involved in the abolition of slavery and there are Christians that are opposed to the death penalty today. A large portion of foreign aid and relief actually comes from churches and religious groups. I been to Christian owned and operated orphanages in many impoverished countries, people who dedicate their lives to helping others in less fortunate circumstances.
To give you a background of where I'm coming from, I grew up in a strong Christian home, both of my parents are extremely intelligent and well read people who have also done very well for themselves financially. I was the youngest of 5 children and we have all gone very different directions with our lives, I currently would loosely classify myself as a Christian as I believe that God created the earth and that he had a son Jesus, past that there is a lot of things I disagree with in regards to the church and doctrine and other Christians ( some even issues we have talked about ). I am extremely well traveled and like to think I know a fair amount about other religions and cultures.
Here is a question for you and I want you to know I am not insinuating a right answer, it is actually something that I am working through right now but I want you to think about this. What is less intelligent? To claim you're a Christian and believe in the Bible but choose not to support what it says about the act of homosexuality ( again I want to clarify I have not once in this thread stated I am against homosexuality or gay marriage ), or to claim to be a Christian and believe in the Bible, and take it in it's entirety even the parts you don't really like?
I am not going to argue with you anymore because it's not worth it, it's not really what this thread was about, and I feel like a lot of what you are saying is mostly just the typical cue card rhetoric chalk full assumptions you have pulled out of your hat or gleaned from common misconceptions that atheists/agnostics throw around like they are factual.
Note I am not discrediting your intelligence in anyway,
i am for religion and against it.....but what you said i am down with
Neither of these sounds right....
no i don't want to argue i like what you said at the start of this post (just didn't quote it)....our wars and conflicts are all religious and belief based even if i because of Christianity...its not the bible or God and Jesus fault its the misinterpretation of him.....i agree with that....
religion should not influence the law yet it does even if you say because the laymakers are religious......it doesn't allow every man to be treated equal....
as long as there is a division between you and i there will always be conflict